Dauphine Island Race

Oct 26, 2008
6,043
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Flotation isn't necessarily the answer ...

For many of the older pocket cruisers, it just isn't practical to attempt to stuff flotation in the seemingly "unused" areas. It simply isn't feasible to make up the weight of a lead or steel ballasted keel. The spaces you may think of as "unused" are actually necessary for access to boat systems in most cases. I couldn't (or wouldn't) stuff foam in any area where I need to gain access. Under gunwales, I need access to stanchion fittings, underside of winches, runs that include electrical or controls for the engine panel, for instance. Under the cockpit, I need access to the fuel tank, the engine, exhaust, mufflers, the drive shaft, shaft log, steering components such as cable, wheels and all components associated with the rudder. Aft of the lazerette, I need access to the cockpit drains, water heater, water pump, fuel fill, etc. So that pretty much eliminates all of the seemingly "unused space" aft of the cabin.

Within the cabin, under the settees, I need space for water tanks and plumbing. Behind the seat cushions is the hull. Just under the deck, access for wiring & the stanchion fittings. Going forward, I need space for the toilet plumbing and the holding tank, and more fresh water for the toilet (if I want it). Forward of that is the anchor locker.

So where is this flotation supposed to go? It's easy to see how older pocket cruisers just don't have the space. Of course, they don't seem to make new pocket cruisers in the sizes from about 24' to 28' like they used to. The newer boats in that size seem to be oriented to much lighter displacement and daysailing or racing use (not cruising for sure) so it makes sense to add flotation where the space isn't monopolized by "systems". But I hardly see any call for legislating this requirement as you previously mentioned. Why should government stick their nose where it is not necessary. Why should there be legislation that forces all designs into a shoe box? I say let designers and markets dictate where the boat designs go.

From a safety standpoint, I think it unnecessary. The keel performs the self-righting function, not a foam filled mast. I want my halyards in the mast, not foam. Good seamanship dictates keeping your hatchboards locked in place and reefing or dropping sails when conditions go south, as precaution in the event of a knockdown. Thus self-righting should be assured without need for flotation. But I'll acknowledge that sad events can't always be avoided and I don't mean to point a finger at anybody who suffers losses.

In the case of the Cal 24 that sunk, I haven't heard the circumstances. But with all the talk about how shallow the bay is, it is hard to imagine that the boat turned turtle, unless they happened to be in a deep water area. It's not hard to imagine that the mast may have been driven into the mud, though, in which case, flotation may not have been any help.
 
Sep 20, 2014
1,320
Rob Legg RL24 Chain O'Lakes
I should maybe qualify my comments regarding increase the length requirement for full flotation to mean new boats from this point forward. I can see that doing ti after the fact could be difficult. You will find that boats that do have built in flotation really don't lack space. While I gave my boat as an example, there are other ways, such as sandwich hull construction with foam core like in the Bennys. Not only do you have strength with lightweight, but also have floatation. MacGregor 26M is another boat with full flotation.


A single 2 inch 4X8 sheet of foam provides about 330 LBS of buoyancy, depending on how much it weighs. So, what ever floats your boat...
 
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Oct 26, 2008
6,043
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Of course that boat is so light that the capacity is just 6 or 960 pounds (according to the Owners Instructions). If you run the boat as a power boat without water ballast, the capacity is just 4 or 640 pounds. Sorry, I don't give it an endorsement for safety at sea. Owners Instructions devote a lengthy discussion towards the means for preventing capsize. In essence, they wrap the boat with a warning.

Notice how the boat is tied to the dock and the folks are clustered at the centerline ... motionless. What do you think happens when it is overturned in wind and waves? My guess is that you would be losing your grip trying to hang on to the sides as it is rolling.

Yes, flotation is fine for very lightweight boats. I prefer a boat with a heavy keel that is stable while it is floating rather than a 3/4 submerged boat. I don't really buy the safety of a boat that counts flotation as a safety feature. Of course, that heavy keel has it's own issues. Every boat is a compromise in many ways.
 
Feb 14, 2014
7,399
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
Jim, there is no level of PPE or high voltage gloves to guard against lightning. There are actually some solar farms that exceed all current Personal Protective Equipment.
You are absolutely correct about PPE! Typical helms, as shown in that video, are steel through bolted to the rudder, thus a possible connection to "near strike" lightning voltage being dissipated by the water.

But if...

You are not directly hit, then the person at the helm must be part of a conductive path from ocean to where???

In this video, the deck was fiberglas, the helmsman was, most likely, in deck shoes, and therefore "insulated" from a current path.

My comment was meant to calm disbelievers by adding the insulation of "lineman gloves", if they felt better.

By the way, if you and your boat takes an unlikely direct hit, the hole in you boat and your ashes will be apparent.
___
This a quote from an article on lightning..

It is generally accepted that this cone of protection extends 45 degrees, all around, from the tip of the metal protrusion. This means that if the aluminum mast of the average sailing vessel is properly bonded to the vessel's other major metal masses and is given a direct, low-resistance conductive path to ground, the entire boat should fall within the protected zone.

http://www.kp44.org/ftp/ConeOfProtectionFromLightning.pdf

My point is helmsman should NEVER surrender the helm in a storm, unless relieved.
Jim...
 
Jun 2, 2004
3,390
Hunter 23.5 Fort Walton Yacht Club, Florida
Telling Numbers

Out of 125 boats registered for the race only 8 did not start. That is only one for every sixteen. A couple of those may have been for weather but there are always a number who register and do not participate, kids sick, hung-over, wife makes a better offer, etc...

These are people who know and live the local weather patterns. They knew they were likely to get rained on a bit but to predict what came about despite what the Weather Channel said would take a psychic of significant ability.

http://www.al.com/news/mobile/index.ssf/2015/05/dont_let_your_guard_down_proph.html
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Y
___
This a quote from an article on lightning..

It is generally accepted that this cone of protection extends 45 degrees, all around, from the tip of the metal protrusion. This means that if the aluminum mast of the average sailing vessel is properly bonded to the vessel's other major metal masses and is given a direct, low-resistance conductive path to ground, the entire boat should fall within the protected zone.

http://www.kp44.org/ftp/ConeOfProtectionFromLightning.pdf


Jim...
LOL. Is this the absolutely WORST kind of science. Anyone can dream up this kind of stuff up. Sadly people read and believe it.

Truth here, from a somewhat more reliable source.

http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls/cone-of-protection-myth.html
 
Jun 11, 2009
5
Macgregor 22 Mobile, AL
Out of 125 boats registered for the race only 8 did not start. That is only one for every sixteen. A couple of those may have been for weather but there are always a number who register and do not participate...
Very true.
I know of two who withdrew, both sailing J22's, one single-handing who was at the start and decided the gusts were just too much without crew, the other had two crew members, all three with considerable sailing experience, and they didn't like the looks of the forecast and never left the dock. In both cases, as well as my own (I was all set to go out and watch the race but didn't, the weather being only one factor) it's hard to be all set to race, you've prepared, you've paid your entry fee, only to pull out at the last minute...very hard decision
 
Feb 14, 2014
7,399
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
I didn't want turn this is into a lightning discussion, but Faraday cage is not a myth or done with "stick figure" science debunking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage

Look at the top of a community water tower for a "lightning rod" to use "Faraday Cage" SCIENCE as a cone of protection. Every wonder why water towers are not destroyed in a lightning storm, but poorly grounded wood trees are blown apart?


Last points....
1) Protection does not mean PREVENTION. It means you reduce the chance of your boat being hit versus flat sea water.
2) Do your own research and not rely on uninformed others to mislead.
3) Why are sailboats allowed in marina's if they are "lightening attractors"?
4) What harm does it do your boat to ground your mast?

Master of Science and 25 years of industrial construction,
Jim...
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
I didn't want turn this is into a lightning discussion, but Faraday cage is not a myth or done with "stick figure" science debunking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage

Look at the top of a community water tower for a "lightning rod" to use "Faraday Cage" SCIENCE as a cone of protection. Every wonder why water towers are not destroyed in a lightning storm, but poorly grounded wood trees are blown apart?


Last points....
1) Protection does not mean PREVENTION. It means you reduce the chance of your boat being hit versus flat sea water.
2) Do your own research and not rely on uninformed others to mislead.
3) Why are sailboats allowed in marina's if they are "lightening attractors"?
4) What harm does it do your boat to ground your mast?

Master of Science and 25 years of industrial construction,
Jim...
Jim,

I certainly don't want to get into a debate about Lightning of all things. Nor have a resume measuring contest with you.

But you quoted this:

It is generally accepted that this cone of protection extends 45 degrees, all around, from the tip of the metal protrusion
That is just wrong. No reputable science supports this. And to the point you brought up, protection for a tower is one thing. But nothing in that protects a person standing next to it, who is almost as likely to be struck.

Oh, as the the 'stick figure' diagram, that was created by the National Lightning Safety Institute, a highly regarded organization that conducts peer-reviewed science on that nature and effect of lightning. The person who created it is a national recognised authority on lightning. I assume the 'stick-figure' nature of the diagram as done to explain the fallacy of the 'cone of protection' concept to a wide a range of people as possible.
 
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Sep 20, 2014
1,320
Rob Legg RL24 Chain O'Lakes
One big problem with information on lightning is that there were many assumptions about how lightning worked, based on information tested in a lab. In much more recent times, it has been discovered that those assumptions are incorrect. The basic problem is that the amount of energy contained in the clouds is far more than could ever be created in a lab. Basically what we now know is that the large amount of energy completely swamps any type of lightning rod's ability to discharge localized build up of static charge. So while a rod may provide a strike point, it does not discharge and protect anything. The capability of your tiny little mast attract the electrical build up over a several square mile storm is pretty small. Even if it does hit a metal object first, you can still get hit. Ask me how I know...
 
Jun 11, 2011
1,243
Hunter 41 Lewes
I'm going to have to make you all consider a different angle on lightning and that is heat. The real power in electric is heat over time. A three phase circuit of just 30 amps at 480 volts shorted out (deliberately) till the breaker tripped, 10-18 1/60th's of a second (that is a really short time) can produce temperatures 3 times the surface of the sun. That was a repeated test with consistently measured results. Think of what kind of heat is involved in lightning. If your in the cone, I'd make bet you won't survive.
 
Jul 12, 2011
1,165
Leopard 40 Jupiter, Florida
May 17, 2004
5,026
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
It's an interesting report to read. Some questions that come to my mind as I look it over:

- It looks like the investigation was completed and documented in 2016, but the recommended actions were only addressed and released now?
- What is US Sailing going to do with the recommendations? While I agree they would increase safety, they may be hard to implement. For example, can it really be expected for every boat in every weekday evening race to report a full crew list 30 minutes before the race? Things like that sound like very academic ways to reduce risk, but may not be practical in the real world.
- I'd be interested in more info on what led to the specific capsizes, as compared to the boats that survived. Was it just luck of not being in the wrong part of the lake, or were there other steps that skippers of the surviving boats took that enabled them to remain safe?
 
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Apr 3, 2019
579
Macgregor 26M Mobile AL
The race was over for many boats when the storm hit. Some boats were coming back from the island to their marina or launch point. The list of damaged/capsized boats is likely larger than the official list.

Another video from a different perspective...
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
It's an interesting report to read. Some questions that come to my mind as I look it over:

- It looks like the investigation was completed and documented in 2016, but the recommended actions were only addressed and released now?
- What is US Sailing going to do with the recommendations? While I agree they would increase safety, they may be hard to implement. For example, can it really be expected for every boat in every weekday evening race to report a full crew list 30 minutes before the race? Things like that sound like very academic ways to reduce risk, but may not be practical in the real world.
- I'd be interested in more info on what led to the specific capsizes, as compared to the boats that survived. Was it just luck of not being in the wrong part of the lake, or were there other steps that skippers of the surviving boats took that enabled them to remain safe?
US Sailing will probably not do much more than make recommendations. That makes perfect sense because it is the Yacht Clubs, as the event Organizing Committee (OC) that sets all rules regarding an event in the NOR and SI. All the one-size-fits all rules are already in the RRS.

OCs must match rules to the needs of the event and locale. At WYC we do not require boats to furnish crew lists for day races on Minnetonka, but we do for night races there and also all races on Lake Superior. Let me tell you it is VERY EMBARASSING when police and first responders ask for how many people and names involved in an incident, and you have no idea.
 
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May 17, 2004
5,026
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
OCs must match rules to the needs of the event and locale. At WYC we do not requite boats to furnish crew lists for day races on Minnetonka, but we do for night races there and all races on Lake Superior. Let me tell you it is VERY EMBARASSING when police and first responders ask for how many people and names involved in an incident, and you have no idea
That makes sense to me. Distance races and overnights seem like very reasonable places to expect crew lists. When I read the report it sounded like a suggestion for a blanket requirement in the RRS, applying to every beer can race etc. A recommendation for OC's to consider it appeals to me much more.
 
Jan 13, 2009
391
J Boat 92 78 Sandusky
Lightning, how about constant lightning from 2 storm fronts that converged on the 2011 Chicago Mac race. Scariest 45 minutes of my life as I was on the helm of a 43 footer. 7 of our 10 crew went below. Not a night I will forget as the sky was lit up continually. Winds to 60 knots. It also the same storm that took 2 lives when a boat turned turtle with the sails down.
 
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May 17, 2014
831
Catalina 310 #307 Bluewater Bay, FL
For those who don't want to go to the links, see bulleted summary.

The following is quoted from the report, 2nd page paragraph 2:

"While regatta organizers are ultimately responsible for safety during events, event participants also have responsibility for the safety of their vessel and crew."

In the posts four years ago, I argued that the event organizers were responsible for safety, at the very least should have put out warning radio calls, and given the forecast, the track of the storm, and the forecast strength, canceled.

I was attacked rather strongly for my views regarding the event organizers with many saying the skippers were solely responsible. I note here the Coast Guard agrees with me that "the regatta organizers are ultimately respond for safety during events"

I also note that it appears some skippers were quite negligent.


• A storm was forecasted and participants did not sufficiently anticipated the conditions.
• Participants were too casual in their approach toward safety and responsibility.
• The start of the race was unnecessarily delayed. If started on time, the number of participants impacted by the storm would have been considerably less.
• A lack of accountability made it difficult to determine the number of boats and participants impacted by the storm.
• Both the USCG and event organizer had the authority to postpone or cancel the start to ensure safety and did not.
• Not wearing, or inability to access PFDs, was a contributing factor in this event.

Safety Recommendation Summary:
• US Sailing to amend rules to require PFDs to be worn at all times.
• US Sailing to amend rules to require handheld VHF radio in the cockpit.
• US Sailing to amend rules to require every boat to check-in prior to start with crew on deck, wearing PFDs, and displaying handheld VHF radio.
• US Sailing to amend rules to require every boat to submit finalized crew list prior to start of race.
• Additional recommendations were directed toward changes in the permitting of regattas by the USCG.