First time sailor, seeking advice

Stu Jackson · Nov 16, 2015

Good thinking about putter her in a slip, you'll sail a lot more.

Here are THE guys to ask:

http://catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=3

Good luck.

Apex · Nov 16, 2015

I had a catalina 25 fin keel, a very nice sailing boat. Have an O'day now, but in the 25ft range, I would opt again for the Catalina. Sails quite a bit better than the same size O'Day IMHO...

For a swing keel, check the keel trunk carefully. Lastly Stu's link to the association is the place to learn about Catalina 25's bar none

Stu Jackson · Nov 16, 2015

grtlakes said:
I can keep at marina on trailer with mast up!

I did that with a C22. This is certainly a BIG question you should ask the C25 guys on their forum. I have been following that forum since I used to have a C25. They will know. Good luck.

cb32863 · Nov 16, 2015

Apex said:
I had a catalina 25 fin keel, a very nice sailing boat. Have an O'day now, but in the 25ft range, I would opt again for the Catalina. Sails quite a bit better than the same size O'Day IMHO...

For a swing keel, check the keel trunk carefully. Lastly Stu's link to the association is the place to learn about Catalina 25's bar none

Yeah, I have owned an O'Day 25 with the centerboard and, its a hard reality, but, it does not sail very well. Other issues include leaky chain plate penetrations in the deck which will lead to rotten bulkheads and rotten deck core if not maintained diligently. Look in to the Beneteau First 235 with the wing keel. I have one, trailered it from Florida to Minnesota and sailed it all spring, summer, and fall here. Awesome pocket cruiser but, they can be on the higher end cost wise. In my opinion, well worth it.

Siamese · Nov 16, 2015

I'm your neighbor to the South, down here in Muskegon where I slip a 28 Catalina.

Either of the two boats would be a nice choice for you. Different sailing characteristics, but I'd choose the one that's in better condition or has more equipment that you like.

I live next to a marina here, and right behind my house is the launch ramp and storage for sailboats with the mast up. I noticed that a guy with about a 24' S2 was going out a lot this summer. So was the guy with the 25 McGregor. They didn't seem to struggle at the launch ramp. Either of the boats you're looking at could be day-launched. It would be very important to spend time and a little money up front to make sure that your launching and retrieval systems are well thought out and smooth. Imagine a day on the lake where you were too hot, the flies were biting, and your girlfriend's putting off some bad vibes. And then you have to go through the ordeal of getting the boat out of the water. With the right preparation, your plan sounds workable to me.

Here in Muskegon, we also have a couple of mooring fields that are reasonably priced. I used one of them for about a decade or so. I would prefer a mooring to launching. If mooring is available in your area it may be worth consideration.

Keep us posted as you get closer to making your boat purchase. My unsolicited advice is that you get the boat surveyed, despite what will be a relatively low purchase price. Seek the best surveyor in your area (there may be members of this forum with info on surveyors in your area). The list of things that can be wrong with a sailboat is LONG.

Kermit · Nov 17, 2015

One thing to think about is the condition of the ramp. I have one of the most trailer-friendly boats in the world but struggled with my former ramp. To the point that Crazy Dave Condon ended up driving down to help me figure out what was going wrong. I now use a terrific ramp and actually look forward to launching and retrieving. You might want to ask others their opinion of the ramp before committing to that marina. I know this doesn't pertain to your choices of boats but I thought it was worth mentioning. Good luck and have fun. And welcome to a life-changing addiction!

njlarry · Nov 17, 2015

Good choice of boats. Each will have its fair share of fans. Look for one in the best condition. Ramp slope, length, surface, currrents etc are important but you will quickly get the hang of it. Best to use a four wheel drive and a tongue extender helps. A marina with rack storage may be able to launch it for you.

Brian S · Nov 17, 2015

I started with a dry sailed 15' boat, and would tow to the lake and rig each time for the first year, and then after that, I paid to store at the lake on the hard with the mast up. Then I got an O'day 192 kept in a slip. Although I still had the 15' with mast up storage for the "fun" boat, I found that I'd jump on the 192 to go sailing, and would only go to the trouble of launching the 15' boat for one or two races a season. It's a guilty feeling, but 10 minutes to pull off covers to get ready, and motor out, beats removing the cover, bending on sails, installing the rudder, and finally launching the boat, only to remember you have to be in before dark to de-rig. Slip it, you won't be disappointed, and you'll use it more often.

Also, before you do anything, find yourself a decent sailing school or sailing club with a good teaching program, and learn what you're doing before you buy a boat. Preferably, sail on several different kinds of boats to develop some experience. It will also help you determine what you're looking for in a boat.

Good luck!

rgranger · Nov 17, 2015

I have bought a lot of old sailboats....(see list) and the used boat market is kind of strange. If your boat looks great you get more money for it regardless of weather or not it actually is great.... AND if you have a lot of stuff on the boat that actually makes it great but your boat is old and the gel coat faded... you are not going to be able to sell the boat for much even if it is a great boat.

SO!!!!! the important thing to do is to look hard at the condition of the sails, the condition of the outboard motor and the condition of the trailer. New sails = $1000, New Outboard = $2000, New Trailer = $1500. A but ugly boat can often be made to look nice with a pressure wash and/or a fresh coat of paint.

And on a swing keel. YOU WANT TO LOOK AT THE KEEL, the keel pivot bolt hole and the keel trunk. If you find one you think you like... snap some pics and bring it back to the specific boat's forum on here. You will get great advice about what you can expect... and if you get a cosmetically challenged diamond in the rough... you can get a lot of great ideas of how to bring the shine back on this forum also.

Some other goodies to look for...
- An enclosed head
- Newer VHF radio
- Newly recovered cushions
- An alcohol stove that actually works
- Depth Finder
- A charging system on the O.B.
- Shore power

Also ask the owner for a test sail and really look at the condition of the main. If the pocket seems fullest at about mid-boom you have a blown main. Don't buy it. If the boat wants to round up hard in a relatively light wind... you have a blown main... don't buy it.

I've been buying and fixing up old boats for a long time now... and a but ugly boat, full of mold and stink w/newer O.B and a set of barely used sails that have been kept inside ... all sitting on a decent trailer... is the best bargain. ...

Pressure wash the inside and out... replace any carpet... new boat for less money.

My old boats
- Macgregor V21 (I've owned two of these)
- Macgregor V22-2
- Coronado 23'
- Coronado 25'
- Rhodes 22'
- Hobie 18'
- Balboa 26'
- Hunter 26'

Meriachee · Nov 17, 2015

Watch carefully when you launch and load. It's not the mistakes, it's how you react to them, and the first few times, do it in the week when there's few people around, not so there isn't a crowd (everybody has a score card, and they can do it better

), but do it so that you can take all the time you want. The 270 scared the crap out of me the first few times, and now it's all calm, but every time there's something, which usually leads to a tweak of this or that, so that next time it's smoother yet.

Tally Ho · Nov 17, 2015

I started from scratch about 5 years ago after 1 Sunday sail on a friends boat. On Lake Michigan, I really wanted:
1) 30+ foot boat - I ended up with a 28 foot boat, full depth fixed keel...1996 Hunter 280.
2) In-board diesel
3) a slip - I test sailed a Macgregor 26 that the owner kept on a trailer. It took an hour to rig and launch, and another hour + to trailer her and tear her down. I realized if I had to do that every time, I would not sail as much. I can get my boat ready to go from the slip in about 15 minutes. If you keep her mast up, on a trailer,it won't be as bad, but still a time killer if,you have other options.

I also wanted a newer, simple boat since I did not know much about maintenance and upkeep.

After 5 years, "upgraded" to a 1988 O'Day 322. Older, more upkeep, but also much more boat with lots of character. And by now, I have learned enough about upkeep and maintenance to be able to take care of her.

Good luck with your choice!

Greg

Sumner · Nov 18, 2015

Tally Ho said:
.... test sailed a Macgregor 26 that the owner kept on a trailer. It took an hour to rig and launch, and another hour + to trailer her and tear her down....Greg

Curious, was it a X or M, the power models, or a D or S, the displacement hulls? I know a number of guys that can get the D or S in the water in 30-45 minutes after getting to the ramp. I can't but I have lots of extra rigging that you don't need for day sailing such as topping lifts for the boom and anchor sail, lazy jacks and one line reefing. I want these items and don't day sail so no problem but if I day sailed I'd rig the boat up differently.

The 26 Macs are really easy to launch at about any ramp or even without one and...

... easy to beach if you want to,

Sumner

===============================================

1300 miles to The Bahamas and Back in the Mac

Endeavour 37 Mods...

MacGregor 26-S Mods...
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/endeavour-main/endeavour-index.html
Mac Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida, Bahamas

Tally Ho · Nov 20, 2015

I was looking at the 26M, but sailed on a 26X. Very interesting concept, but in the end, I decided not the boat for me.

I am sure it can be launched easily enough, but rigging it each time, and then taking the sails off, mast down, etc was way more work than I would want to do every time I wanted to sail. My other concern was a water-ballast boat, of fairly light construction and deck hardware on a big and scary Lake Michigan. I decided a bigger, heavier boat was the way I wanted to go.

When I go out now, I may only have a few hours and can be away from the dock in 10 minutes, even by myself.

Hobopacket · Nov 23, 2015

I know quite a few people that trailer store their boats with the mast up. Just keep everything you need in the cabin and keep the sails on the mast/deck in good UV storage bags and make sure to air them out every time you head out. This makes it a ten minute or so and your in the water. And the best part, your boat isn't in the water all the time, which isn't so great for swing keel boats.

This is a great way to sail. I have to step the mast every time I go out, which is why we take the powerboat alot more than the sail boat

CloudDiver · Nov 23, 2015

I can't speak for O'Day Boats, but if you read my resto thread on the C22 forum you'll see I'm pretty good with Catalina knowledge... with that said I would avoid a swing keel boat. To find on that is affordable (I have no idea what your budget is), you'd probably end up with one that needs work on the swing keel. Since you are planning to dry sail it from the trailer you'll probably store it outside as well for the winter; so unless you have to worry about getting into a garage door that is only 8 feet tall then go with a fixed keel since you don't care about how high it sits on the trailer. New design C22's can be found that have a fixed wing keel, and you will probably find more C-25's with fixed fin keels than swing keels. At the end of the day it is less maintenance, few holes in the bottom, and less hassle to have a fixed keel. I would go with the C-25 if you have a V-8 tow vehicle. The C-22 can be towed by smaller V-6 trucks and SUVs.
Months after I bought my C22 I found a Capri 25 that had always been dry sailed (no bottom paint ever!), had tons of extras, great race ready rigging, good sail inventory, and was very reasonably priced... It only needed cosmetic maintenance. I kick myself in the ass every time I think about it!

Brian S · Nov 24, 2015

Please keep in mind the difference between a swing keel and a centerboard.

A swing keel is generally a heavy cast iron keel which pivots like a centerboard, but when locked down provides ballast. These work well, but generally have maintenance issues, because a beefy pivot is needed, and some method of cranking up and down. Usually this is a cable and winch arrangement, but I understand Beneteau's screw gear system mounted at the head of the swing keel gets good marks.

A centerboard, on the other hand, is not weighted, other than to create negative buoyancy and thus sink. On boats such as O'days and Precisions, they are housed below the hull in a ballasted stub keel, and can be lifted by hand using a rope pendant. Since they aren't more than 50 pounds or so, the pivot is subject to much less wear and tear. Some boats still use a plate centerboard, and there could be issues with the ballast. O'day and Precisions use lead ballast, but older boats like the Montgomery 23 had a steel plate centerboard in the stub keel, and the keel was filled with steel punchings. On many boats, the keel laminate gets a crack admitting water to the ballast cavity, and the punchings swell with rust, binding the centerboard. I have seen pictures of someone cutting open the keel, digging out rusted punchings and resin, and re-filling with lead shot.

Also, don't confuse a swing keel with a lifting keel. Generally, a lifting keel is a ballasted daggerboard. There are many examples of this, such as the Macgregor 26D, or many Seaward boats designated with "RK" for "retractible keel." It's also very common for a sportboat keelboat such as the J70 or Melges 24 to have a high aspect performance oriented lifting keel for easier trailering.

Meriachee · Nov 24, 2015

The unballasted keel in the MacGregors have a nasty habit of banging against the trunk when the boat isn't moving. Leaving it down provided some lateral, or roll stability, but at a noise cost. I built a nylon insert for the keel with a hole that was fairly snug to the bolt, which helped, but ultimately didn't resolve the matter. I'm sure that any of the movable keels show this to some degree.

jwing · Dec 1, 2015

My experience is with a 19' boat, so all steps for me are similar, but easier than for a 25-footer. I kept my boat mast-up on a trailer one season; the next season I kept her in a slip. The pros/cons balance sheet is so close that I don't know what I'll do next year. But your question is about "dry sailing."

I found that launching and retrieving my trailered boat is really quite easy, with the set-up being no more or less than a slipped boat. The big difference is attaching the trailer to your car, which can be aggravating, and placing the trailered boat back in its tight slot between other trailered boats, at the end of the day and usually dark, or nearly dark, with plenty of bugs to feast on your ankles. So my advice is to try to negotiate for a spot that is easy to put your boat back in at the end of a day. A spot that you can pull through would be ideal. If you will need to back in, try to be at the end of a row.

Also, if the terrain between where you park the boat and the boat ramp is at all bumpy, you should consider taking your outboard motor off the bracket. Have somebody else drive while you walk behind the boat to observe how much the motor jiggles. That heavy weight out there jiggling around puts a lot of strain on the transom and the connecting bolts. If that is the case, you'll want a lightweight motor that you can carry and place on the bracket once the boat is either on the water or just before you back down the ramp.

Lastly, you should be able to launch and retrieve single-handedly, but don't be afraid to ask for assistance. Most people are happy to help out. Think of asking for help not as bothering other people, but as giving people an opportunity to do a good deed. BTW - that's the best way to meet people and make new friends at the marina.