Can you ever have too much draft?

Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
For years in this forum, I've been ridiculed and slammed for arguing that playing the main sheet works best for handling gusts in heavy air. This article says that the traveler is fine for fine tuning and in moderate conditions, but the most effective method for gross sail shape adjustments, necessary in heavy air conditions, is done by working the main sheet.

I've discussed how I find that I can maintain the traveler quite high by easing the mainsheet in heavy gusts. When I'm single-handing, one hand on the wheel and one hand on the mainsheet works very well for maintaining optimum speed and keeping the boat working upwind.

So this article seems to vindicate everything I've written in the past. Everything said in this article relates to what I have been finding by experience, contrary to the arguments which have been beat into my head on this forum. Is this the time I get to say "I told you so"?!?!?! Going back to what works for me ....
Scott, glad that helped. ;^)

At the end of the day, ALL the major mainsail controls (sheet, traveler, outhaul) do is position the clew in 3-dimensional space.

In strong breeze, bringing the traveler up above center allows the SHEET to be eased and still allow the BOOM to end up near the centerline of the boat. Thats the key point.

Here the bottom 2/3s of the sail create lift and drive. The top 1/3 twists off and does nothing.

Is this most efficient? No. BUT THAT'S THE POINT. WE HAVE TOO MUCH POWER! The key is making the boat go fast and stay flat. Create optimal twist to spill excess pressure without creating killer drag. This what this configuration does. And its why its fast.
 

Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
8,007
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
Did you not read RichH's wall of (very informative) text?
It's a little dense. Of course, I'm only a San Diego State graduate....

The Quantum Sails article is a little more user friendly.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,085
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
I always read Rich's posts ...

Did you not read RichH's wall of (very informative) text?
In fact I look forward to them. I have a great amount of respect for the info Rich posts. I think that sail trim is a pretty complex dynamic and I also think there are no "one size fits all" actions. Where is the boundary between "moderate conditions" and "heavy air / gusting" conditions? I'm not exactly sure and I'm sure it varies from boat to boat, crew to crew and by locational considerations. How do you determine the tactics that you are going to use? Instinct and gut feeling? Gauges and scientific input? Awareness of the weather by signs on the water and in the air? Everything comes into play and we all adjust our tactics in a variety of ways. That's why racing is interesting.

So, I don't necessarily find the info that is presented on both sides of the coin contradictory. :)
 

weinie

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Sep 6, 2010
1,297
Jeanneau 349 port washington, ny
In fact I look forward to them. I have a great amount of respect for the info Rich posts. I think that sail trim is a pretty complex dynamic and I also think there are no "one size fits all" actions. Where is the boundary between "moderate conditions" and "heavy air / gusting" conditions? I'm not exactly sure and I'm sure it varies from boat to boat, crew to crew and by locational considerations. How do you determine the tactics that you are going to use? Instinct and gut feeling? Gauges and scientific input? Awareness of the weather by signs on the water and in the air? Everything comes into play and we all adjust our tactics in a variety of ways. That's why racing is interesting.

So, I don't necessarily find the info that is presented on both sides of the coin contradictory. :)
I'm no expert here, though I've been doing a fair amount of mainsheet trimming on a competitive j105 in the last couple of years. But in general, if the wind is strong enough that all tell tales are flying, including the topmost, there is no need to concern oneself with twist. Just maximize boat speed by dropping the traveler and footing off in the gusts and raising it higher and pointing high in the lulls. Keep the boat on its feet and keep and eye on the knot meter as you make adjustments. Backstay, downhaul, halyard, outhaul, and vang, and mainsheet are tight. Jib cars are aft and the sails are flat.

My new boat has no traveler, so its vang sheeting all the way and I HAVE to play the mainsheet. In winds over 15knts, I crank the vang on and play the main. I have no back stay or downhaul but I the outhaul and halyard are maxed. I can easily keep her flying along without dunking the rails at up 20knots before I would opt to reef.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
In fact I look forward to them. I have a great amount of respect for the info Rich posts. I think that sail trim is a pretty complex dynamic and I also think there are no "one size fits all" actions. Where is the boundary between "moderate conditions" and "heavy air / gusting" conditions? I'm not exactly sure and I'm sure it varies from boat to boat, crew to crew and by locational considerations. How do you determine the tactics that you are going to use? Instinct and gut feeling? Gauges and scientific input? Awareness of the weather by signs on the water and in the air? Everything comes into play and we all adjust our tactics in a variety of ways. That's why racing is interesting.

So, I don't necessarily find the info that is presented on both sides of the coin contradictory. :)
Indeed.

Much of the detail (and images!) that Rich posted come from the seminal work that Arvel Gentry did on sail flow theory. As such, it describes sails in an optimal, theoretical, powered up condition.

The trick is that when you get PAST optimal pressure, which is usually around 14 knots true on modern monohulls, JOB ONE (like the Doyle doc suggests) is dealing with the excess pressure and keeping the boat flat. This often means having the sails in a shape that does not take advantage of all the available pressure, but the is exactly the point.

The technique of bringing the traveler up and easing the sheet is one very good way of doing this. This puts the boom near the centerline, and the bottom 2/3rds of the sail is correctly positioned (and sized!) for optimal sailing under the conditions. The top 1/3 is twisted off and generates no lift (or drag!). In many ways it is like a reef you can easily shake out.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,085
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
What about draft?

Scott, glad that helped. ;^)

In strong breeze, bringing the traveler up above center allows the SHEET to be eased and still allow the BOOM to end up near the centerline of the boat. Thats the key point.

Here the bottom 2/3s of the sail create lift and drive. The top 1/3 twists off and does nothing.

Is this most efficient? No. BUT THAT'S THE POINT. WE HAVE TOO MUCH POWER! The key is making the boat go fast and stay flat. Create optimal twist to spill excess pressure without creating killer drag. This what this configuration does. And its why its fast.
So the argument I have always heard is that twisting off like that INCREASES power, which is exactly what you don't want. I never bought that argument because it doesn't make any sense ... until it was explained that it is actually draft which is the problem. It seems that any reduction in power that is accomplished by spilling the top third via twist is more than offset by the increased power due to draft depth in the lower 2/3 when the boom rises.

Nevertheless, I always try to optimize twist via the traveler and mainsheet settings and I also find that easing the mainsheet depowers the mainsail in heavy gusts by twisting the upper third of the sail. I've never seen it NOT work effectively.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,085
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Exactly ...

How is the draft increasing when the boom rises?
So where does the argument (that easing the mainsheet in gusts actually increases power) come from?

Also, if it's not draft, what do you call the belly in the lower 2/3 of the main sail that occurs as the boom lifts (recognizing that draft depth is more commonly associated with the outhaul)?
 

weinie

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Sep 6, 2010
1,297
Jeanneau 349 port washington, ny
I'm not aware of the argument that easing the mainsheet gives you an increase in power. Obviously, easing the main increases the AOA at all heights of the sail and even more at the top as it twists off.

There should not be a "belly" as the boom lifts in a breeze. The "excess" sail material is what allows the top to twist off.

ETA: again, I'm no expert as my older posts attest to and I gladly welcome any criticism to my posts.
 

weinie

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Sep 6, 2010
1,297
Jeanneau 349 port washington, ny
Also, that "draft depth" if it existed would be along the forward/aft direction rather than the up/down direction normally associated with sail camber.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,085
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
weinie, I'm with you ...

But for years it has been beaten into my head on this forum ... in gusty conditions, dump the TRAVELER, NEVER touch the mainsheet. Some have said that they would cut the hands off of anybody reaching for the mainsheet. ;) I've been in this forum for years (but could it have been in an alternate universe?).

The argument goes that easing the mainsheet increases power and heeling, exactly what you don't want in a gust.

Is the tune changing? ;)
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,780
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
But for years it has been beaten into my head on this forum ... in gusty conditions, dump the TRAVELER, NEVER touch the mainsheet. Some have said that they would cut the hands off of anybody reaching for the mainsheet. ;) I've been in this forum for years (but could it have been in an alternate universe?).

The argument goes that easing the mainsheet increases power and heeling, exactly what you don't want in a gust.

Is the tune changing? ;)
Scott & I have had this discussion many times, and he finally convinced me about six months to a year ago.

My contention, which had nothing to do with sail shape or power, is that on your cabintop traveler and mainsheet winch, it's easier to dump and pull up the traveler than it is to release and have to re-crank in the mainsheet.

His point is that he has aft boom sheeting, so he's right, much easier to use the mainsheet and better for dumping air up high without affecting AOA.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,085
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Always happy for the discussion ...

Scott & I have had this discussion many times, and he finally convinced me about six months to a year ago.

My contention, which had nothing to do with sail shape or power, is that on your cabintop traveler and mainsheet winch, it's easier to dump and pull up the traveler than it is to release and have to re-crank in the mainsheet.

His point is that he has aft boom sheeting, so he's right, much easier to use the mainsheet and better for dumping air up high without affecting AOA.
I'm still learning for sure. I also find that sometimes a misunderstanding can often be cleared up by going about the discussion in different ways. I often have a little twinkle of understanding long after an earlier discussion, when we're talking about a subject in a different context.

Whether to blade or twist has to be determined in context with the conditions and crew. The factors favoring either method can be overlapping even during the events of the day's sailing and/or on the race course.

I typically see 20+ knots of wind only during gusts on a day I would describe as "heavy air / gusting". Stu sees 20+ knots as the "same old - same old" on SF Bay! I'd guess he would say that's "moderate". :D
 

weinie

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Sep 6, 2010
1,297
Jeanneau 349 port washington, ny
First, I'm not sure how anyone could look at RichH's vector diagram and not conclude that increasing the AOA in heavier winds is not the more effective method as it INCREASES forward thrust AS it reduces healing. While dumping the main by twisting off the leach may reduce heeling, it's not going to ADD to the forward thrust as the diagram proves.

Secondly, when racing, getting the sails dialed in can sometimes take a lot of effort depending on conditions. Often, you can sense something is wrong with the look of the sail and in other cases the boat just doesn't "feel" right. But once the boat is "in the groove" you can actually see it in the shape of the sail and in the way the telltales stream (especially if you have woolys on the windward side of the main as well as the leech). The skipper can feel it and even the guys hanging over the rail can feel it. You can even hear as the water makes just the right sound passing over the hull. The J105 we race on even has a fine tuning adjustment on the mainsheet to get everything dialed in just right. And best of all, you can see it on the knot meter and in one-design racing, you can see your boat closing in on identical boats ahead and leaving others further behind.

Let's say the wind is about 12 knots and you've got the twist set just right, all the telltales are streaming, the boat is "dialed in" and your speed is right where it should be based on the polar diagrams and your prior experience. Now say a prolonged gust hits and the boat heels over. You dump the main sheet and all is well. But now the gust passes and you need to get the boat back the way it was before the gust hit. Where exactly was the mainsheet positioned? There's no way to tell. You have to look at the telltales and figure it out all over again. Furthermore, if you had your mainsheet on a winch on the coach roof, you would've had to take too much time to remove a turn of line off the winch to ease the sheet, then put it back on, find the winch handle, crank it in and still try to determine how the sail was set initially. Contrast that to simply lifting the traveler back to its initial, easily observable position. No need to look at the telltales or even the sails at all to know everything is back where it should be.

Also, when racing, the skipper is never steering a precise angle off the wind consistently. For instance, he may be pinching up to make a mark or bearing away to duck another boat. If you are busy trying to "re-set" the mainsheet after you have dumped it in a gust, you will never set it exactly where it should be as the angle to the wind will have changed with the new heading. However, if all you have to do is bring the traveler up to its original position, the skipper can simply steer the boat where he needs to go knowing that the sail is trimmed properly for close hauled sailing. He can then sail to the telltales, pinch up, foot off and in general, be where ever he needs to be, confident the sail is trimmed properly. The speed of the boat will reflect where he is in relation to the wind and not in relation to the trim of the sails.

One last thing to add: On the J105, hauling in that mainsheet in breezy conditions so that the boom is center is HARD! Even with all the mechanical advantage of the multi-block and line arrangement. The traveler is simply easier to adjust!
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,085
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
All very logical and correct, weinie ...

But ... you seem to ignore that easing the main also increases the AOA just as easing the traveler.

Your scenario is based on "moderate" conditions where blading the main is more effective. Not a problem.

I can understand where easing the mainsheet which is wrapped around a winch is more problematic. When I ease my mainsheet, it is just as easy to return it to the same position (without evaluating telltales) as it is to return the traveler. I just take in the same amount as I let out (I don't use a winch), as can easily be seen by the boom position.

Besides that, I suppose that you may rarely be returning the sail to the same condition after the puff disappears. Too many dynamics have changed in that time span. Perhaps the wind is a different speed or direction ... perhaps the driver adjusted course. Adjustments are constant ... I would guess that evaluating the tell tales is a constant activity, also.

Blading or twisting ... just another variable in the stable of options, no?
 

weinie

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Sep 6, 2010
1,297
Jeanneau 349 port washington, ny
But ... you seem to ignore that easing the main also increases the AOA just as easing the traveler.
It does. But assume the AOA of the middle and bottom parts of the sail are increased using either method equally resulting in reduced heel while simultaneously increasing the forward thrust vector. By dumping the sheet however, you have now, in addition, twisted off the top making that part of the sail completely ineffective and not working at all to drive the boat.
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
So if you use the traveler you just change the AOA and if you use the sheet you change the AOA and the twist and the chamber. The sheet would seem to be dong things that are contrary to each other, ie more chamber (power up) and less AA (power down) and more twist up high (power down). Id think that using the sheet would also effect the head sail and gap in unpredictable ways while using the traveler would effect it in at least a predictable fashion. Not that any of that matters much as long as the whole sail gets powered down.
For me (6:1 sheet and 4:1 traveler) is is just faster to use the traveler, that is to say you handle less line.
 

weinie

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Sep 6, 2010
1,297
Jeanneau 349 port washington, ny
Bill,

First of all, easing the mainsheet does NOT increase c(h)amber and power up the sails!!!

Secondly, it does TWO things... it twists off the top and increases the AOA of the sail as a whole. Since the wind gradient is relatively constant at higher wind speeds, changing the twist is not necessary. So why change two variables when only changing one is required?

Especially if it requires greater effort and attention to restore back.
 

weinie

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Sep 6, 2010
1,297
Jeanneau 349 port washington, ny
Scott,

If working the mainsheet is faster for you, I would imagine you could just keep the vang cranked on and you are accomplishing same thing as the boom will not rise. Then, with this vang sheeting you are only adjusting the AOA, similar to dropping the traveler.