high water?
- Thread starter jon hansen
- Start date
my info may be wrong. fine. that said. http://lre-wm.usace.army.mil/ForecastData/weekly.pdf
today we are 11" above last year on this date on lake michigan.
today check your radar. today, huge low dumping over the michigan basin, again. if the patterns continue big trouble.
i do not want to be right. wishing and hoping to be wrong, but here we go
today we are 11" above last year on this date on lake michigan.
today check your radar. today, huge low dumping over the michigan basin, again. if the patterns continue big trouble.
i do not want to be right. wishing and hoping to be wrong, but here we go
Jonmy info may be wrong. fine. that said. http://lre-wm.usace.army.mil/ForecastData/weekly.pdf
today we are 11" above last year on this date on lake michigan.
today check your radar. today, huge low dumping over the michigan basin, again. if the patterns continue big trouble.
i do not want to be right. wishing and hoping to be wrong, but here we go
Great link, the summary on that page is very informative. Thanks
Doesn’t really matter what the numbers are; the reality is the water levels are crazy high and Mom Nature seems to be annoyed with us humans!
Take care and stay safe.
A little of both. Lake level 1/2 foot below parking lot. Sustained NE wind pushes water 2-3 feet higher. Down today. Lake is still high. Normally level is 36-40” above chart datum. Currently 71” without seiche
I wonder if the NE seiche actually lowered the outflow rate from Lake Erie to Lake Ontario?
same low still sitting over michigan today. oh no. still slamming the water shed. it's huge. this is the proplem. the weather patterns just keep coming. prolly raise lake mich a number of inches from just this storm. this pattern could go on for years and years.
this is not good
this is not good
Stumbled upon this "hopeful" news (for those along the Lake Ontario shoreline ) while sipping this morning's coffee...
www.newyorkupstate.com
Time will tell....
Lake Ontario water level high, but likely will be lower than 2019 this spring, summer
International Joint Commission officials are being somewhat optimistic going into the warmer months of the year.
Time will tell....
@jon hansen
I would appreciate you sharing your knowledge about something that is puzzling me.
The topic is safely maneuvering a large vessel in a strong current.
Last summer the outflow at the dam on the St Lawrence River was set at its max during navigation season of 10,400 cubicmeters/second. This limit was said to be the most they could release for safe navigation.
I assume the rate of outflow has a direct impact on how a Lake freighter would handle.
Here’s where I am short of knowledge. I have some assumptions but don’t have any direct experience or knowledge to draw on
I assume the freighter would be OK when it was moving against the current, just add sufficient throttle to maintain headway and steerage.
I assume that going with the current would be dicey as the ship would move at least as fast as the current unless you put it into reverse. I can’t imagine that these types of ships handle all that well in reverse other than docking etc
I would appreciate you sharing your knowledge about something that is puzzling me.
The topic is safely maneuvering a large vessel in a strong current.
Last summer the outflow at the dam on the St Lawrence River was set at its max during navigation season of 10,400 cubicmeters/second. This limit was said to be the most they could release for safe navigation.
I assume the rate of outflow has a direct impact on how a Lake freighter would handle.
Here’s where I am short of knowledge. I have some assumptions but don’t have any direct experience or knowledge to draw on
I assume the freighter would be OK when it was moving against the current, just add sufficient throttle to maintain headway and steerage.
I assume that going with the current would be dicey as the ship would move at least as fast as the current unless you put it into reverse. I can’t imagine that these types of ships handle all that well in reverse other than docking etc
I haven't piloted a large freighter in a big current but I do regularly helm my 30' sailboat in Deception pass. I will go with the current in anything up to 7.0 knots. above that the water gets too turbulent and the whirlpools too big for comfort. I go at just a little below my normal cruising RPM's so that I have some reserve if I need it for maneuvering. Speed through the water is 4.5 - 5 knot. Speed over bottom is up to 13 knots. I do not go against the current because it is just too slow.
I watched the 112' Tall Ship Lady Washington (Interceptor in Pirates of the Caribbean) attempt to go through the Pass one day when the seiche caused slack to be 30 minutes early. She almost made it but at only 30 minutes after actual slack, she could not make enough headway to clear the pass. Given that the pass is narrower than her overall length length, there is no "turning" back. She simply reduced throttle and "backed" sedately through the pass will still making about 4+ knots ahead through the water.
Her is a fun video of the Hawaiian Chieftain going through with the current. At about the 0.55 you can hear a crew call out "14 knots".
I watched the 112' Tall Ship Lady Washington (Interceptor in Pirates of the Caribbean) attempt to go through the Pass one day when the seiche caused slack to be 30 minutes early. She almost made it but at only 30 minutes after actual slack, she could not make enough headway to clear the pass. Given that the pass is narrower than her overall length length, there is no "turning" back. She simply reduced throttle and "backed" sedately through the pass will still making about 4+ knots ahead through the water.
Her is a fun video of the Hawaiian Chieftain going through with the current. At about the 0.55 you can hear a crew call out "14 knots".
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Several years ago myself and two friends took an ASA sailing class out of Bellingham. A few years later we were asked by the instructor to crew with him on a trip out of Bellingham to the end of Vancouver Island in the waterway between Western Canada and Vancouver Island. The tidal bores and tidal currents through some of the narrower passages were impressive. The power of that water in a 35' sloop was awesome. We timed our passages through the narrower ones at slack. Anything else was somewhat perilous. It was a great adventure.
It rained here all day yesterday and blew hard! we had 1-2 foot rollers N to S in the marina. The bottoms of the docks are already in the water and wave action was already breaking some of them loose from the pilings. Wind is supposed to build again this afternoon. waves might be over the sidewalk around the basin along with more rain! A couple of years ago the water level was 5 feet below the sidewalk.
doug, a couple of years from now the water could be five feet higher that it is today. i sure hope not.
@Hayden Watson @Mike4116
Your stories make me recall several interesting salmon fishing trips I had while living in BC. Thanks for sharing them!
A friend and I hired an experienced guide for each adventure. During the days we fished we had several trips through narrow passages both going with the flow and against it. Very exhilarating and a lot of silent praying that the motor didn’t quit!!!
Your stories make me recall several interesting salmon fishing trips I had while living in BC. Thanks for sharing them!
A friend and I hired an experienced guide for each adventure. During the days we fished we had several trips through narrow passages both going with the flow and against it. Very exhilarating and a lot of silent praying that the motor didn’t quit!!!
In the Hawaiian Chieftain video watching the helmsman spin the wheel makes me glad that mine is less than 3-turns lock-to-lock!@Hayden Watson @Mike4116
Your stories make me recall several interesting salmon fishing trips I had while living in BC. Thanks for sharing them!
A friend and I hired an experienced guide for each adventure. During the days we fished we had several trips through narrow passages both going with the flow and against it. Very exhilarating and a lot of silent praying that the motor didn’t quit!!!
I've not piloted any large ships, and I'm not Jon, but as an old kayak slalom racer, there are consideration when maneuvering up and down a river in current. Eddies and current shear on river bends means half the vessel can be in one current while the other can be in another. You can use this to spin on a dime or lose control.
Here, they're calling this shear line, the seam.
-Will (Dragonfly)
So were you old when you raced or did you race old kayaks
. Sorry couldn’t resist plus I shouldn’t throw any stones in THAT glass house.I’m not sure what happened but I don’t see any picture or video in your post just a little box with a red X in it???
as a very slow typer asked to explain a very big subject on a thread that was started to give some a real heads up that the lakes might continue to jump higher next year and many more years to come.
well. some thoughts: the seaway controllers have need to consider all vessels. some well designed, some not so much. hayden's video shows the old tube of a sailing vessel that is twin screw with no thrust going past the rudder. very squirrelly.
big ships, single screw might have a propellor 20' in diameter pushing its thrust past the rudder. ships steer by controlling their thrust. no thrust, no control by the rudder, unlike our sailboats. as any vessel goes throw the water it has to divide the water, allow the water to pass the hull and then bring the water back together. well with say two feet under the hull the water can no longer go under the hull and most of it now has to go around it. the hull will start "grabbing the bottom" or so it feels. in a channel a big vessel will act like it's in a tight canal as it works the water around it. other considerations are the underwater erosion of channels and shore lines. by adding more speed through the water to maintain ground speed the forces of the hull water displacement and increased thrust by huge props mays well do allot of surface damage to a dredged channel and/or the neighboring shore line.
those are just a few thought to give a wider view of whats going on with ships.
but with that said. ships handle just the same as little vessels handle. different shapes give different rides. it's just exponentially slower.
if any of you want to experience what it's like driving a big ship, i'll tell you how. take a 30' pontoon boat with all the sofas and living room gear, surrey top too, load it up to the max , or even more, with all your friends, and put a 2hp engine on it and go out on a windy day. then go try and make some docks. it will be a hoot
well. some thoughts: the seaway controllers have need to consider all vessels. some well designed, some not so much. hayden's video shows the old tube of a sailing vessel that is twin screw with no thrust going past the rudder. very squirrelly.
big ships, single screw might have a propellor 20' in diameter pushing its thrust past the rudder. ships steer by controlling their thrust. no thrust, no control by the rudder, unlike our sailboats. as any vessel goes throw the water it has to divide the water, allow the water to pass the hull and then bring the water back together. well with say two feet under the hull the water can no longer go under the hull and most of it now has to go around it. the hull will start "grabbing the bottom" or so it feels. in a channel a big vessel will act like it's in a tight canal as it works the water around it. other considerations are the underwater erosion of channels and shore lines. by adding more speed through the water to maintain ground speed the forces of the hull water displacement and increased thrust by huge props mays well do allot of surface damage to a dredged channel and/or the neighboring shore line.
those are just a few thought to give a wider view of whats going on with ships.
but with that said. ships handle just the same as little vessels handle. different shapes give different rides. it's just exponentially slower.
if any of you want to experience what it's like driving a big ship, i'll tell you how. take a 30' pontoon boat with all the sofas and living room gear, surrey top too, load it up to the max , or even more, with all your friends, and put a 2hp engine on it and go out on a windy day. then go try and make some docks. it will be a hoot
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on a calm day the pontoon boat will be easy to control, just really slow. on a breezy it will get squirrelly as all hell.
I guess some Web addresses are not so good for linking pictures to.
I downloaded the pic and imported from there.
-Will (Dragonfly)
-Will (Dragonfly)
I downloaded the pic and imported from there.
-Will (Dragonfly)
LOL. I was in high school and it was the latest kevlar boat that weighed about 14 lbs. Now, I'm old and the boats are too. I can't imagine having the courage to take on some of the water I use to paddle in. I bruise wayyyyy to easily now.So were you old when you raced or did you race old kayaks
-Will (Dragonfly)
Jon
Thank you for sharing your wisdom and the mental picture of the semi submerged pontoon boat trying to maneuver to a dock!
I didn’t really consider the effect a big ship passing by might have on the channel or shoreline.
I can’t imagine how challenging it would be to slow or stop something that big while running with the current. I guess that’s where experience comes in handy!
Thank you for sharing your wisdom and the mental picture of the semi submerged pontoon boat trying to maneuver to a dock!
I didn’t really consider the effect a big ship passing by might have on the channel or shoreline.
I can’t imagine how challenging it would be to slow or stop something that big while running with the current. I guess that’s where experience comes in handy!