I'll Never go to Florida Again

[Erieau]

Sorry to digress, but...

You were in Wheatley, Roger? By gum, that's 25 minutes from my house!
Did you have boats built at Hike Metals, perchance? Across the way from the stinky Omstead foods fish plant?
That's a great shop they have there. I've seen some very cool boats being welded together.

Neat. Just neat.

 

[Roger Long]

Did you have boats built at Hike Metals, perchance?

Yes, this one:

http://www.umces.edu/research-discovery/rv-rachel-carson

 

[Roger Long]

Since you started the lynch mob why don't you set them straight Roger?

Done.

I'd be mailing you a crow pie except that there is still wiggle room in the statute. Maine does have a number system for non-documented vessels and I assume it it federally approved. The state does not have registration for documented vessels other than local excise tax and a decal. I'll bet you could spend five figures arguing this in court in FL if you decided to contest a ticket.

 

[Jimm]

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes...ml&StatuteYear=2010&Title=->2010->Chapter 327


328.58 Reciprocity of nonresident or alien vessels.—The owner of any vessel already covered by a registration number in full force and effect which has been awarded by:
(1) Another state pursuant to a federally approved numbering system of another state;
(2) The United States Coast Guard in a state without a federally approved numbering system; or
(3) The United States Coast Guard for a federally documented vessel with a valid registration in full force and effect from another state,
shall record the number with the Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles prior to operating, using, or storing the vessel on the waters of this state in excess of the 90-day reciprocity period provided for in this chapter. Such recordation shall be pursuant to the procedure required for the award of an original registration number, except that no additional or substitute registration number shall be issued if the vessel owner maintains the previously awarded registration number in full force and effect.
History.—s. 1, ch. 59-399; s. 1, ch. 65-361; s. 6, ch. 84-184; s. 57, ch. 96-413; s. 16, ch. 99-289; s. 25, ch. 2009-86.
Note.—Former s. 371.081; s. 327.16.

As one who intends to Document my boat and likely travel the waters of Florida. Seems an expert opionion is warranted - just not sure who should be relied on to provide it.
As I understand the Documentation rules, I am not obligated to register my boat in Maryland, in fact am prohibited from displaying MD registration numbers on the boat. That seems in direct conflict with Florida's requirements. If the issue is only whether sales tax has been paid (somewhere), and proof is carried on the boat, where's the problem?
Whether deserved on not, Florida's rule seem very unfriendly compared to States around the Chesapeake, and clearly can discourage traveling there by boat - with consequent loss of revenue to the State. The policy confuses me.

 

[Rick Webb]

Florida Does NOT Require State Registration Numbers on Docum

Nor on visiting vessels.

They do reqire them to be registered. If a visitor is in the state for more than 90 days the vessel must pay the registration fee as well.

What is displayed is just the registration sticker, the number on the registration sticker is the documentation number. The registration sticker does not even need to be on the hull, it can be placed on a window or windshield on the port side, so that it may be removed easily later.

 

[TomY]

Less danger of it now anyway but I just learned this from Cruiser's Net:

My state (Maine) doesn't register documented vessels so I couldn't comply even if I wanted to. With all the other crap the state deals out to cruisers and beautiful as Georgia is, I'll stay north of the border when I go down again.

I know you can get a "Sojourner's Permit" (see Cruiser's Net) for 90 days but screw'em if I have to do paperwork just to visit their state and leave money there. Ugly state. Not worth it.

http://cruisersnet.net/

That's kind of harsh Roger. Florida is a beautiful state with a diverse coastline for most of us that head south from NE. It has a climate problem that has allowed too many derelict boats to become homes unfortunately. We don't have that in Maine simply because of our climate. Most states will hit you for fees unless you can prove tax paid somewhere.

I think you'd find once you sailed through, the laws are mostly local reaction to derelict boat problems some harbors have had and are dealing with today. We saw it first hand 2 decades ago, and that problem was nasty in parts(I hear it's improved). Local people treated us very well and could see we were visiting sailors, and the appreciate that. I have no problem with time restrictions if that assures my right to anchor along any coastline.

Leave it open for those of use that may come down again! Most of want to get to the Bahamas, and we need Florida, to beat the Gulf stream, and to wait for weather.

 

[Buck420]

Nor on visiting vessels.

They do reqire them to be registered. If a visitor is in the state for more than 90 days the vessel must pay the registration fee as well.

What is displayed is just the registration sticker, the number on the registration sticker is the documentation number. The registration sticker does not even need to be on the hull, it can be placed on a window or windshield on the port side, so that it may be removed easily later.

Rick,

What is the fee for the "sojourner" (regristration) "sticker".

 

[WayneH]

Texas requires me to register my federally documented boat but does not require me to display my registration numbers on her. Only have to display my biannual registration sticker up forward. I've made several trips to northwest Florida and have never been hassled.

We come for the water. Beautiful clear water. The standard joke on the Texas coast is "If you can see the bottom, it's toooo late."

 

[Chris Burti]

The law as applied to short term sojourners probaly violates the Commerce clause of the US Constitution and is likely unenforceable as applied unless they ticket unregistered commercial vessels as well. They will ticket somebody with the wherewithal to challenge it on principal and, eventually, it will go away.

 

[Rick Webb]

Someone sure has a Bug in his Butt About Florida

If he is never going to come here why does he care?

I’d caution anyone taking my word or of anyone else to what is required for your particular circumstance. Talk to the Tax Accessors office in the county you are going to be staying and find out what they say. Don’t be surprised if they are not sure many of them do not deal with boats often and this whole discussion is a bit out on the fringe of their normal day to day actions. Many of the clerks in those offices do not know for example you can register your boat as an antique at quite a discount if it is more than thirty years old or that military folks moving in may keep their current out of state registration until it expires. I’ve read the statute and the informational pamphlet and the forms involved it seems pretty clear to me. The hang up seems to be in the internal procedure instructions available on line. I also called and spoke to our county’s Tax Accessors office and played as dumb as I could(not a real stretch) and everything was described to me exactly as I understood it. The advantage of the Sojourners Permit seems to be not paying sales tax if you had not where you bought the boat. If you paid sales tax when you bought the boat there does not seem to be any difference between the Soujourners Permit and registration.
I am not sure why I have spent so much time on this issue except that it is a subject that I teach and advise on as a member of the Coast Guard Auxiliary. I am satisfied that what I understand is correct. It is also exactly how it seems to work around here. I know there are some overly ambitious “Barney Fifes” in other parts of the state both on the water and on the road. I’ve met a few of them but that is the exception not the rule. So if you decide to stay away we do not care there are more than enough folks who will take your place.

From the OP link:

http://www.paradiseyachtsales.net/CruisingCenter2.html

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Sojourner Registration. ​

If your plans include cruising to Florida this winter you need to be aware of this.

Florida requires that vessels be registered in Florida after 30 days in state. However, the state provides reciprocity for of out of state vessels. This allows you to operate your vessel in state waters for up to 90 days. There is however, a little used statue, 328.58, that provides cruising in Florida waters beyond the 90 day limit without Florida registration, the Sojourner Registration.

Why is this important? If you are stopped and are asked to produce documentation about your presence in the State, you may be required to register you boat to remain. More importantly, in your registration process, you'll be asked to produce evidence that you have paid sales tax on your vessel. Many states do not tax used boats, Florida does.

For cruisers entering Florida from the north via the ICW, Nassau County is your first Florida county at Fernandina Beach. This where I am. I spoke to the County office today and got what you'll need to make this painless.

The Nassau County Tax Office is prepared to issue you the registration. The tax office is a short 5 minute walk to the county offices from the Fernandina Harbor Marina.

I spoke with Tina at the tax collectors office. Her number is 904/491-7400 x 7450. Here is what she provided today.

· Out of state vessels can enter and remain in Florida waters for 90 days without doing anything
· Out of state, state - registered vessels can remain for 6 months after the 90 day grace period by using the Sojourner process
· Out of state documented vessels can remain in the state for 1 year after the 90 day grace period using the Sojourner process
· Fees are approximately $3.00/ft
· The Sojourner registration can be processed via mail if desired; contact Tina to have her calculate your exact costs for your boat. Mail the attached forms, copy of your registration or documentation and a check to her at Tax Collectors Office, 416 Center Street, Fernandina Beach, FL 32034.

You should read the simple instructions and complete and take the completed form with you. If you are already in the State, I suggest you take the instructions and forms with you to the county offices as the workers will not likely know about this provision.

Mike

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[Stu Jackson]

Mike,

Thanks for that helpful report.

Here's what I don't understand about the law, not about your explanation/description:

· Out of state, state - registered vessels can remain for 6 months after the 90 day grace period by using the Sojourner process
· Out of state documented vessels can remain in the state for 1 year after the 90 day grace period using the Sojourner process

The law is very uneven. Why do state registered boats only get six months?

Makes no sense.

 

[Charles Erwin]

Stu and Others

The applicable Florida statute:

"328.58 Reciprocity of nonresident or alien vessels.
The owner of any vessel already covered by a registration number in full force and effect which has been awarded by:
(1) Another state pursuant to a federally approved numbering system of another state;
(2) The United States Coast Guard in a state without a federally approved numbering system; or
(3) The United States Coast Guard for a federally documented vessel with a valid registration in full force and effect from another state,shall record the number with the Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles prior to operating, using, or storing the vessel on the waters of this state in excess of the 90-day reciprocity period provided for in this chapter. Such recordation shall be pursuant to the procedure required for the award of an original registration number, except that no additional or substitute registration number shall be issued if the vessel owner maintains the previously awarded registration number in full force and effect."

As to whether there is a different life of permits issued after 90 days expires - I cannot locate any statute that supports a 12 months permit life vs. 6 months permit life based upon whether a vessel title is state based or federal based.

Florida statutory fees are all good for 12 months time. See 328.72.

Someone needs to ask Tina to provide the citation to the statute/rule/county ordinance that her office is using to treat non-documented vessels different from documented vessels.


Charles Erwin

PS -- By the way this Florida scheme is not unique. Coastal states that impose sale/use taxes have similar statutes in cases of out of state owners. For example, Washington state provides up to 6 months grace - before registration. If you are in Washington waters in excess of 6 months out of any 12 month period you must pay a use tax. The rate is identical to the applicable sales tax and you must pay no matter that you are not a Washington resident.

CE

 

[Shoaldrafter]

Whistle

BTW - when in MD and especially in Annapolis or Balmr, be SURE that there is a teeny whistle, etc. attached to your PFD ... or BIG fine.[/quote]

I wondered why Maryland water resources gave out whistles at the boat show.

Thanks for the heads up.

Ed K

 

[noanker]

since half the cars in ct seem to be registered in fla by their rich snowbird owners in an effort to not pay taxes here, maybe we should retaliate

 

[CarlN]

The joys of a Federalist system

Rhode Island (which kindly does not charge sales tax or property tax on boats) REQUIRES documented boats to be registered with the state (presumably they argue that "registration" is not the same as "documentation"). From their site:

Documented Vessels

Federally documented vessels used primarily in Rhode Island must be registered with the state. The documentation number will be used as the registration number. The vessel must display the validation decals issued by the state on each side of the vessel.

They also require me to have my sanitation system inspected every three years (which consisted solely of showing the wire tie on the seacock) and afix another particularly ugly decal to the port side.

Still, no sales tax makes up for a lot.....

Carl

 

[Roger Long]

That's kind of harsh Roger.

Yes, I see some sloppy writing there. I've been doing long days (73 nm) yesterday alone and not entirely focused. I meant "ugly state attitudes". There are a lot of beautiful places and good cruising there which I have seen before Strider.

It also appears that a usually reliable source of cruising news, the site, not someone's post, was wrong about the legality of ticketing documented vessels without state registration but I don't think they were wrong about the fact that it happens inappropriately.

There is a long and ugly history in the state of petty and not so petty harassment of cruisers. Experiences vary widely and most people report no problems. I've been reading the stories for years and there seems to be a pattern. If you have a medium to large size boat less than five years old and stay in a marina every night, you are unlikely to have a problem. If you have an smaller, older boat like mine that is clearly a long, hard traveler, you need to be prepared for the kind of crap you would consider the price of cruising in a place like Mexico.

I found the marina people as friendly as could be when I was down there last year, as long as they were holding my credit card in their hands. I didn't see anyone else because they've got the whole state (at least the part I was in) locked up so tight you can't get ashore in a town without paying 20 bucks a day dinghy tie up fee.

The attitudes are not the derelict boat problem. Most of those are, or were, owned by locals. If the state and local governments can't figure that out, and react against transient cruisers because of it, it just supports my view of the political culture there.

Back during the anchoring wars, a state official was caught admitting that the unspoken policy of the state was to influence the demographics of visiting vessels by discouraging anyone not spending two to four grand a month in marinas.

Well, at least I got the reply count on this thread way up there

 

[Kettlewell]

Florida rule interpretation

I also posted this over on Cruisers' Net. Here's my interpretation. Most Florida law enforcement has always interpreted the law as requiring your boat to have a "registration" in some state, whether or not it is "documented." The confusion comes because the terms "registration" and "documentation" mean different things. In 328.58 the sentence labeled (2) refers to the practice in the past that the Coast Guard provided state registration numbers and services in a couple of states that had no state registration program. I am not certain if any states still do not have a "registration" program, but it used to be this way in New Hampshire and Alaska, for example. The sentence labeled (3) is the one that pertains to most documented boats, and states clearly that even if you have CG documentation you must have a state registration to operate in Florida. The Venice "water Nazi" used to be quite explicit about this when he ticketed someone.

 

[redhead78]

I had a similar conundrum 2 yrs back, with vague regulations,the PO I got my boat from bought it for 50k 15 yrs ago, and had it documented and never paid sales tax..This is the common denominator here MONEY,When I bought it I documented. Now before 911 everyone was basically unchallenged here in the nj ny areas, side from the occasional coastie check. The coasties never asked for anything more than documentation, no problem..I am in keyport nj, summers, and upstate in peekskill ny for winters. From up in peekskill to keyport there are probably at least 30 different locals , that have been increasingly aggressive in stops. When they stop you they want registration, which proves you paid sales tax, they don't give a crap about documentation. I have friends in the haverstraw area that have been stopped 3 different times on a Sunday cruise. I got my boat 1977 there was no title, so reg was out of the ?....I have been dumping labor and $$ into this boat and it has already increased in value in the 4 years I have owned by myself. I was afraid when all done some yahoo state stops me and wants tax out of me and they assess the current value and bam $$$$. I ended up getting a reg from ny for 3 yrs $169.00 and they assigned and installed a vin # also.I used the value of the boat as I got it which was almost derilict...This process took over a year what a hassle with all the regs like you said at ny or nj MV they were like oh a boat I will check I don,t know....They gave me a reg sticker, no numbers to put up on the port and star bow. There is no title but I niw have documents from the stae with matching vin ##,s to prove it. So it has not happened yet but if the coasties stop me I"ll give em documentation, anyone else the registration.....When I started trying to register it was in nj, they have a 15 step process to get a reg, the first being sending a title lien search document to the 5 surrounding states from nj, whhaaatt.. That was just step 1, thank God for ny... sorry so wordy I feel same we are being way over regulated by agencies that don,t communicate or work together... Red

 

[sea_casper]

since half the cars in ct seem to be registered in fla by their rich snowbird owners in an effort to not pay taxes here, maybe we should retaliate

To be fair, not all snowbirds are "rich", neither all those who live in Noank, and the only taxes saved is the personal property tax imposed by CT on automobiles, both states charge about the same sales tax on its purchase.

Neither state imposes a property tax on boats or aircraft which as we all know are only owned by "rich" folks.

 

[justsomeguy]

snip- If you have an smaller, older boat like mine that is clearly a long, hard traveler, you need to be prepared for the kind of crap you would consider the price of cruising in a place like Mexico. -snip

Have you been hassled like this in MX?
I'm thinking "no" would be your answer.