Cutting Genoa to a 135, is it a good idea?

[Whatfiero1]

Never be cost effective to cut a 9 yr old sail and probably no one will do it cat 30 been around 50 yrs with same sail dementions granted there is the tall rig just check measurements and order a used 130 from e-bay Bacon sails or sailing Texas anywhere. order a 110 while at it every sailboat needs a sail inventory

 

[sailme88]

I had the same question when I found my 150 was too big most of the time on Barnegat Bay. My sail was a lot more used, so the obvious answer was don't bother ... get a new sail. But the rest of the discussion was also interesting. I was told that cutting the sail down was not a simple matter of just trimming material at the leach to shorten the chord length. It couldn't be that simple, right? I was told that the bulk of the work was done at the luff. For that reason, it was expensive and no where near being an economically good decision, even on a sail in good condition. Converting from a 150 to a 135 would probably be an economic exercise where you would say, "gee, I should have just bought a new sail!" If you buy a new sail, then you'll have a good sail for light winds and a great sail for the normal times on Buzzard's Bay.

My point.....exactly !

 

[ontherocks83]

Follow up.....

So I brought the sail to my loft Thurston Sails in Bristol RI. for them to check out and see what they can do.

First I was incorrect about what size the sail is. It is currently a 140 not a 150. They said that if I didn't have a bowsprit then it would be a 150, but the additional length of the bowsprit changes it to a 140.

He said the sail is in almost new condition and that he can absolutely cut it down for about 1/3 the price of a new sail. That price also includes a new leech protector and he recommend taking off the old "sunbrella" uv fabric and replacing it with some new high speed lighter weight uv protector that has better sail shape. I don't remember what it was called, but that's what he runs on his boat so I told him to go for it.

Lastly the sail is going to be cut from a 140 to a 115. This seemed like a bit of a drastic change in sail size but my thoughts are that although I will lose some speed in lighter winds, once it gets up to 12-15+ and we're beating into the wind, the boat will be much easier to handle, tack, stand up straighter and be able to reef later. Also next year I will be getting a Cruising Asymmetrical which should compliment the smaller genoa very nicely for off wind/light wind work.

 

[sailme88]

So, going thru all this do you have adjustable Genoa cars? If not check Garhauer. Did both sides for $425.00.
All kinds of sail shape ability...

 

[ontherocks83]

So, going thru all this do you have adjustable Genoa cars? If not check Garhauer. Did both sides for $425.00.
All kinds of sail shape ability...

not while under load, I usually adjust the windward side after seeing how the tensioned leward side is behaving. Not the best option but it works for now.

 

[DrJudyB]

@ontherocks83
Is the sailmaker planning to recut the broad seams to relocate the max draft position? Where will the max draft be located after the recut?

cutting 22% of the luff will put the max depth of the draft very far forward. That sail might have a very odd flying shape unless the broad seams are recut. Cutting 22% off the leech would even weirder shape.

if the sail is in such good shape, it might be less expensive and more cost effective to sell the 140 and put the money towards a new sail that was designed right from scratch. That’s what I’d do, personally.

Judy B

 

[DrJudyB]

I have a Catalina 30 with a Tall rig, bow sprit, and fin keel. Currently I have a 150% Genoa.

I have been contemplating having the Genoa cut down to a 135 and am trying to get some input from everyone. Here is my thinking,

First, the 150 is a lot of sail to tack (read as, there is a lot of sheet to pull in on every tack and yes I might be getting a little lazy as I get older).

Second, this boat's sweet spot when close hauled seems to be around 12-15 knots apparent. After that, she gets a bit over powered. I typically put 1 reef in the main around 18 knots apparent and put the second reef in around 22 knots apparent. I have to furl in part of the genoa to help keep her balanced at those wind speeds and when we heave to, so we can reef I have to furl in part of the genoa or else she heels over quite a bit while hove to.

Third, at least as far as new Catalina's are concerned they are usually delivered with a 135 and not a 150. If there is a reason they scaled back the sail size, should I do the same?

Does anyone have any experience with the difference between the two head sails and/or what kind of performance changes might I expect to see if I do have it reduced / is the 150 overkill?

The Catalina 30 tall rig with bowsprit is a very different animal from the standard rig. The sail plan works differently on the two boats.

The tall rig fore triangle area is considerably bigger than the foretriangle on the standard rig. The mainsail size is roughly the same on both boats. The C30 tall rig requires a different selection of sails in each particular wind range. The tall rig sail plan has to be balanced differently than the standard one. Reefing the tall rig headsail vs mainsail is done in a different sequence of steps. Conventional wisdom that works for the standard is generally wrong when applied to the tall rig.

A tall rig’s 135 is roughly equivalent in area to a 150 on a standard rig.
A tall rig’s full-hoist 95% is roughly equivalent in area to a 110 on a standard rig.

I can’t remember exactly, but, IIRC, a TR 110% with a full hoist is roughly the same area as a standard rig 135% with full hoist, but the draft will be shallower and a therefore less powerful. I’d have to look at my records to be more precise.

where do you sail?
and what sea and wind conditions are typical 75% of the days you go sailing?

judy B

 

[ontherocks83]

So as some background, I grew up sailing on lake Winnipesaukee on a 30' Catalina with a standard rig and a 150 genoa. I always felt is was overpowered. Now we are sailing on Narragansett bay RI on a 30' Catalina with a tall rig and bow sprit. The current sail was/is a 140 (due to the bow sprit) and this past summer we saw consistent winds in the 15-25 knot range. Don't know if this is typical as this is our first year on the ocean/in this area.

Even over this past year anything over 14-15 knots we were getting knocked down to 18-20+ degrees of heel and would have to detune the main sail to stand her more upright and still were making 6-5 to 7 knots of headway. I was actually surprised at the boat speeds we were getting even when detuned.

The sail is going to be cut down to a 115 and according to the sail maker they are going to cut the leech to achieve the new sail size.

 

[DrJudyB]

The sail is going to be cut down to a 115 and according to the sail maker they are going to cut the leech to achieve the new sail size.

please post some pictures when it’s done. I’ll be very interested to see where the draft is after they cut the sail down

BEST PRACTICES TO PHOTOGRAPH A JIB
If the foredeck is large enough, lay on the deck next to the midfoot and look up at the sail. Line up the camera diagonally with the line between the tack and clew. A simple trick is to place one finger under the forward corner of the camera so that it’s aimed at the jib head. Initially experiment, and then check the photos to make sure you are getting the luff and leech at the lower draft line. It’s important that the tell tales stream back with no luffing for the jib photos. On a small boat, skip the viewing screen and hold the camera on the deck in the middle of the jib foot to take the picture. Review the photos as you go to ensure you have the correct angle and all three draft stripes are included.

 

[shemandr]

...and this past summer we saw consistent winds in the 15-25 knot range. Don't know if this is typical as this is our first year on the ocean/in this area...

That is in line with what I have experienced in that area. Apart from frontal systems the Sea Breeze is 15-18 knots and if it aligns with gradient wind higher.

 

[sailme88]

not while under load, I usually adjust the windward side after seeing how the tensioned leward side is behaving. Not the best option but it works for now.

My cars work under load.. Beating close to the wind and wanting to flatten, the cam is released. As the sheet is winched in, the cars come s back with it. Change in direction or reefing, the 4:1 blocks on the cars easily move it forward. Truly ideal for single handing and capturing the optimum sail shape...

 

[Scott T-Bird]

The sail is going to be cut down to a 115 and according to the sail maker they are going to cut the leech to achieve the new sail size.

I'd get a second opinion on that notion. I wouldn't know, but I've been told that merely trimming the leech is not the way it is properly done. Essentially, you might simply be ruining a good sail. Would you rather pay full price and have 2 good sails or pay 1/3 price and have 1 ruined sail?

 

[Meriachee]

anything over 14-15 knots we were getting knocked down to 18-20+ degrees of heel

This seems a little excessive.

 

[DrJudyB]

this past summer we saw consistent winds in the 15-25 knot range. Don't know if this is typical as this is our first year on the ocean/in this area.

15 to 25 kts wasn’t typical in the 1980s when I lived in That area. I windsurfed the area from Narragansett Bay, to Buzzards Bay to Cape Cod area for 10 years, in the 1980s. We were lucky to see 8-12 kts of wind during the summer in the afternoon when the thermally induced onshore breezed kicked in. Maybe 1 summer afternoon out of 10 was windy enough to produce whitecaps.

in sept or October, the winds got stronger and there were more storm fronts moving through.

The data on the following linkwebpage matches with my recollection pretty well:

Narragansett Pier Climate, Weather By Month, Average Temperature (Rhode Island, United States) - Weather Spark

In Narragansett Pier, the summers are warm and humid; the winters are very cold, snowy, and windy; and it is partly cloudy year round. Over the course of the year, the temperature typically varies from 24°F to 79°F and is rarely below 10°F or above 86°F.

weatherspark.com

 

[Meriachee]

It harkens back to the mindset that the boat isn't fast unless the rail is in the water. 14-15 shouldn't generate much more than a tad of heel if the trim is right.

 

[dmax]

My experience has been different - Naragansett Bay isn't that windy but Buzzards Bay, Vineyard Sound and Nantucket Sound have many days with 15-25 knots of wind in the afternoon. Been sailing there since the 70's. The following chart shows the average wind speed in Buzzards Bay - note this is just the average:

 

[DrJudyB]

I owned a 1977 Catalina 27 Tall rig for 15 years on windy San Francisco Bay, where the wind exceeds 20 kts most summer afternoon. I don’t think 18-20 degress of heel is a lot of heel, not even close to having a rail in the water. The designer for Catalina , Gerry Douglas, always said that 15 degrees was the optimal heel for the Catalinas (of that era).

15 degrees of is optimal, but gusts frequently heeled us a but further. That was easily corrected within seconds by steering and/or dropping the traveler. when strong gusts heeled us past 20 degrees, we were able to feather up well enough with only little pressure on the helm (just a two finger grip).

Judy B
Former 1977 Catalina 27 TR owner, 2003- 2016

Judy B's "Bijou" - A Catalina 27 Website

100% Refit of a Catalina 27 sailboat. Updated all rigging; mast rebuild; keel bolt replacement; fiberglass and gelcoat repair; bulkhead replacement; asymmetric spinnaker installation; marine inboard maintenance (Atomic 4); AwlGrip marine LPU paint; stanchion replacement; seacock replacement...

www.blumhorst.com

.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

15 to 25 kts wasn’t typical in the 1980s when I lived in That area. I windsurfed the area from Narragansett Bay, to Buzzards Bay to Cape Cod area for 10 years, in the 1980s. We were lucky to see 8-12 kts of wind during the summer in the afternoon when the thermally induced onshore breezed kicked in. Maybe 1 summer afternoon out of 10 was windy enough to produce whitecaps.

I would agree with you but I've seen a significant difference in the past several years. I windsurfed along the Jersey Shore, particularly Barnegat Bay for the entire decade of the 90's and never saw the consistent winds that we have seen in the past few. It seems that every single hot day, the winds kick into the 20's by mid afternoon. I've never seen so many days when sailing was really a lot of hard work because of the wind. One of our marina workers, whom has been there for many, many years, told me that the past few seasons they spend way more time walking the docks in the summer checking on lines because of the wind. He says virtually every day. I think there has been a real change. I can tell you one thing, if we had wind like this in the 90's, I would have been overjoyed and under-employed, probably. We used to write off July and August for lack of wind.

I don't know about Narragansett, but the Seller of our boat was on Buzzard's Bay and he told me that he eventually purchased a smaller headsail (130%) because his 150 was just no longer useful at all (it was probably blown out by then! ) I think the entire NE coast may be experiencing the same.

 

[ontherocks83]

Whether or not it is normal I don't know, this past year we saw 15-25 knots of wind regularly. From what I experienced when beating into the wind 14-15 knots apparent was the sweet spot where you would get decent heeling and great speeds. Once we broke 18 knots I would have to either detune the Main sail or put in one reef and we would still be regularly doing over 7 knots boat speed.

When we tried to heave to (so we could reef) in anything over 18 knots we would first have to roll up 1/3+ of the genoa or else we would be uncomfortably heeled over while hove to.

From what I understand the sail loft is cutting the leech because he said that he'd have to move the UV cover but I don't know if there are other adjustments he is making also.

 

[ontherocks83]

This seems a little excessive.

If you look back at my post I said anything over 14-15 knots. 15 was about the sweet spot, 18 and I have to put in a reef or detune the main. Sorry maybe I should have been more specific between 15 knots and 18 knots of wind.