First time sailor, seeking advice
- Thread starter grtlakes
- Start date
Either choice would be good if the condition is comparable. I had a Oday 22 and trailered it for the first season I owned it. I now have an Oday 240. If cabin room is important to you than you may want to take a peek at an Oday 240. They have an open cabin plan with 5"8 headroom. It has a wing keel that draws 2"10 inches. I recently googled the model and saw a few for sale in Michigan. I believe they were on a trailer.
I'm sure you will enjoy whatever you decide on.
I'm sure you will enjoy whatever you decide on.
When you go up to a very large trailer sailor then you are at a thresh hold. Any bigger and you can't trailer at all but at the same time the larger ones are a pain to trailer, step the mast, etc. If you want to day sail stick to a smaller boat. If you don't mind putting it in the slip or you can find a place with mast up storage on the trailer then you can go to the Catalina 25 or so. I find that my Compac 23 is much better to slip for half of the year and put her on the trailer for the winter.
Swing keels, centerboards, etc. have extra maintenance that you have to think about. They have to be inspected well so you know what you are dealing with. Sailing along and having a cable break, or, much worse, having the centerboard pin break is very bad.
My current boat draws about 2.5. It is a shoal draft, no centerboard. I point okay for what it is but it is the compromise for a shallow draft boat that you can trailer but still not worry about dealing with a board.
Boats are all about compromise. You will end sacrificing on one thing to gain in another.
Swing keels, centerboards, etc. have extra maintenance that you have to think about. They have to be inspected well so you know what you are dealing with. Sailing along and having a cable break, or, much worse, having the centerboard pin break is very bad.
My current boat draws about 2.5. It is a shoal draft, no centerboard. I point okay for what it is but it is the compromise for a shallow draft boat that you can trailer but still not worry about dealing with a board.
Boats are all about compromise. You will end sacrificing on one thing to gain in another.
It's not just about the boat when you consider the compromises. There have been lots of discussions here about weight ratings and percentages and such. Larger boat need larger vehicles, and that matters even more so depending on the environment the boat will be towed through. Even something as light as a Mac26 needs a decent sized pickup to pull it through the Rockies.
The diesel in the 350 seems to admire the workout it gets pulling the Catalina.
The diesel in the 350 seems to admire the workout it gets pulling the Catalina.
Here's a different line of thought.
I don't understand (OK I sorta do) the thought process behind a total newbie running out and buying a 25 foot boat. You don't know what you don't know. There is SO much to learn, and yes you can learn by doing, but what you find is that the learning on your own is very slow, and that half the big decisions you made were wrong.
People helping you? Here's one most people overlook. NOBODY likes to sail with a newbie skipper. Sorry but it's painful. The same awesome sailor who will have you as crew anytime on HIS boat where you'll learn like crazy might sail with you once on yours once. Its really no fun for the other guy.
SO... How about spending the first season sailing with others? Find a club (or clubs!) where you can sail sail sail. Race, cruise, whatever. You'll learn first hand from multiple people. See and sail different boats. And the overhead is MUCH less. Launching a 25 footer (even stick-up and stored at the marina) is a big time investment. It requires a big block of time. Daysailing with a group or even better racing as crew mostly allows you to show up and go. You go much more often. You sail more. You learn more.
I PROMISE this would be a year well spent.
I don't understand (OK I sorta do) the thought process behind a total newbie running out and buying a 25 foot boat. You don't know what you don't know. There is SO much to learn, and yes you can learn by doing, but what you find is that the learning on your own is very slow, and that half the big decisions you made were wrong.
People helping you? Here's one most people overlook. NOBODY likes to sail with a newbie skipper. Sorry but it's painful. The same awesome sailor who will have you as crew anytime on HIS boat where you'll learn like crazy might sail with you once on yours once. Its really no fun for the other guy.
SO... How about spending the first season sailing with others? Find a club (or clubs!) where you can sail sail sail. Race, cruise, whatever. You'll learn first hand from multiple people. See and sail different boats. And the overhead is MUCH less. Launching a 25 footer (even stick-up and stored at the marina) is a big time investment. It requires a big block of time. Daysailing with a group or even better racing as crew mostly allows you to show up and go. You go much more often. You sail more. You learn more.
I PROMISE this would be a year well spent.
You will not sail your boat much as time goes on if you have to unload and load back on the trailer everytime. Look at all the derelict boats sitting on trailers. Again, Jackdaw is spot on. Crew on others' boats. Sail some small tiller rigged boats. Get familiar with what you really want. Take your time then when you are ready, buy the biggest boat you can afford. You will grow into it rapidly. Good luck.
GR;
As a retired sailboat dealer, Jackdaw is correct and his advice is very sound. Many customers who purchased either a new or used sailboat without experience spent too much time and/or got disinterested in sailing particularly purchasing a trailerable sailboat. From my own personal experience when I started out in a trailerable, I bought a new boat that had not been rigged with trailer learning the hard way and became very frustrated. If it had not been for a couple of friends who took the time to show me the ropes that had sailboats, I suggest following Jackdaw's advice. I learned many lessons and when I became a dealer, I had a policy of teaching everyone how to sail, trailer, etc. which in time built up a loyal base of customers who recommended my dealership over others. I taught other dealers many ways how to treat customers and in time they too built up there customer base. For many years, my customers came back and taught me tricks and wanted to be involved in the shows. It was a great and wonderful time as in time many of us became long lasting friends which I will always cherish .
As a retired sailboat dealer, Jackdaw is correct and his advice is very sound. Many customers who purchased either a new or used sailboat without experience spent too much time and/or got disinterested in sailing particularly purchasing a trailerable sailboat. From my own personal experience when I started out in a trailerable, I bought a new boat that had not been rigged with trailer learning the hard way and became very frustrated. If it had not been for a couple of friends who took the time to show me the ropes that had sailboats, I suggest following Jackdaw's advice. I learned many lessons and when I became a dealer, I had a policy of teaching everyone how to sail, trailer, etc. which in time built up a loyal base of customers who recommended my dealership over others. I taught other dealers many ways how to treat customers and in time they too built up there customer base. For many years, my customers came back and taught me tricks and wanted to be involved in the shows. It was a great and wonderful time as in time many of us became long lasting friends which I will always cherish .
I agree and disagree with Jackdaw and Crazy Dave. I agree with them that buying a large trailer-able boat is not the wisest move if the intent is to step and strike the mast for every outing. If that's the plan, buy a small, lightweight boat that is fast and easy to rig.
On the other hand, if you can afford to store the boat with the mast up, be it on the water or on a trailer, you'll be way ahead in the sailing game by owning your own boat than by counting on others to take you out on their boats (and of course, way behind in the $ accumulation game). With your own boat: you will sail more often, you can sail anytime you want to sail, do what you want to do, go where you want to go, practice the skills that you want to practice. And...nothing is preventing you from going out on other people's boats if the opportunity arises. My experience in sailing on other people's boats is that it takes work and patience to get invited, and once I'm there, I don't learn that much. In fact, I learn almost nothing compared to sailing my own boat, because other sailors are not necessarily that good. Two things I like about sailing on other people's boats are the social interaction and I get a feel for other boat designs.
On the other hand, if you can afford to store the boat with the mast up, be it on the water or on a trailer, you'll be way ahead in the sailing game by owning your own boat than by counting on others to take you out on their boats (and of course, way behind in the $ accumulation game). With your own boat: you will sail more often, you can sail anytime you want to sail, do what you want to do, go where you want to go, practice the skills that you want to practice. And...nothing is preventing you from going out on other people's boats if the opportunity arises. My experience in sailing on other people's boats is that it takes work and patience to get invited, and once I'm there, I don't learn that much. In fact, I learn almost nothing compared to sailing my own boat, because other sailors are not necessarily that good. Two things I like about sailing on other people's boats are the social interaction and I get a feel for other boat designs.
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JW;
If the fellow who posted this in the beginning had experience sailing, the responses from Jackdaw and myself would be different but he has none and to just go out and buy a boat without instruction or experience in sailing should learn some basics first and then decide which way to go. I have seen many buy a boat without that experience get hurt, buy the wrong boat, found out that sailing is not for them calling it too much work and the list goes on as they had no experience or instruction. I saw too much in my lifetime as a dealer which does set me apart in how I respond because I was in that boat once myself which is why I took that experience and turned it around which made myself successful. I speak from experience.
If the fellow who posted this in the beginning had experience sailing, the responses from Jackdaw and myself would be different but he has none and to just go out and buy a boat without instruction or experience in sailing should learn some basics first and then decide which way to go. I have seen many buy a boat without that experience get hurt, buy the wrong boat, found out that sailing is not for them calling it too much work and the list goes on as they had no experience or instruction. I saw too much in my lifetime as a dealer which does set me apart in how I respond because I was in that boat once myself which is why I took that experience and turned it around which made myself successful. I speak from experience.
Crazy Dave has a good point.
Why not crew on some racing sailboats for a while. A lot of racers are always looking for "rail meat" and you learn as you go along. You learn about sailing, trimming, and other aspects of boat handling. You also learn the rules of the road and boat care. All of this information for FREE!!
If you want to just go out and learn to sail buy a Sunfish. They are basic, cheap, and easy to learn on. They are also forgiving.
Why not crew on some racing sailboats for a while. A lot of racers are always looking for "rail meat" and you learn as you go along. You learn about sailing, trimming, and other aspects of boat handling. You also learn the rules of the road and boat care. All of this information for FREE!!
If you want to just go out and learn to sail buy a Sunfish. They are basic, cheap, and easy to learn on. They are also forgiving.
I did exactly what the original poster did... sailed once on Lake Michigan and bought a boat.
I will admit that we are learning as we go at it on our own but, we learn so much more when we sail with seasoned friends - on their boats. I have learned more sailing on their boats that I can take back to mine than I have learned on my own by myself. I would definitely enroll in a class if I had one available where we are but, for now I learn by reading and doing.
As far as the boat goes, he mentioned a C25. I only have experience on Catalina 25's, 27's and a Comar Comet 13 because that's all I sail on - I own an '86 SK C25. I load and unload to and from the trailer once a year and keep it slipped. Personally, I would not want to haul out after every time I sailed or I'm sure I'd give up sailing. I just detest dealing with wind, waves and crowds when trying to haul out. Get in a rush and you'll damage your boat by making stupid, rushed mistakes... just my input.
As far as choosing a boat, all I can suggest is look at many boats before you set out to buy. I think the smallest differences in the different models can make a big difference later. Once you've narrowed it down to what you like, educate yourself on the makes and models you are interested in "before" you get serious about inspecting them for purchase. Know the problem areas and do your best to keep emotions out of your buying experience. We learned as we shopped for a year before traveling 7 hours to bring ours home.
Remember, there are always boats for sale and there will always be boats for sale. Don't get in a rush. What you think you may want now may not necessarily be what you want after you've sailed a few times. Take your time and take an educated neutral party with you to keep your head on straight. The more you shop, the more you learn.
Good luck!
I will admit that we are learning as we go at it on our own but, we learn so much more when we sail with seasoned friends - on their boats. I have learned more sailing on their boats that I can take back to mine than I have learned on my own by myself. I would definitely enroll in a class if I had one available where we are but, for now I learn by reading and doing.
As far as the boat goes, he mentioned a C25. I only have experience on Catalina 25's, 27's and a Comar Comet 13 because that's all I sail on - I own an '86 SK C25. I load and unload to and from the trailer once a year and keep it slipped. Personally, I would not want to haul out after every time I sailed or I'm sure I'd give up sailing. I just detest dealing with wind, waves and crowds when trying to haul out. Get in a rush and you'll damage your boat by making stupid, rushed mistakes... just my input.
As far as choosing a boat, all I can suggest is look at many boats before you set out to buy. I think the smallest differences in the different models can make a big difference later. Once you've narrowed it down to what you like, educate yourself on the makes and models you are interested in "before" you get serious about inspecting them for purchase. Know the problem areas and do your best to keep emotions out of your buying experience. We learned as we shopped for a year before traveling 7 hours to bring ours home.
Remember, there are always boats for sale and there will always be boats for sale. Don't get in a rush. What you think you may want now may not necessarily be what you want after you've sailed a few times. Take your time and take an educated neutral party with you to keep your head on straight. The more you shop, the more you learn.
Good luck!
Per buying your own boat, vs getting a ride, there may be other factors. In my case, the lake were I sail rarely has any other sailboats on it, on the Sunday afternoons when I sail. That means if you were in my situation, you would be hard pressed to get a ride. So ask around first. Second depends mostly on you. I have a coworker who wanted to buy a boat and learn to sail. He had only been sailing on one other boat and that was some time ago. I told him he really needed to go for a ride first, and get over the biggest humps with help. With him, one ride got him most of the way there. But that was because he was an aeronautics engineer, so he knew more about foils than probably anyone on this forum. But for the most part, he had good mechanical aptitude, so everything he could see made sense. Some just easily pick up on things.
The second question seem to be about launching. That has me scratching my head. Unless you are launching into current, a strong wind, I don't know what would be difficult about it. If you launch by yourself, you may want to bolt on goal posts on your trailer, so the boat doesn't wander off before you have a chance to get out of your car and tie it off. Even so, I have done it, where I partially launched it. Tied the back of the boat off loose, and then put it in the rest of the way to get it off the trailer. the rear line prevented to rear of the boat from wondering off. One other trick I do is have an extra dock line just for launching. One end is tied off in the middle off the boat. The other end goes through the jib jam cleat. This way I can hold the boat to the dock with a short adjustable loop. When I get ready to depart, its just a matter of pulling the line from the cleat and flipping it off the dock pole. All done from the cockpit, so I am only away from the outboard and the tiller for about 3 seconds. Bring it into the dock the same way. I've never understood why all boats don't have extra mid-ship dock cleats.
The second question seem to be about launching. That has me scratching my head. Unless you are launching into current, a strong wind, I don't know what would be difficult about it. If you launch by yourself, you may want to bolt on goal posts on your trailer, so the boat doesn't wander off before you have a chance to get out of your car and tie it off. Even so, I have done it, where I partially launched it. Tied the back of the boat off loose, and then put it in the rest of the way to get it off the trailer. the rear line prevented to rear of the boat from wondering off. One other trick I do is have an extra dock line just for launching. One end is tied off in the middle off the boat. The other end goes through the jib jam cleat. This way I can hold the boat to the dock with a short adjustable loop. When I get ready to depart, its just a matter of pulling the line from the cleat and flipping it off the dock pole. All done from the cockpit, so I am only away from the outboard and the tiller for about 3 seconds. Bring it into the dock the same way. I've never understood why all boats don't have extra mid-ship dock cleats.
Perhaps we are talking to ourselves (OP?), but ... I (again) agree with Jackdaw and Crazy Dave -- buying a boat is Step 27 of a sailing life. Having a brand discussion is like talking to a 14-year-old about what type of sports car he wants. Get some experience in sailing on other people's boats, and learning what you like (going fast, sipping cocktails at anchor, etc.). Where are you in Michigan, OP, and we'll set you up with some club that sponsors races if a Google search doesn't have it already?
meriachee;
Looking at the photo of your Catalina on that three axle trailer is not secured and could result in damage and possibly an accident. This will be a wake up for all with that type of arrangement. Let me explain.
Most trailerable boat bows are secured at the tongue of the trailer via winch line and hopefully a safety chain. The keeps the boat from sliding forward or backwards. you have to strap the boat down so it will not slide. First always have a board or piece of rubber for the keel tray so when the bottom of the keel is on it, it will help a lot to keep it from sliding. If the keel is directly on a metal keel tray with the keel touching metal only, that can cause the boat to move. So he first thing is to put either wood or rubber on top of the metal where the keel will rest on the keel tray.
The next item is to purchase two extra long tie down straps. The first should be over the forward section of the bow cleats led aft secured to the trailer to prevent the boat from sliding forward. The second should be draped on the aft of the rear cleats going forward to keep the boat from sliding backwards.
Once I sent an employee who did not last long to go and get a Catalina 310 in Florida and told him how to strap down the boat to my trailer. Well he left that up to the manufacturer and during the trip, that boat slid forward two feet damaging my trailer because he was going fast and tailgating. I also replaced the transmission too as well as him.
Looking at the photo of your Catalina on that three axle trailer is not secured and could result in damage and possibly an accident. This will be a wake up for all with that type of arrangement. Let me explain.
Most trailerable boat bows are secured at the tongue of the trailer via winch line and hopefully a safety chain. The keeps the boat from sliding forward or backwards. you have to strap the boat down so it will not slide. First always have a board or piece of rubber for the keel tray so when the bottom of the keel is on it, it will help a lot to keep it from sliding. If the keel is directly on a metal keel tray with the keel touching metal only, that can cause the boat to move. So he first thing is to put either wood or rubber on top of the metal where the keel will rest on the keel tray.
The next item is to purchase two extra long tie down straps. The first should be over the forward section of the bow cleats led aft secured to the trailer to prevent the boat from sliding forward. The second should be draped on the aft of the rear cleats going forward to keep the boat from sliding backwards.
Once I sent an employee who did not last long to go and get a Catalina 310 in Florida and told him how to strap down the boat to my trailer. Well he left that up to the manufacturer and during the trip, that boat slid forward two feet damaging my trailer because he was going fast and tailgating. I also replaced the transmission too as well as him.
I think I'd be comfortable with how he has it strapped down. Looks to be a stop in front of the keel that would prevent forward motion and forward and rearward motion would be limited do to the bunks that rise up towards the stern and bow. With the boat held down it couldn't slide forward or rearward as the rising bunks keep it centered fore/aft. The straps would have to break or stretch for the boat to move up the bunks in either direction.
I would probably feel better with a boat that size to have additional straps if I was going some distance and they could be angled as you mentioned,
Sumner
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1300 miles to The Bahamas and Back in the Mac...
Endeavour 37 Mods...
MacGregor 26-S Mods...
Mac Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida, Bahamas
I have always considered straps a must have. We experienced a fishtail situation 2 years ago after our purchase (because I didn't check the tongue weight) and I believe to this day that if it wasn't strapped down we would have lost everything, including our truck.
Sumner;
I pulled sailboats for a living as a sailboat dealer and was often asked to conduct seminars for truckers and was often asked how to tie down a boat to a trailer. I have too much experience in this field and stand on what I said as an expert.
I pulled sailboats for a living as a sailboat dealer and was often asked to conduct seminars for truckers and was often asked how to tie down a boat to a trailer. I have too much experience in this field and stand on what I said as an expert.