Can you ever have too much draft?

Sep 20, 2014
1,320
Rob Legg RL24 Chain O'Lakes
So even on the 20+ kt day you recently experienced, the boom was still weighting down the sail? Sorry... just not getting your point then... if you have sail trim questions it means there's something you don't understand... so you shouldn't counter perfectly good advice with platitudes that you don't really need a vang because the boom's too heavy. Then you said you used a bungy to allow the boom to react to puffs. What's the deal?
A boom vang holds the boom down, correct? The boom seems heavy and the sheet attachment point is aft of the clew. This would mean the sheet has a lot of leverage doing the same thing the vang would do - pulling down on the sail.

Bunji on the TRAVELER, not the main sheet. The traveler is allowed to slide leeward as the wind picks up. The main sheet tension stays the same. I should also clarify, that was last year, before I started tweaking. It has nothing to do with my current issues.
 
Sep 20, 2014
1,320
Rob Legg RL24 Chain O'Lakes
With all due respect, I agree with Joe ... some of your comments are a little off the wall with respect to not needing a vang because the boom is too heavy or using a bungy for traveler control. I also wondered what you meant by the "attachment point" being aft of the clew and the leverage issue. Do you mean that the main sheet is end-boom sheeting? Yes, that does increase leverage, but it has nothing to do with vang control or preventing the boom from lifting. The boom lifts and swings out as a function of how much the mainsheet (and the vang) is let out.
I'm making an assumption that the function of the main sheet will affected by traveler position. If the traveler is directly below the boom, there is a significant amount of leverage straight down, which becomes redundant to the vang, as the vang also pulls down. If the traveler is windward, the sheet is longer and has less downward force compared to holding the boom near the center of the boat. To me, this position would allow the boom to swing upward as the wind increases, which in theory should allow the leach to twist off. My observation is that there is so much leach tension, that it never really seems to twist. All the load of the boom is on the leach, which seems to prevent it the boom from lifting.
I should clarify, I'm focusing about some of the issues I'm having and stuff tends to run together. As I try remember what happened when, I'm not sure but what I may have had everything tight on the heavy wind day, just trying to depower. Sorry about my confusion. So the boom would not have lifted if everything was tight.

Leeward helm. This was only slight, but since the boat previously has not had this problem, I assume the power from the main was very weak. If anything, the rake aft of the mast is slightly more as a result of tightening and adding prebend.

Over all, it seems like my previous assumption of having too much draft last year may have not been correct, as this year, with less draft, the main is less powerful, and I've lost speed. The boat is designed for a large main and tiny jib, so most of the power is in the main.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,085
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Well ...

I'm making an assumption that the function of the main sheet will [be] affected by traveler position. If the traveler is directly below the boom, there is a significant amount of leverage straight down, which becomes redundant to the vang, as the vang also pulls down. If the traveler is windward, the sheet is longer and has less downward force compared to holding the boom near the center of the boat. To me, this position would allow the boom to swing upward as the wind increases, which in theory should allow the leach to twist off [if the vang is eased, also].
this is exactly correct, except that the apparent leech tension should not be inhibiting twist if your mainsheet and vang are eased. The weight of the boom is not what is causing the leech to be tensioned. It's a hollow aluminum spar ... it's light ... in a good breeze, with the vang and mainsheet eased, your boom will lift. It takes a practiced eye to see it, particularly when the boat is on it's ear. But you should find it noticeable. The issue with your leech seems (to me) to be a matter concerning the condition or cut of your sail.

Regarding draft, it's not just the mast bend that affects draft. Draft (depth and position) is affected by the mainsheet, vang, outhaul, Cunningham, AND halyard tension, as well as backstay tension and mast pre-set. All of the controls, utilized correctly, should enable you to adjust draft depth and draft position pretty much as you please.

The traveler is basically the only control that doesn't adjust draft, except that you will position it to control twist with the mainsheet. (The bungy thing is a bit odd, but I see that you are using it as a sort of automatic buffer for gusty conditions - odd but somewhat ingenius, too :D)

You seem to be finding that no matter how you adjust controls, you are not able to shape the sail as you want it and the leech seems to be a perpetual problem. Wondering if draft depth is causing you to increase or decrease performance is pretty much off the mark if your aren't able to shape the sail as you want it. I think we all believe you should focus on the condition of your sail ... does it fit your rig? ... is it blown out?
 
Sep 20, 2014
1,320
Rob Legg RL24 Chain O'Lakes
I suppose I should call it a cruising bungy :)

Hey I got an easy question. For tell tails, which is better, ribbon or yarn?
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,780
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
I've had both. Yarn tends to get caught on the stitching or even the sail fabric. Slippery is good. :)

Like Higg's use of cassette tape as shroud telltales!
 
Sep 20, 2014
1,320
Rob Legg RL24 Chain O'Lakes
Yes, I've used cassette tape for years on the stays. But not sure how I would attach it to the sail. I still have a couple of inches thick real of cassette tape some place. I used to work in a cassette duplication house. (cassettes were duplicated open real and then wound into the shell) While it works very well on the stays, it does not survive transport of a trailer sailor. Right now I'm using a section of plastic grocery bag. It seems to hold up better.

But anyway thanks, I'll go buy some ribbon for the sails.
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,780
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
...........
But anyway thanks, I'll go buy some ribbon for the sails.

Wait! :) Perhaps you can re-read reply #15 on page 1 of this topic. Joe provided a picture of telltale options.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
On headsails, use PURE WOOL yarn. When wet or damp flat cassette tape and nylon strips will stick to the sail and not fly. But it has to be pure wool. Any acrylic in it and it gets wet and it sticks too.

Nylon strips are perfect for mainsail leach tales.
 

Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
8,007
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
When the boom is extended outside the range of the traveler track, the mainsheet takes over the traveler's angle of attack function, while the vang replaces the mainsheet's function to control leech tension (twist)... pretty basic stuff that will be part of any elementary sail trim manual.

Some sailors prefer to use the vang exclusively as primary leech tension control ... even when the boom is centered... it's called "vang sheeting".. I do not personally use vang sheeting that often. I prefer my the mainsheet/traveler combo for upwind work.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,085
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Nice!

When the boom is extended outside the range of the traveler track, the mainsheet takes over the traveler's angle of attack function, while the vang replaces the mainsheet's function to control leech tension (twist)... pretty basic stuff that will be part of any elementary sail trim manual.

Some sailors prefer to use the vang exclusively as primary leech tension control ... even when the boom is centered... it's called "vang sheeting".. I do not personally use vang sheeting that often. I prefer my the mainsheet/traveler combo for upwind work.
More succinctly said than I've read anywhere.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
On both our First 260 and First 36.7 'blading out' simply makes the entire mainsail luff and shake. It certainly depowers it as flow detaches down the entire length. Reefing of course is an option, but now you have NO way to deal with the lulls.

So traveler up, and adjust the sheet until the boat flattens and stays on its VMG speed and heel. No need to watch the tell tails. Its all about boat speed and heel angle now. And we TORCH anyone around us not doing the same.
With all due respect, thats totally and entirely inane and just simply WRONG.
Controlled blading-out on a mainsail by the controlled and partial release of AOA either by steering up or by partial traveller release so that ONLY the first few % of air stream 'separates' from the leeside at the luff / and leech. The classic elemental explanation would be a partial/slight 'fishermans reef' caused by traveller easing .... .
In the real world, this is the most common depowering method in one-design and match racing for the control of momentary episodes of being overpowered ... and chiefly to prevent/lessen skids to leeward that affect VMG while gaining boatspeed which keeps VMG at an optimum, all due to the slightly eased traveller. In high wind venues its also known as 'turbo-sailing' using the boats momentum while bladed (principally by steering up a few degrees) to head-up, followed by partial release of the traveller to come down during the gusts .... a trigonometric advantage.
It is done principally because it is totally controlled and with MOST of the wind still attached to the sails and in ALL panels.
In high wind venues its called 'control dumping/easing the traveller' ... whose affect is to reduce heel but not lose VMG / speed due to the trigonometry affecting the suction peaks in the forward part of the sail acting in a more 'forward' angle (of attack). Such sails used during these overpowering conditions usually are chosen which have a VERY flat luff entry (on keel boats), and on planing hull forms quite rounded luff entry shapes to accommodate the increase in boatspeed during turbo-sailing.

With an errantly twisted-off sail, the drag on the sail due to the luffing, especially across the head and the now over-trimmed foot section momentarily reduces speed and especially VMG. When top-level racing, twisting off is just mathematically wrong, as turbo sailing and partial traveller dumping is sooooo more efficient to control consistent wind attachment to the sails ....as with 'playing the traveller results in VMG staying high. With a twisted-off sail, and with the traveller on centerline, the foot sections of the mainsail are usually well 'over trimmed' ... there isnt any other possibility.

The first pic is the effect of partial blading with a traveller ... look at the force vectors in the more open AOA (essentially the same force vector advantage between a beating and approaching, at a theroetical maximum, a beam reach ...
The second pic is a graphical explanation of 'turbo sailing' (while beating) ..... 'UP' in the slows and "DOWN" in the blows ('traveller slightly eased to reduce heel and little loss of boatspeed while pressing down on the windward side tell tales.)



The following is graphical reference of exactly where the optimized suction peaks occur in a sail, then consider where the suction peaks occur in a twisted off sail occurs ... ie. ONLY in the forward sections of the mid-panels. In such comparisons, clearly the partly bladed out sail and slightly headedup boat will be the better performer in over-powering conditions simply because the bladed out sail reduces HEEL (and skid) without significant loss of 'drive'.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
When the boom is extended outside the range of the traveler track, the mainsheet takes over the traveler's angle of attack function, while the vang replaces the mainsheet's function to control leech tension (twist)... pretty basic stuff that will be part of any elementary sail trim manual.

Some sailors prefer to use the vang exclusively as primary leech tension control ... even when the boom is centered... it's called "vang sheeting".. I do not personally use vang sheeting that often. I prefer my the mainsheet/traveler combo for upwind work.
VANG sheeting!!!!! ..... very fast, little twist increase. A further benefit of vang sheeting is it "Frees up" the mainsheet so that one can gain precise changes in leech tension control (as for power-pinching into tacks, going 'up' in the slows, and gaining significant windward lift when approaching the layline at the near the end of 'closehauled leg' for significant distance gains - boatlengths gained - on the 'next' leg).
High speed catamarans and planning hull forms REALLY benefit from vang sheeting.
 
Sep 20, 2014
1,320
Rob Legg RL24 Chain O'Lakes
OK, but logically, the only reason for twist in the sail is so the angle of attack is correct for the wind shear up the full height of the sail. Any extra twist would be a form of reefing, would it not?
My theory would be that effectively reefing the sail at the top is going to be more efficient because of the reduced leverage on healing. So while the top of the sail may produce drag, the wind load at the bottom of the sail is going to put more of the power to the forward motion of the boat, because it is low enough for the boat to handle it.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
The need to set twist, .... OR not FWIW.

For normal sailing in normal/usual wind speed ranges (12-15kts) and usual humidity/temperature conditions, typically the sailmaker has already designed in the proper amount of twist - typically ~5° of twist. Your LOCAL sailmaker knows the correct amount for your usual local winds.
In the case of mainsails, this is automatically obtained if the adjustment of angle of the top of the boom to the mast is equal to the 'tack angle' of the sail (the angle the luff makes with the foot .... specified by the sailmaker and is usually in the range of approx. 87-89°).

The proper tack angle of the mainsail is also dependent on the luff tension in the mainsail.
A. in new/modern sails such as high tech laminates or woven dacron made of 'high aspect ratio' (non stretchable fabric) --- usually the sail is hoisted 'just up'.
B. in older sails made of stretchy woven dacron (and for many sails made specifically for 'racing'), the luff must be stretched out a wee bit when raising to gain that all important tack angle for the sail to 'set' correctly to its designed shape when 'raised'.
Both conditions will allow the sail to 'set' with the shape that the sailmaker indended/designed.

back to 'twist', ..... or rather 'wind gradient'.
At wind speeds of approx 12-15kts. (normal climatic sailing conditions) will have an approx. consistent 5° of wind gradient for most recreational sailboats and sailmakers will design this gradient / twist into the sail.
At wind speeds greater than 15-18kts the wind gradient becomes LESS, hence less need for inducing more 'twist'. Only where there are significant wave peaks and deep troughs will one encounter significant 'gradient' - down low, where the sea birds fly during boisterous conditions.
At wind speeds BELOW 6-7kts. wind gradient starts to become greater and may be as high as 10° (top to bottom) hence the usual need to allow the boom rise to gain twist... either by easing mainsheet pressure or vang pressure.

In normal sail design for sailing in 12-15kts.etc, the usual practice to only 'finely' adjust twist (actually setting/shaping the sail to its as-designed tack angle): go onto a beat with traveller set to centerline, apply mainsheet (or vang) tension so that area at or just below or at the topmost batten is somewhat parallel to the centerline of the boat AND the tell tale located at/near the topmost batten is streaming straight back ... using fine adjustments in mainsheet and/or vang tension to get the upper leech tell tale correctly flowing.
In winds less than 6-7 knots, mainsheet and/or vang are eased to accommodate the need to induce more 'twist'. At under 6-7kts twist will vary due to humidity and temperature condition (at extremes from 'normal')
At higher than ~18kts wind gradient is lessened (less need for 'twist') BUT in such conditions one can EXPECT waves (~3-4 ft. depending on the 'fetch'). Such waves cause a boat to 'pitch' in harmony with the wave fronts. This pitching causes especially the upper sections of the sail plan to 'precess back and forth' and encounter apparent cyclical accelerations and deceleration of wind speed aloft due to the 'pitching'; and, the sail will constantly 'attach' then stall as the dynamic center of effort constantly moves/goes 'up and down' on the pitching sail. The typical sail shape remedy is to flatten so that the wind stays better and longer 'attached' to the upper sections during the 'cyclical oscillations' using average maximum boat speed (VMG) as the criteria for optimized sail SHAPE. However, an overly twisted off sail will have the following mal-chacteristic of the average CE more rapdily going up and going down the sail leading to intervals of boat acceleration/decelerations. With slower boat speed the boat is more vulnerable increased harmonic heeling and rolling leading to even slower average speed. A flattened main with actively used traveller lessens the harmonic heeling/rolling, keeps the CE to a lesser up/down shift ..... and one can ease totally ease the traveller and steer up to partly luff if needed to 'survive' such as a knockdown, etc.
Dumping/playing the traveller reduces 'upwash' (the deflecting of the wind way out in front of the boat that is getting out of way of the oncoming windward side of mainsail) TO the jib/genoa; hence, playing the traveller depowers the jib/genoa AND the main and while changing/decreasing the angle of attack (of the wind) to BOTH sails.

FWIW and paranthetically - wind shear events are usually random and with little 'regular period of shift', etc. and usually are handled with a FLAT non-overly twisted shape, including rapid shifts in wind-direction due to the extreme turbulence. A flat sail if 'caught' on the wrong side by the shift will mostly immediately 'stall'. An overly-twisted sail in very turbulent shear will be more vulnerable to a 'goose-wing' event (air flow from a totally different direction at the top in comparison to the bottom) --- and the trimmers/helmsman simply cant/wont be able to react/guess that fast during a 'goose-wing' event of what is going to happen 'next', an overly flat sail is more easily controlled.




Rx: Twist is already inbuilt to a sail by the sailmaker for sailing in 12-15kts. ... just get that effective 'tack angle' of the main correct by getting the aft end of topmost batten approx. parallel to the boats centerline and with its adjacent leech tell tale correctly streaming. Use micro adjustments of mainsheet/vang to get the flow attachment at the 'top' correct while watching the leech tell tale near the top batten.

Gradient wind concerns are 99% of the time a non-issue when above 18kts.; so, flatten down and 'play the traveller' to keep the boat on its feet during 'gusts' and periods of being overpowered (such as the boat skidding off to leeward because of the large angle of heel).

Below ~6-7kts. definitely induce more twist by easing the mainsheet and/or the vang

At near 0kts., lessen the weight of the boom pulling down the sail by 'helping' with the topping lift or easing the rigid vang so that the leech is correctly shaped and the leech not pulled too tight and with the aft end of the topmost batten not pointing higher (to windward) of the centerline of the boat (when 'closehauled') because of the too-tight leech.

An aside (re: racing):
When high level racing such as match racing or highly competitive one design racing, If a good tactician sees a boat 'twisting off' to depower (rather than blading off by keen & accurate traveller use, etc.), ....... that's a clear signal for an open invitation by a close competitor to come closer and ATTACK, such as with a tacking duel to drive the boat with errors in sail shape onto a forced unfavored tack, or roll over the top of him to windward and 'shoot a lot of turbulence' at him, or establish a 'safe lee bow' position ... and a gain in MANY MANY boatlengths in doing so. Good tacticians ALWAYS look for sail shape and trim errors on close-by competitors boats (thats why good tacticians are always looking through binoculars at competitors) ... and then will 'attack' such 'vulnerabilities' when there is an 'advantage' in doing so.


Summary, - twist
---- dont get yourself overly twisted up about twist, especially in the moderate to higher wind ranges if your upper tell tales are close to flying correctly. Your sailmaker has already built-in 95% of the correct twist in the sail design for sailing in 'normal' wind/wave conditions.
Twist is REALLY only vitally important in LOW winds when the 'usual' wind gradient can be MUCH LARGER, larger than what the sailmaker designed into the sail and you have to 'reshape' to accommodate to prevent an invisible 'separation' stall. HEAVY booms are the bane of light wind sailing, as they 'de-twist' as their heavy weight pulls down on the leech of a sail.
Its, usually better to momentarily depower with the traveller - IMO.

hope this helps.

;-)
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
With all due respect, thats totally and entirely inane and just simply WRONG.
LOL. You need to put down the keyboard (and the cut and paste URL graphics) and go SAIL for awhile. ;^)

From Quatum's lead sail designer. Read the section on Heavy Air Trim. He describes exactly what we do, in almost the exact same words.

https://www.quantumsails.com/get_file.aspx?file=05080d68-b104-49e5-9f57-ee8405d07509

I'm marveling at the fact that is is a new concept to you. It works. It's fast. As as the Geko says, 'Everybody knows that'.
 
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Oct 26, 2008
6,085
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Ok ... what's the deal?

For years in this forum, I've been ridiculed and slammed for arguing that playing the main sheet works best for handling gusts in heavy air. This article says that the traveler is fine for fine tuning and in moderate conditions, but the most effective method for gross sail shape adjustments, necessary in heavy air conditions, is done by working the main sheet.

I've discussed how I find that I can maintain the traveler quite high by easing the mainsheet in heavy gusts. When I'm single-handing, one hand on the wheel and one hand on the mainsheet works very well for maintaining optimum speed and keeping the boat working upwind.

So this article seems to vindicate everything I've written in the past. Everything said in this article relates to what I have been finding by experience, contrary to the arguments which have been beat into my head on this forum. Is this the time I get to say "I told you so"?!?!?! Going back to what works for me ....
 

weinie

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Sep 6, 2010
1,297
Jeanneau 349 port washington, ny
For years in this forum, I've been ridiculed and slammed for arguing that playing the main sheet works best for handling gusts in heavy air. This article says that the traveler is fine for fine tuning and in moderate conditions, but the most effective method for gross sail shape adjustments, necessary in heavy air conditions, is done by working the main sheet.

I've discussed how I find that I can maintain the traveler quite high by easing the mainsheet in heavy gusts. When I'm single-handing, one hand on the wheel and one hand on the mainsheet works very well for maintaining optimum speed and keeping the boat working upwind.

So this article seems to vindicate everything I've written in the past. Everything said in this article relates to what I have been finding by experience, contrary to the arguments which have been beat into my head on this forum. Is this the time I get to say "I told you so"?!?!?! Going back to what works for me ....
Did you not read RichH's wall of (very informative) text?