Has anyone here added a fresh water storage tank under the starboard bench in the salon for the purposes of supplying fresh water to the on-board head? I'd be interested to know what you used for a tank. The water in the lagoon where we sail can be quite unpleasant.
Fresh Water Supply To On-Board Head - 272LE
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What’s the make/model/approx age of your toilet? Size of your holding tank? How much fresh water do you hold? How many people usually aboard? Typically how long? Depending on your answers there maybe a better solution that costs a lot less and doesn’t cost you any more storage space.
As best I can tell its a Groco, similar to their HF series. I have no reason to believe it's not original, which makes it a vintage 1987 or so. The holding tank capacity is 15 gallons. No more than four people overnight, and even then only occasionally. Typically we go out sailing for half days, sometime all day, and again typically no more than four aboard.
Your toilet is 30 years old, which is 20 years past it's average lifespan so it's really past due for replacement ...your holding tank, unless it's metal, is prob'ly ok but your hoses are prob'ly way past due for replacement and all of it is not only eating up a major chunk of your storage space, but replacing the toilet and plumbing AND adding another flush water tank is gonna take a major bite out of your wallet too. I have a better idea that will cost you less than the cost of adding the flush water tank:
Replace the toilet and holding tank with a self-contained system: an "MSD" portapotty. The "MSD" designation in the model name/number means it has fittings for a pumpout line and vent line, and is designed to be permanently installed (actually just sturdier brackets than portables, so you could still take it off the boat if you absolutely have to), which means that although it's still called a PORTApotty, you don't have to carry anything off the boat to empty it.
A 5-6 gallon model holds 50-60 flushes...you'd need at least a 30 gallon tank to hold that many from any marine toilet. No plumbing needed except a vent line and pumpout hose--so no new holes in the boat...and -0- maintenance needed except for rinsing out the tank--which you can do with a bucket while it's being pumped out. Total cost including the pumpout hose, vent line and a deck pumpout fitting is about $200--a fraction of what you'd spend for toilet, tank and all the related plumbing needed. And the best part is, you have all the advantages of a toilet and holding tank without giving up a single square foot of storage space...and NO sea water odors!!
Check out the Thetford 550P MSD and the Dometic/SeaLand 975MSD Sanipottie
Replace the toilet and holding tank with a self-contained system: an "MSD" portapotty. The "MSD" designation in the model name/number means it has fittings for a pumpout line and vent line, and is designed to be permanently installed (actually just sturdier brackets than portables, so you could still take it off the boat if you absolutely have to), which means that although it's still called a PORTApotty, you don't have to carry anything off the boat to empty it.
A 5-6 gallon model holds 50-60 flushes...you'd need at least a 30 gallon tank to hold that many from any marine toilet. No plumbing needed except a vent line and pumpout hose--so no new holes in the boat...and -0- maintenance needed except for rinsing out the tank--which you can do with a bucket while it's being pumped out. Total cost including the pumpout hose, vent line and a deck pumpout fitting is about $200--a fraction of what you'd spend for toilet, tank and all the related plumbing needed. And the best part is, you have all the advantages of a toilet and holding tank without giving up a single square foot of storage space...and NO sea water odors!!
Check out the Thetford 550P MSD and the Dometic/SeaLand 975MSD Sanipottie
Forgot to include: No separate tank or plumbing for flush water needed...it has a reservoir that you'd fill using a milk jug or pitcher. It uses so little that a single fill is enough for a full tank.
@Peggy hall headmistress, I am not going to argue MSD Portapotty vs holding tank/toilet, but come on...how many 30-year old boats (mine included) whose marine toilets are still going strong?
You like MSD Portapotty for their simplicity. I don’t want to carry urine off the boat every time the boat is used, and I don’t like the idea of the “compost” sitting on my boat, in the heat, boat closed up...
My only point is that there are plenty of Marine toilets, 30 years old, that are fully functional, that can rebuilt if necessary, and still provide years of service.
Respectfully,
Greg
It all depends on your definition of "going strong." It may still be flushing, but nowhere near as efficiently as it did when it was new, even if it's been meticulously maintained (always kept lubricated, rebuild kit every few years, new joker valve annually) because the inside of the pump cylinder becomes worn--more worn when lubrication is neglected--and not necessarily evenly because humans are doing the pumping... So seals and o-rings no longer are as tight a "fit" against the cylinder wall...so very gradually it needs to be pumped one more time....then one more time. You don't notice it because it happens so gradually--just as we don't see the little bit older we grow every day in the mirror. We may think we're still going as strong as we did 20 years ago, but we're not and neither is any marine toilet.
Few boat owners even notice the decrease in efficiency when joker valves aren't changed for years...I'm always seeing posts from people who say they haven't replaced it in 6-8 years and claim the toilet is still "going strong." That's because most people don't even the joker valve's real function, they think it's only supposed to block back flow...find the article "joker valve 101" to learn why it's actually the most important "degradable" part in a manual toilet.
Toilet mfrs will tell you that the average lifespan of a compact manual toilet is 7-9 years...a couple more if meticulously maintained, especially lubrication. So your toilet may still be "going strong," but whether you realize it or not, you have to pump it a lot more times than you (or the original owner) did when it was new.
The original 272 LE head was a Groco HF....I changed mine out to a Raritan and it's been much easier to pump; not that
pumping is the issue...how about the Raritan is easier for guests to pump....sometimes I'm a guest on my boat...pat
pumping is the issue...how about the Raritan is easier for guests to pump....sometimes I'm a guest on my boat...pat
I will agree with that, but it certainly is not ready to be scrapped in favor of a new one. I guess I am just an old fashioned (and frugal) guy who likes to maintain my equipment and expect it to last with some TLC.
Now if it was a Jabsco, that may be a different story
, but my Raritan is still “going strong”. Cheers,
Greg
Now if it was a Jabsco, that may be a different story
If it were any compact manual toilet, it would be a different story. But your Raritan PHII--something you conveniently neglected to mention--isn't a compact manual toilet. It's a full size manual toilet pump that just happens to also fit a compact base...and it's unique--not only the top rated manual toilet in its class (topped only by $1000 bronze "thrones) since it was introduced in 1982, but designed and built to provide at least 20 years of reliable trouble-free service if it's just kept well lubricated, gets a new joker valve every year, and rebuilt every 5-6 years. It also outperforms every manual toilet in its class because it has a piston with a 2.5" diameter instead of the 1 3/4" piston that most other manual toilets have. That may not sound like much of a difference, but it is. Here's how Vic Willman, who was with Raritan for 40+ years, first as plant manager and later tech service manager explained it:Now if it was a Jabsco, that may be a different story
"When you calculate the cubic inch capacity (displacement) of the PHII with a 2 1/2" diameter piston, it comes out to a little over 12 cubic inches. If you do the same calculation for a pump with a 1 3/4" diameter piston, with the same 2 1/2" stroke, the cubic inch capacity is only 6 cubic inches. To put that all into English, the PHII will pump twice as much per stroke, as it's competitors will. Adding the lever-type handle, there isn't as much actual effort required. So, in a nutshell, you only have to pump half as many times to flush it, and your arm doesn't get as tired. Plus, with the lever handle, you don't have to bend over as far, with your nose practically in the bowl, while you're pumping it."
However, unless you've kept yours well lubricated, replaced the joker valve annually and rebuilt it every 5-6 years (cost about $60), it may still outperform any compact manual, but it's no longer working anywhere near as well as it would if you had. So even with a PHII, "still going strong" is a relative term.
Nice try, though...
Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein
Ok. I surrender. But I am NOT buying a new toilet !If it were any compact manual toilet, it would be a different story. But your Raritan PHII--something you conveniently neglected to mention--isn't a compact manual toilet. It's a full size manual toilet pump that just happens to also fit a compact base...and it's unique--not only the top rated manual toilet in its class (topped only by $1000 bronze "thrones) since it was introduced in 1982, but designed and built to provide at least 20 years of reliable trouble-free service if it's just kept well lubricated, gets a new joker valve every year, and rebuilt every 5-6 years. It also outperforms every manual toilet in its class because it has a piston with a 2.5" diameter instead of the 1 3/4" piston that most other manual toilets have. That may not sound like much of a difference, but it is. Here's how Vic Willman, who was with Raritan for 40+ years, first as plant manager and later tech service manager explained it:
"When you calculate the cubic inch capacity (displacement) of the PHII with a 2 1/2" diameter piston, it comes out to a little over 12 cubic inches. If you do the same calculation for a pump with a 1 3/4" diameter piston, with the same 2 1/2" stroke, the cubic inch capacity is only 6 cubic inches. To put that all into English, the PHII will pump twice as much per stroke, as it's competitors will. Adding the lever-type handle, there isn't as much actual effort required. So, in a nutshell, you only have to pump half as many times to flush it, and your arm doesn't get as tired. Plus, with the lever handle, you don't have to bend over as far, with your nose practically in the bowl, while you're pumping it."
However, unless you've kept yours well lubricated, replaced the joker valve annually and rebuilt it every 5-6 years (cost about $60), it may still outperform any compact manual, but it's no longer working anywhere near as well as it would if you had. So even with a PHII, "still going strong" is a relative term.
Nice try, though...
Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein
Greg
Never suggested that you should. But if want it to last another 10 years, you might want consider doing what I strongly suspect is some long overdue maintenance.
My Oday 34 was re plumbed prior to my purchase. This is what they did, Converted the original 15 gallon holding tank (located under V birth) into a fresh/Flush water tank, added a 5 gallon holding under the V Birth, moved the hoses to accommodate, and left the thru hull with hose in place but not attached to the toilet (only there for use if flush water is out). Now the down side is I have only a five gallon holding tank. I am in the planning process of maybe changing things back to the original because there is no space for a larger holding tank.
Sounds like a plan to me. You could even remove the 5 gallon tank and reroute the toilet intake line to tee into the head sink drain line. That would provide a safe source of fresh water to rinse the sea water out of the ENTIRE system before the boat will sit. You'll find a number of posts that provide detailed information about the advantages to doing this in the archives of sanitation and plumbing forum...and it's included in my book (see link my signature).
Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein
Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein
Always flushing with water poured into the bowl isn't good for the toilet pump because bowl contents only go through the bottom of the pump. The drastically reduced amount of water flowing through the whole pump increases the wear on the seals and o-rings in the rest of pump unless you're scrupulous about always keeping it VERY well lubricated. Besides, why haul water bottles back and forth to the boat when the sea water issues can be eliminated with a tee fitting? Several high end boat builders--Tartan was one--used to plumb the toilet intake line and head sink drain line to the same thru-hull because it eliminates one hole in the boat. It's a very easy and inexpensive retrofit that a lot of owners have done and love. So YOU might consider giving it a thought!
As usual, great advice Peggy. But, I did OK with my water bottles for 8 years. No big deal having a few on board. I rebuild the head every other year, and lubed the pump once a month or so with no problems. Have now moved on to a 322 and don't use the bottles anymore.... Just saying, if you want to go fresh water, bringing your own on board a bottle at a time is a good option, while you spend your money and time on other boat items!