Eye Splice double-braid

[All U Get]

Hah hah hah, I’ve done all the previous suggestions an have had great success. But I’ve been able to use old line by hand washing and soaking with fabric softener before drying to tie the eye. I believe it was Sampson rope that mentioned using a finis nail to hold cover and core at various points while tying the eye. That keeps the braids from slipping especially at the crossover.
The insert of core into the eye that is also occupied by the original core is the difficult part where the fid is tight and I lost the tape many times. Any bunching or the slightest wrinkle in the tape and you’ll snag a fiber.
I use two different hollow fids, one larger to create a path, the smaller to snake the core inside. Or I use a coat hanger which I bent in half and squeezed the end with pliers creating a narrow eye. This I feed from where I estimate the exit to be. The trick to this is attaching the core. Several splicing directions are vague on how this step is done, or where the core should end. I have had success by reducing the line size accomplished by removing 3 or 4 strands(meaning all the mini fibers that weave in and out). Some instructions delay this until you have pulled the core out beyond the eye prior to milking the cover. I do this at staggered points so I have a nice tapper.
The real gem is once I have the core taped to my fid, I dampen the everything but the tape. Then I drip a little Dawn on the core to pull it through. The soap also helps when I finally milk that crossover into the eye. There are times when I have had to use a winch to assist in pulling the core inside. I’ve also rolled it under my foot to stretch the cover. One nasty old line we tried attaching the eye to a pole and pulling the line with a car. It never completely came together, but if a dock line could pull a pole out of the ground, it could certainly hold my boat.

Dyneema is much simpler, I had done many with 50 X diameter and sewed whipping thread into the splice. Now the thinking is 70 X.

 

[jssailem]

Great write up.

Dyneema is much simpler, I had done many with 50 X diameter and sewed whipping thread into the splice. Now the thinking is 70 X.

Whip locking dyneema has been shown to weaken the splice to the strength of the whipping thread. Best to use a locking splice knot, and the longer bury for critical jobs that will have a lot of force applied to the splice.

 

[All U Get]

Great write up.

Whip locking dyneema has been shown to weaken the splice to the strength of the whipping thread. Best to use a locking splice knot, and the longer bury for critical jobs that will have a lot of force applied to the splice.

That I hadn’t heard, thanks John.

 

[jssailem]

For the same reason, (preserve the fibers, do not let them break) you want to do the long bury using a taper on the buried line. Dyneema does not like to bend. Avoiding sharp bends in the line will extend the strength of the line. For that reason the buried line should be tapered not just cut off. Preferably a 12 to one taper.. I have found a 6 to one taper sufficient. and easy to do.

If you are doing a few splices or soft shackles at a time that turns out to be a fair bit of cutting. The dulling of my favorite steal blade had me seek out an alternate solution. That solution turned out to be a ceramic blade. It worked wonders and made my job easier.

I'll look into the scissors suggested.

 

[Hunter216]

Dyneema does not like to bend.

I’m curious about why you say this? From my limited exposure its easy to bend it into any shape you want but won’t kink or take on a particular “memory” shape that would imply any type of individual fibre deterioration.

 

[thinwater]

Great write up.

Whip locking dyneema has been shown to weaken the splice to the strength of the whipping thread. Best to use a locking splice knot, and the longer bury for critical jobs that will have a lot of force applied to the splice.

Please share the data. Depending on what you mean, this assertion is entirely inaccurate. The type of lock has very little effect on the strength of the splice. In fact, large line is very seldom Brummel spliced, it is always a simple bury with lock stitching.

Also, whip lock is a specific type of end finish applied to prevent fraying. I think you used the wrong term.

A relatively long bury with tapered end is critical.

 

[jssailem]

It is what I have read about the properties of dyneema. As I understand sharp bends in the line can significantly reduce dyneema line strength. Brian Toss stated this when discussing the shackle He identified the area of weakness/failure from testing - as the knot. In his design knot the line at the knot is doubled at the point of failure.

Here is what one commercial source states.

• Splicing Dyneema® - Dyneema® Ropes with different constructions made super light and strong!
  It is worth to mention that Dyneema® lines are losing strength when connected by a knot when being bent over a small item or spliced. The strength of a Dyneema® line spliced by authorized riggers from Dynamica Ropes, is reduced by app. 10%. In cases of ropes connected by a knot, the loss of strength is app. 60%
  

 

[jssailem]

Not having the test equipment, I think it would be interesting to test and get definitive data.

 

[thinwater]

Not having the test equipment, I think it would be interesting to test and get definitive data.

It's been done by Samson and Starzinger. Splice strength, both ways, has probably been tested thousands of times in QC testing. I have done some pull-testing, ad I have sent samples to both Starzinger and NER for pull testing. Bottom line: it was never the lock portion of the splice that failed. Furthermore, in actuall use, it is never the splice that fails, it is always chafe. Finally, you won't see a Brummel in line over ~ 1/2-inch. A Brummell is just a pretty no-sew method that looks good and is faster than neat sewing in small line. In both cases, the actual load is carried by the Chinese finger lock.

According to Samson, a bury splice with lock stitching is 90-100%. You can't do better than 100%, therefor the line is not weakened. https://samsonrope.com/docs/default...trand_c1_eye_splice_web.pdf?sfvrsn=b2d98cae_2

The reason the lock method has little effect on strength is that there are TWO strands carrying the load at that location, not just one. The splice will always fail at the start of the splice, which is why the taper is important.

BTW, the lock by itself is not very strong, similar to a knot. There have been some high-profile failures, where the tail bury was skipped.

 

[Hunter216]

There is test data on sites such as l-36 etc but my “opinion” FWIW is that when the dyneema, spectra type lines are manufactured they have a very consistent “strength” that can be compromised to some degree by any kind of “use” which would include manipulation during splicing, knots, running through sheaves, cleats, environment etc.

The user can easily use a diameter of this type of line that will likely far exceed the “load” that it will be subjected to.

The splices etc should be executed properly but I think there is a built in margin of error due to the “over design” characteristics of the actual material

 

[jssailem]

Thinwater, you have the engineering skills and the resources to explore this stitching issue. I note the that the products in the Sampson link were Olefin, Polyester, and Nylon not dyneema, spectra or amsteel. The issue, as I understand it, with the dyneema spec lines, is the material has sensitivity to heat 140degrees C and the frictional coefficient of the material strands.

Here is the a video done of Brian. It starts at his discussion of the knot and the testing they did regarding breaking his soft shackle.

Additional anecdotal information from DMM regarding testing of dyneema webbing and testing they did suggest two the same issues occurred - the material breaking from heat stress or the knot slipping. They did not specifically address the elements of stitching webbing.

Knotting Dyneema®? | DMM Wales

dmmclimbing.com

I really am not looking at the last 5% of the issue I am more interested in the 85% solution. I will choose 1/4" dyneema instead of 1/8" because it has a 9600lb tested break strength compared to 3000lb. I'll choose a knot that doubles the line at the point described as the failure point instead of a knot that relies on the knot and might slip out. I'll prefer a long bury to a short bury and stitching.

From the economics of the issue it will cost me pennies to use a little extra line for the long bury.

Practical costing.
Robline Soft shackle $16.27 Single line breaking strength posted as 2200 lbs

BrianToss designed Soft shackle $3.50 Singleline breaking strength 9,600 lbs.

I would be pleased to submit a few knots to your testing skills and equipment. I am very interested in scientific discovery around this issue.

 

[thinwater]

Thinwater, you have the engineering skills and the resources to explore this stitching issue. I note the that the products in the Sampson link were Olefin, Polyester, and Nylon not dyneema, spectra or amsteel. The issue, as I understand it, with the dyneema spec lines, is the material has sensitivity to heat 140degrees C and the frictional coefficient of the material strands....

Incorrect. Pasted from the link: "Class II ropes are made in whole or part from any of the following high modulus fibers: Dyneema®, Vectran®, Technora®, and Zylon®. " The stitching material can be polyester, but in larger lines it is a strand pulled from the line and thus matches the line. That is my normal practice from 3/16" and up. You can also buy Dyneema whipping twine, which I use with the smaller stuff.

In practice, the stiching is NOT tight (from the link, "Pull the twine snug, but not tight"), does not rub hard on the rope, and is ONLY there to protect against shifting under zero load. The stitching is little tighter than the weave of the rope.

 

[jssailem]

OK. Your link took me to the Class 1 eye splice for Samson 12 strand line.

Exploring the website I find the Class 2 eye splice for Samson. I see they are following the same stitch locking procedure. and using the same text "By following the procedure below, the splice can retain from 90% to 100% of average new rope strength"

https://samsonrope.com/docs/default...trand_c2_eye_splice_web.pdf?sfvrsn=f00ad20c_2

1. Are we expected to deduce they have tested both class 1 and 2, all of the lines products, using the methods prescribed - lock stitching?
2. Why, if the issue of a squared line in a buried splice does not matter do both of the prescribed splices use tapered bury as, I suggested.
3. The information I have voiced is not to the eye-splice but to the soft shackle as discussed above.

Being a natural sceptic, when I see information printed in identical form and spacing that the marketing department may have just copied the information to save time. That they believed the differences are not significant. That is why I encourage testing of ideas. I have suspected you to believe in testing what has not yet been proven.

• If you desire and feel more comfortable applying a lock stitch then by all means do it.
• Is it required to get a strong soft shackle? check out the breaking of soft shackle dyneema in the video at the bottom.

These boys may not be scientists or engineers, but they do have interesting equipment and like to break things which I found fun to watch.

 

[thinwater]

OK. Your link took me to the Class 1 eye splice for Samson 12 strand line.
View attachment 188913
Exploring the website I find the Class 2 eye splice for Samson. I see they are following the same stitch locking procedure. and using the same text "By following the procedure below, the splice can retain from 90% to 100% of average new rope strength"

https://samsonrope.com/docs/default...trand_c2_eye_splice_web.pdf?sfvrsn=f00ad20c_2

1. Are we expected to deduce they have tested both class 1 and 2, all of the lines products, using the methods prescribed - lock stitching?
2. Why, if the issue of a squared line in a buried splice does not matter do both of the prescribed splices use tapered bury as, I suggested.
3. The information I have voiced is not to the eye-splice but to the soft shackle as discussed above.

Being a natural sceptic, when I see information printed in identical form and spacing that the marketing department may have just copied the information to save time. That they believed the differences are not significant. That is why I encourage testing of ideas. I have suspected you to believe in testing what has not yet been proven.

• If you desire and feel more comfortable applying a lock stitch then by all means do it.
• Is it required to get a strong soft shackle? check out the breaking of soft shackle dyneema in the video at the bottom.

These boys may not be scientists or engineers, but they do have interesting equipment and like to break things which I found fun to watch.

Samson batch tests line by making up 2-eye dog bones and pull testing over pins. In other words, they pull test splices for every batch QC test. Some other rope manufacturers use a drum wrap, but some use splices. From a point of view, it is only the spliced strength that matters (since there will always be splices).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qROdxCK3Z3c. No Brummel and not a 72:1 bury (it is actually full strength by about 25-30:1--the rest is safety).

The taper at the end of the bury is one of the most important parts of the splice. I never said otherwise. I said the lock method does not matter [if the bury is long enough]. This is why, for example, Dyneema splicers suffer to find a knife that will cut it, instead of using a hot knife, which would be much easier. The hot knife cut ends would ruin the splice.

I have done the tests. So have many, many others. Google it. You are relying on written word because you do not test, and then denying the word of people who have tested. Interesting approach, but I wouldn't call it skeptical. As for my being "more comfortable with a lock stitch," are you serious? That is how the big boys do it and it is really quite easy. Just weave a strand to and frow a number of times. I also use Brummel locks, each according to which is more appropriate. I have used both in standing rigging and consider them both 100% reliable. I have never had a splice fail. I doubt many have (not bury splices--double braid can go wrong).

Obviously soft shackles can be made with no stitching (generally are). Funny question.

 

[MikeHoncho]

Make a fid out of fine piano wire .

 

[JamesG161]

I am starting the process of learning (I hope) how to complete some splices.

Here is an example of an Eye Splice
Eye Splice
Jim...

 

[jibes138]

I tried to search for this picture but couldn't find it. I gave away all my fids and pushers and other high priced splicing tools in favor of this home made tool that works a lot better. For small diameter line just use some smaller wire like safety wire bent in half. The idea is just hook the ends in the weave of the line, then tape it tight with painters tape or electrical tape. This tool was made from a coat hanger, I've done dozens of splices with it very successfully.

 

[jibes138]

For small diameter line just use some smaller wire like safety wire bent in half.

If using safety wire bent in half twist it several times to give it a little more rigidity. Otherwise it works fine.

 

[LloydB]

Klein Tools #2100-5

 

[ricksoth]

I completed my first double braid (Stay Set 3/8") eye. I used home-made fids (knitting needles cut and then opened linearly to make the "U" shaped slot where the line is set and taped) and the wire puller from a very thin piano wire I had in my junk box.

The cover inside the eye is a bit looser against the core than the standing part where by finger is in the photo. I'm not sure what I did wrong that caused this.

With the Flemish eye on the other end, I can now check to see if this 3/8 pulls through the mast head easily or not before purchasing that size for the 3 halyards that need replacement.

What did I do wrong that made the cover loose against the core inside the eye? It's not bunched up or really loose, just not as tight as on the standing part after milking the cover multiple times. It seems like I must have gotten more cover "bunched up" during the process somewhere.