Cutting Genoa to a 135, is it a good idea?

[ontherocks83]

I have a Catalina 30 with a Tall rig, bow sprit, and fin keel. Currently I have a 150% Genoa.

I have been contemplating having the Genoa cut down to a 135 and am trying to get some input from everyone. Here is my thinking,

First, the 150 is a lot of sail to tack (read as, there is a lot of sheet to pull in on every tack and yes I might be getting a little lazy as I get older).

Second, this boat's sweet spot when close hauled seems to be around 12-15 knots apparent. After that, she gets a bit over powered. I typically put 1 reef in the main around 18 knots apparent and put the second reef in around 22 knots apparent. I have to furl in part of the genoa to help keep her balanced at those wind speeds and when we heave to, so we can reef I have to furl in part of the genoa or else she heels over quite a bit while hove to.

Third, at least as far as new Catalina's are concerned they are usually delivered with a 135 and not a 150. If there is a reason they scaled back the sail size, should I do the same?

Does anyone have any experience with the difference between the two head sails and/or what kind of performance changes might I expect to see if I do have it reduced / is the 150 overkill?

 

[kappykaplan]

I haven't flown my 150 in years - too overpowered even with two reefs in the main. My other headsail is a 110 and is plenty for all of my solo sails.

 

[PaulK]

Talk to your sailmaker about whether the sail would work as a 135. It may be too old and blown out to be worth the effort and cost. Perhaps the way the sail is built makes cutting it down impossible. Perhaps there's also a used 135 available for about the same price - then you'd have a sail you could use on those drifter days as well as when it picks up some. New boats being sold with smaller jibs is more about the conditions where they're sailing than anything else. Or perhaps people in low-wind locations (where you need a 150% jib) don't buy new C30's because they're too slow in light air.

 

[dlochner]

We moved from a 150 to a 135%. Much easier sail to handle. Because it was a smaller sail we used a triradial cut rather than the traditional cross cut Dacron. The performance across the board with the new sail is superior to the old 150 and we reef later.

Check with the sail maker about cutting the sail, if the sail is really old it may be better to just buy a new sail.

 

[ontherocks83]

Thanks all for the reply's so far. The sail is technically 8 or 9 years old, but the boat sat for 7 years on the hard and the sail was only used for a year or two before being put away. I had them cleaned, inspected/repaired, and stored at my sailmaker last winter and they said they are in really good shape. I will shoot them a call about the feasibility about having it cut, but either way if there is enough evidence about having a reduced sail size, I would end up purchasing a 135.

My biggest question, which you have already chimed in on is, is a 150 overpowered for this boat and how much performance change will I experience on either end (heavy wind vs light wind).

I know every decision on a boat is a compromise, I'm just trying to see if there is a "better" compromise than what I currently have.

 

[dlochner]

My biggest question, which you have already chimed in on is, is a 150 overpowered for this boat and how much performance change will I experience on either end (heavy wind vs light wind).

With a standard crosscut sail a 135 will be slower in light air, say under 6 knots. By the time the wind gets up around 10 knots there will be little difference and above 15 the 135 will be faster because the boat will be sailing flat. The 150 will also provide more power to punch through chop.

If you typically sail in really light air, the 135 may be too small. However in 10-12 knots there will be little difference unless you are racing.

 

[ontherocks83]

With a standard crosscut sail a 135 will be slower in light air, say under 6 knots. By the time the wind gets up around 10 knots there will be little difference and above 15 the 135 will be faster because the boat will be sailing flat. The 150 will also provide more power to punch through chop.

If you typically sail in really light air, the 135 may be too small. However in 10-12 knots there will be little difference unless you are racing.

Thank you for the info.

As an aside to this I was also planning on getting a "light wind/down wind" sail such as a gennaker (as an example), I know that I can't point with a gennaker or code 0 or whatever other type of sail like I can with a proper genoa/jib, but it would compliment the 135 in lighter winds. I have lots of questions about which light wind sail but I am going to start a new thread on that in a minute as not to stray this thread too far off course.

This year was my first year on the ocean, (I spent 25 years on a different Catalina 30 on Lake Winnipesuakee) so I don't know what the typical winds are like. All I can say is this year "most" of the time we went out we saw between 15-25 knot winds and were frequently reefing and reducing the size of the head sail.

 

[shemandr]

As for cutting down a 150 to make it a 135 it seems to me a bit like trying to turn a horse into a donkey.
Regarding the question if you would lose much performance, you should remember a large part of the upwind drive for the 150 occurs in the first 1/3 of the sail. After that it's mostly trying to not induce drag. You'll lose downwind but the smaller sail will be more stabile wing on wing - especially with a pole.
For my Ranger 29 my favorite sail was the 110 for the 15 -18 kt sea breeze.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Really, it nearly all depends on what you are doing; where going, etc. But I’d say no. My two cruising boats have been equipped, collectively, with 155% and 110%—P30, and 135% and 120%— Bavaria 38. All but the 110% had foam luffs for reefing. The 110% could be roller furled, but not reefed, it lacking the foam luff.

I kept the 155% on all the time with the Pearson 30 in Florida, where there is a lot of light air much of the time. The Pearson was a very well balanced yacht. Narrow beam. With the 155% up in much blow the boat would just heal a degree or two more, and accelerate. I roller-reefed the Genoa as necessary, of course, but the mainsail stayed up most of the time. I had two types of reefs for the mainsail. A flat-reef and a slab/jiffy-reef. I used the easy-to-apply flat reef often if I needed to shorten sail more after rolling in some Genny. So, for me, the 155% was generally not problematic in wind, and paid off very well in light air, particularly DDW, poled-out, Wing-n-Wing. Moving the Pearson to CA, after a season or two here, I started putting on the 110% headsail in winter just for day-sailing. But I also bought a NEW 155% from Ulman for summer sailing. In a fresh breeze, I could sail the boat with the 110% w/o reefing the mainsail, most of the time, etc. A good size as others above have noted.

Then came the Bavaria with its 135% Genoa. I dunno. Never a great sail in the light airs of Southern CA. For beer-cans I eventually got a used 155% that I’d slap on in the really light air for some races. A full hoist, tacked to the deck, I could not roller furl it at all. A PIA.

The best way to balance the boat (fractional rig) with the 135% in wind over 20 was to reef the mainsail first. But, this was much more trouble than just rolling in some headsail, so that’s what we usually did. Of course, a roller furled headsail wrecks the boat’s performance, etc. I had a lot of “issues“ with the 135% and got NO light air benefit from it. A strange size. I would NOT recommend one.

When I moved the boat to Ventura, northern Channel Islands, I took off the 135% and put on a new 120% furling Genoa. Now, this combination made a lot of sense there. I could easily keep the headsail full out, mainsail full up in 20+ kt, to weather, and of course off as well. There’s more wind more often up there, so I did not have to suffer much light air frustration. I did not race there. I recently added a new whisker pole to use with the 120% so the DDW is much better. Finally, with this boat, when I wanted to get there in light airs, etc. there’s the 39-hp Iron Genny to call upon.

IMHO, you probably won’t be happy with 135% if you sail much in light airs. My 135% has not been back on the Bavaria since I took it off in 2014. I sold it a couple of years ago so it’s gone for good.

Learn to tame your 150% and the yacht in temporary strong wind; maybe have it flattened some, and the draft moved forward if it’s bagging. This would be better, IMHO, than cutting it down. And if adding a new sail to your inventory, I suggest putting on a 120% furling Genoa with foam luff if you will be sailing regularly in wind 15 kt & higher. It’s the right solution. Get a whisker pole if there is much DDW sailing to do.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Third, at least as far as new Catalina's are concerned they are usually delivered with a 135 and not a 150. If there is a reason they scaled back the sail size, should I do the same?

Keep cost down, likely.

 

[dmax]

"This year was my first year on the ocean, (I spent 25 years on a different Catalina 30 on Lake Winnipesuakee) so I don't know what the typical winds are like."
The 15-25 knots of wind you experienced are pretty typical for a sunny day in this area - SW wind that builds in the late morning and really gets going in the afternoon. I had a Catalina 30 with a 135 genoa, always though it should be a little smaller. I currentlyt have a 110 and like it a lot.

 

[sailme88]

The PO probably sailed mostly by the head, so the over powering was less of an issue.. Balance is s different story.. Guess the first place to start is with a sail loft. Find one that will give you a good honest opinion.. Sail age will add a lot to the discussion. There is more to cutting away 15% of your sail in order to maintain the proper shape. You. may find it a lot less money to go to Catalina Direct and get a completely new 135.
Or get a price from that sail loft..

 

[Meriachee]

The 155 on the c270 is a little unbalanced on the boat, but faster than the 135, which, when sheeted to the upper track, can be so balanced that the rudder can be simply let go and itll stay put.
tradeoffs....,

 

[Stu Jackson]

A very illuminating and interesting discussion on co.com for those of you who might be in the market for a new jib.

Big Jib or Small Jib

Please read all three pages. Enjoy.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

I had the same question when I found my 150 was too big most of the time on Barnegat Bay. My sail was a lot more used, so the obvious answer was don't bother ... get a new sail. But the rest of the discussion was also interesting. I was told that cutting the sail down was not a simple matter of just trimming material at the leach to shorten the chord length. It couldn't be that simple, right? I was told that the bulk of the work was done at the luff. For that reason, it was expensive and no where near being an economically good decision, even on a sail in good condition. Converting from a 150 to a 135 would probably be an economic exercise where you would say, "gee, I should have just bought a new sail!" If you buy a new sail, then you'll have a good sail for light winds and a great sail for the normal times on Buzzard's Bay.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

I had two types of reefs for the mainsail. A flat-reef and a slab/jiffy-reef. I used the easy-to-apply flat reef often if I needed to shorten sail more after rolling in some Genny.

What is the difference? I'm not familiar with a difference between the 2.

 

[thinwater]

A flattening reef is a tack cringle just a little ways up, about level with the cuningham hole. It is used to take out the shelf on bolt rope mains. A loose foot main is merely outhauled hard.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Mine was different. The flat reef was applied at the outboard end of the boom. The sail remains full hoist at the luff. The boom end is raised several centimeters to “flatten” (gather) sail to a leach cringle against it. When finished, it looks a little weird. The mainsail is still at full hoist, but the boom is no longer “level.” However, “removes” several square feet of sail from the main. There’s a fitting on the boom, and a tool, to do it, etc. It works. Very fast; completed in the cockpit

 

[shemandr]

There was a flattening reef on an Olson 40 I sailed on. That was at least 30 years ago. I was surprised how effective it was. It made that main as flat Armadillo on a Texas highway. I haven't seen one since.

 

[FastOlson]

Might be good to re-read reply 15, again. Good advice.
Once upon a time I was a rep for a sailmaker, and recall that it's really not economical to "cut down" a sail. Far far better to have a new one built. You will be flying that smaller-overlap sail in heavier air than the old 150, also.

Matter of fact we changed from a 135, that took some effort to tack, to a (furling) full hoist 97 with three vertical battens. That was about 8 years ago. Great choice, but admittedly our hull is very easily driven.

"Everything in life is a compromise" and while we sail OK in winds under 7 or 8, above that the boat really comes to life. At 24 true, with that jib and a reef in the main we can hold onto 7 kt to weather, pointing high. Huge Fun!

Apropos of whatever, sometimes a clean & scrubbed bottom and a feathering prop is worth another 30% of overlap on a genoa.......