Dauphine Island Race

Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Flotation takes up a VAST amount of space.

This picture shows what my boat's PO had packed into every nook and cranny in the cabin, filled all the lockers and screwed down their covers. After spending the better part of a day undoing this idiocy, I did some quick research on the buoyancy of styrofoam.

This amount of foam, right here in this photo, would have been just enough to float my KEEL. Roughly 550 pounds, out of a 2600 pound boat. So figure five times this much to keep the vessel afloat.
Its actually a bit more complex.

You don't have to support the weight of the boat with foam, you have to support only the difference between the density of the boats construction and the actual water it displaces. After the keel, the majority of a fiberglass or wood sailboat is very close to neutral density. Boats require surprising little extra buoyancy to keep afloat.... some racy designs like the First 210 and the Pogo 12.50 have positive flotation built in and you would never know it.
 

Kermit

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Jul 31, 2010
5,657
AquaCat 12.5 17342 Wateree Lake, SC
This amount of foam, right here in this photo, would have been just enough to float my KEEL.
At least you would still have your keel. Then just refloat your boat and you're back in business. ;-)
 
Sep 30, 2013
3,541
1988 Catalina 22 North Florida
Its actually a bit more complex.

You don't have to support the weight of the boat with foam, you have to support only the difference between the density of the boats construction and the actual water it displaces. After the keel, the majority of a fiberglass or wood sailboat is very close to neutral density. Boats require surprising little extra buoyancy to keep afloat.... some racy designs like the First 210 and the Pogo 12.50 have positive flotation built in and you would never know it.
I stand corrected! :)
 

Kermit

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Jul 31, 2010
5,657
AquaCat 12.5 17342 Wateree Lake, SC
Gene,

I miss your old nic. You have a great name and all but Dixie Dawg was way cool.
 
Sep 27, 2014
57
Montgomery 17 driveway
I would suggest that the law requiring boats under 20 feet to have full flotation should be extended to 26 feet. The reality is, in boats that small, full flotation does not intrude that much on space. Normally boats under 26 feet are only used for short distances, so storage space is not nearly as critical. I have a 24 foot boat with full flotation. Tests have shown that when it is on its side, the boat floats very high in the water, such that water does not get in the hatchway. My understanding is that they tried to sink on once, but the water wanted to dump back out the hatchway, and really would not fill up. There is also floatation in the cockpit backrests to help the boat right its self. From all that floatation, I have to think there would always be air in the cockpit. I really don't think I would want to own a boat without full floatation.
Thank you for the info about the full flotation for boats under 20 foot law. I was unaware of that and my 1977 built certainly didn't follow that rule. I have been wondering where to put the floatation since the boat weighs almost 1700# on a 15 foot waterline. Space is at a premium since there is other necessary as well as optional equipment that should and could be put aboard.
I would send anybody below and close the hatch during storm conditions, personally. I realize storm duration is a factor but certainly not in a Mobile Bay type situation.
This string certainly has me reconsidering my storm preparedness.
Thanks to all who have contributed.
 
Jun 2, 2004
3,396
Hunter 23.5 Fort Walton Yacht Club, Florida
Concern With Being in the Cabin

I'd be worried about being knocked unconscious by knocking my noggin on a bulkhead or it being slammed by a cooler, toolbox or any number of brutal object flying through the air as the boat does cartwheels.

Id rather take my chances clinging to the deck digging my fingernails or even teeth if necessary into the gelcoat to stay with the boat. I hate enclosed spaces and not being able to see what is happening around me while being cooped up in a plastic shell is more terrifying than the idea of swimming home through the alligators and snapping turtles in a violent storm. At least being able to see what's happening gives you some sense of control whether you actually have a modicum or none at all.
 
Sep 27, 2014
57
Montgomery 17 driveway
Rick,
I just reread my post you are referring to and I inadvertently left out some very key words. What I meant to say was that I think everybody should be topside in a storm for as long as they can stand it. Having claustrophobia and being shut in a cabin being bounced around it not my idea of weathering a storm. I agree, at least you can see what is happening which is usually less appalling than what you can imagine from just the sounds!
 
Jun 21, 2004
2,533
Beneteau 343 Slidell, LA
With all the discussions regarding the Dauphine Island tragedy, especially with regards to PFD's, I decided I had better check out my two auto inflated jackets. Opened them up, inflated with my compressor to check for integrity & leaks. The bobbins on both jackets had expired and one was obviously compromised. One CO2 cylinder obviously had a leak as the weight was far under spec-----my bad. Considering all of the preventive maintenance that I perform on the boat, inspecting the PFD's is probably most important. I usually have the local Power Squad or Coast Guard Aux inspect the boat annually to hopefully avoid a boarding by the real coast guard. From now on, this will be my reminder to check out the PFD's routinely. I would have been in a hell of a fix if I had gone overboard with bad cylinder or bobbin in my PFD.
 
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Rick D

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Jun 14, 2008
7,139
Hunter Legend 40.5 Shoreline Marina Long Beach CA
Ditto. I make it an annual project after once finding a pin on an auto inflate which depressurized without inflating when the tablet slowly disintegrated from humidity.
 
Aug 15, 2014
114
Catalina 36 Deale, MD
The above stories about inflatables were in the back of my mind when shopping for PFDs. Our boats already have sizable amount of preventative and unscheduled maintenance. For my requirements today, I was not interested in adding PFDs to that list and went with the Coastal by Salus with its built in D-ring harness.
http://www.salusmarine.com/?products=coastal
 

Attachments

Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
The above stories about inflatables were in the back of my mind when shopping for PFDs. Our boats already have sizable amount of preventative and unscheduled maintenance. For my requirements today, I was not interested in adding PFDs to that list and went with the Coastal by Salus with its built in D-ring harness.
http://www.salusmarine.com/?products=coastal
That's a decent looking dinghy vest. Even on our 36.7, several crew members wear their dinghy vests, mostly out of habit from their dinghy days. But they suffer greatly on long hot days. In general, most follow a simple rule. If its not uncommon you will end up in the water, wear a dinghy vest. If it IS uncommon (keelboat) inflatable might be better.

But the simple fact is there is no simple rule. Wear what makes the most sense for you.

But I have to say, when I went to that web site you linked, I saw this and threw up in my mouth.

 
Jun 8, 2004
2,857
Catalina 320 Dana Point
I don't even like fenders hanging from a lifeline, can't imagine who thought it a good idea to hang crew from them.:confused:
 

Gunni

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Mar 16, 2010
5,937
Beneteau 411 Oceanis Annapolis
Rick,
I just reread my post you are referring to and I inadvertently left out some very key words. What I meant to say was that I think everybody should be topside in a storm for as long as they can stand it. Having claustrophobia and being shut in a cabin being bounced around it not my idea of weathering a storm. I agree, at least you can see what is happening which is usually less appalling than what you can imagine from just the sounds!
Not all inflatable PFD require maintenance like those with dissolving "pills". Buy one with a quality hydrostatic auto inflator and all you have to do is check the ready-window indicator, and blow them up each year - leave overnight to confirm that they are tight.
 

Gunni

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Mar 16, 2010
5,937
Beneteau 411 Oceanis Annapolis
How about bare poles and a series drogue (or any other drogue) off the stern.
No good. You have to be making some way fore reaching to have a stern drogue, slow the boat and hold your bow into the wind.
 
Jul 27, 2011
5,002
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
That's a decent looking dinghy vest. Even on our 36.7, several crew members wear their dinghy vests, mostly out of habit from their dinghy days. But they suffer greatly on long hot days. In general, most follow a simple rule. If its not uncommon you will end up in the water, wear a dinghy vest. If it IS uncommon (keelboat) inflatable might be better.

But the simple fact is there is no simple rule. Wear what makes the most sense for you.

But I have to say, when I went to that web site you linked, I saw this and threw up in my mouth.

Yeah-- that's a pretty astonishing photograph. I guess people sometimes just fail to grasp the functional logic of design and apparatus, etc. I doubt the boat is even equipped with jacklines. Hey!--everybody bring your expensive harness and lifevest and we'll just hook into the life-lines!!.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Not all inflatable PFD require maintenance like those with dissolving "pills". Buy one with a quality hydrostatic auto inflator and all you have to do is check the ready-window indicator, and blow them up each year - leave overnight to confirm that they are tight.
Yea. Every year it seems (during a long wet slog uphill) someone sitting on the rail will have their vest 'pop' due to the drenching. Next time they show up with a vest with a Hammar 1F auto hydrostatic inflator in it.
 
Feb 14, 2014
7,421
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
After reading this group of comments and seeing the video I have a few comments to the "Monday Morning Quarterbacks".

1) Sail this part of the Gulf and the Mississippi/Alabama barrier islands provide one of safest sailing areas of the world. They aren't called "Barrier Islands" for nothing.

2) Captain is responsible of safety of crew. The safest spot for the crew is aboard a floating boat. So boat safety is key.

3) PFD with safety tether keeps crew on board and floating if boat is lost.

4) Rescue of a Man Over Board MOB in those wind and seas in near impossible or to give assistance. Best done by GPS coordinates to Coast Guard who are trained.

5) The Barrier Islands create "channels" to focus wind and waves.

6) In talking to friends who retired from charter sailing after 35 year, I can remember a key they told me. "The storm may appear 30 minutes away but it is NOT! Secure your boat and sails, use auxiliary power if available, don safety PFD/tether/note GPS, head into wind."

7) LIGHTNING! On most large sailboats, the mast and standing rigging is bonded and grounded to the keel. This makes the boat nearly invisible to lightning. Since water dissipates the strike voltage rapidly, you are probably in the best spot below the mast "lightning rod shield". Never let go the helm as shown in video. If you are worried, buy a pair of "high voltage gloves" to man the helm. Life rails are not typically part of mast and rigging and are insulated.

8) Batten down the hatches... so to speak. Make sure cabin, if you have one, is as water tight as possible. Most boats with weighted keels are self-righting, if not filled with water.

9) Learn how to handle high winds in a sailboat. They are designed to manage winds.

The tragedy is a learning experience, the hard way.
Jim...
 
Jun 11, 2011
1,243
Hunter 41 Lewes
7) LIGHTNING! On most large sailboats, the mast and standing rigging is bonded and grounded to the keel. This makes the boat nearly invisible to lightning. Since water dissipates the strike voltage rapidly, you are probably in the best spot below the mast "lightning rod shield". Never let go the helm as shown in video. If you are worried, buy a pair of "high voltage gloves" to man the helm. Life rails are not typically part of mast and rigging and are insulated.
Jim, there is no level of PPE or high voltage gloves to guard against lightning. There are actually some solar farms that exceed all current Personal Protective Equipment.
 
Sep 20, 2014
1,320
Rob Legg RL24 Chain O'Lakes
Thank you for the info about the full flotation for boats under 20 foot law. I was unaware of that and my 1977 built certainly didn't follow that rule. I have been wondering where to put the floatation since the boat weighs almost 1700# on a 15 foot waterline. Space is at a premium since there is other necessary as well as optional equipment that should and could be put aboard.
I would send anybody below and close the hatch during storm conditions, personally. I realize storm duration is a factor but certainly not in a Mobile Bay type situation.
This string certainly has me reconsidering my storm preparedness.
Thanks to all who have contributed.
Along the lines of what Jackdaw stated, it may not be as difficult as one might first assume. My previous boat was also a 17 footer and had full flotation. The area under the 1/4 berths was sealed, and some area under the bow was sealed off as well. If my calculations are correct, you only need ~60% of the total weight of the fiberglass to be in equilibrium to water minus the weight of the foam. That of course does not address the weight of the ballast. One of the areas that was difficult to use was the area directly under the floor of the cockpit in between the berths. not much fit there, but it could have easily been filled with foam. Your boat has area under the cockpit backrests that is likely available as well. Depending on what your cushions are made of, they can be made to provide buoyancy as well. If your lines don't run through your mast, I would fill that with foam as well - just don't fill it with spray foam or you will not be able to bend it. Having the mast float will help the boat right its self.