I used to crew on a Soverel 27 that had cam cleats mounted like that. No problems whatsoever when racing. Definitely faster than horn cleats.
Cam cleats for jib sheets??
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I favor horn cleats, wrap the line twice around the base and it will act like a Chinese puzzle. The harder the load the stronger the hold. To release just pull on the slack end of the line.
Put the cam cleats on risers to reduce opportunity for over rides. No fairleads on cleats... making them NON captive. The open cleats at proper height allows you to hand strip while on the tiller, until you get the boat on course and use both hands for the final trim.
Risers give knuckle room but they have no effect on overrides, since override happen from the bottom up. In fact, cam cleats on the bulkhead below the winch work just fine and release from a distance is even more certain.
As you can see, I use cam cleats on self-tail inches as well. They are faster than taking the rope out of the tailer, good for both breezy conditions and tacking. I've done this on several boats. Note that the cleat is below the winch. No override possible. It is the lead into the winch (from below) that is critical.
As long as the winch has enough turns that it can be hand tailed, the cleat will not be overloaded. The peak working load on this winch has been measured at 1800 pounds. Tight.
On my Ranger 26 I had horn cleat type jam cleats for the jib sheets. One turn and a tug and they were good to go.
About as fast as cam cleats. And they provided an extra horn cleat for raft ups or mooring.
About as fast as cam cleats. And they provided an extra horn cleat for raft ups or mooring.
Never though of that. All the racing I did with that boat was with crew and no one even thought of cam cleats.
I never considered cam cleats for sheeting until I bought my present boat that has them and I like them fine.
I haven't had a horn cleat on a sheet... ever... including larger cats. An obsolete concept for most boats.
Jammers and horn cleats are OK for infrequent adjustments or those were release would be critical or inconvenient. Also when a winch cannot be dedicated (cam cleats can only be used on the tail of a winch, not the load side).
Jammers and horn cleats are OK for infrequent adjustments or those were release would be critical or inconvenient. Also when a winch cannot be dedicated (cam cleats can only be used on the tail of a winch, not the load side).
I expect they’ll work, but I can’t predict that you will be happy with them. I’ve some experience using cam cleats. On some Cal 20s a cam cleat on a metal mount fixed under the winch base is used to stop-off the jib sheet. There are also some Cal20s rigged with no winch: just the cam cleat. Of course, you routinely find them on mainsheet travelers. Sometimes find them controlling the furling line of the headsail, etc. They are difficult to use under much load. It sometimes takes a mighty heave upward, while pulling back, to release one under much load. Then, of course, your hand is holding the load after the sheet is popped out. Also, you might have to either stand at the correct height/angle, or somehow muster the upward thrust with your one arm if sitting, to free the sheet. Conversely, the fancier ones (if still around) have a release that engages to release (open the jaws) when you pull downward. On small boats with small loads, releasing is not a problem. Larger boats, 20 ft & above, in strong to moderate wind, you’lll be fighting them to release and to not reset before you are ready in some of my experience.
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Not all cam cleats are created alike. There are some that are hard to engage and others easier. The Harken cam cleats seem to hit a sweet spot, easy to engage and release. Where the cleats are mounted also play a role. It helps to have the cleats in a location that facilitates a downward pull to engage the line in the cleat.
As with most things on a boat, nothing is perfect. A cam cleat provides a quicker and easier release than a sheet on a ST winch or on a horn cleat.
I just don’t know if that is always so. If the winch is backed by a cam cleat; yes, the winch carries most of the load and the CC keeps fast the sheet. But to release you might have to pull back some on the sheet to free it from the jaws. This could be hard. Conversely, the self-tailing guide has no load. But, practice makes perfect, etc. So, yes—it could work, as I said.
A common mistake is to try to engage or release the line without pulling it at the same time. Like cars before power steering, it really helps if the line is moving, even a tiny bit. It is the motion that opens the cams.
I guess I learned this dinghy sailing, 40 years ago.
I guess I learned this dinghy sailing, 40 years ago.
This is what I meant by an open cam cleat on a riser. If the line is low to the deck when you release it, the top wrap can drift down over the stack... may or may not be an issue to some folks, just sayin'... but the big advantage of the riser is the ease in up/down line motion to engage and disengage the cleat. When easing trim under heavy load the cleat sometimes has difficulty releasing. In this case, ease the load with the winch handle just enough to get the line out of the cleat.... When tacking, you can snap the line free. When cruising or day sailing, I'll load up the ST jaws as soon as I'm on course to take advantage of it's convenience. When working the boat up wind, such as you might in racing scenario, I rarely mess with the ST function.... opting to go standard winch style with the cam cleat. Just my preference... but it's way, way faster and requires less moving around the cockpit when single handing
Good points. By the same token, a riser can get in the way, particularly on boats were crew may sit on the combing. They can also make it difficult or impossible to release a sheet if the crew is sitting far away and cannot pull upwards. The best answer is certainly boat specific.
A few boat specific observations from my F-24, for the OP and others. These observations have been just as true on two prior, larger, multihulls:
- The reacher/chute cam cleats are inside the combing, under the winches, in the cockpit. If they were on the combing the crew could not release the chute if sitting out on the amas and could not slide across or sit on the combing.
- The jib sheets cleats are on the forward bulkhead, below the winches (yes, they are self-tailers). This allows the sheets to be released from either in the cockpit or on the tramps.
Not all of the cleats are positioned that way, as you can see. The barber hauler and furler cleat positions are more conventional. Jammers are used where security is important. But specific to multihulls and dinghies, you MUST be able to blow sheets instantly from any position. It's not that all multihulls are that tender. The F-24 is quite stable and forgiving. So was my cruising cat. It's just good practice. The best practice for most monohulls may be different. But I remember the first time I was sitting out on my F-24 in a breeze, singlehanding and holding an 8' tiller extension. Suddenly I realized that I could not release the mainsheet from that position. The PO had it angled down too far. I repositioned the cleat that evening.
The weird triangular tarp over the boom? I was experimenting with riding sail designs. This is one of the most effective and strongest.
Some of my lines run under tramps and the slack is controlled by a bungee. Too much angle and they want to self cleat at the wrong time. Too little they want to release at the wrong time. I need to change the angle on my shroud tensioners next time I'm at the boat. Thanks for the reminder!
(This is somewhat common on multihulls, as slack laying on the tramps tends to get washed aft and off by waves.)
Self jamming horn cleats work quiet effectively on my Mac 25 also. kind of a best of both worlds IMHO.
My RL had cleats right at the edge of the cabin. This made it very easy to cleat and uncleat. I never understood why the boat had winches till I sailed in 30 mph winds. I also found that if you use cheap double braided line from Menards, it collapses under high tension and the jam cleat doesn't work as well. I had to make sure the line was completely straight in the cleat before I could let go, otherwise the line would ride up or down and not stay centered. Under more moderate conditions the line stayed fat and would self center.
I've had cam cleats and jam cleats. I prefer cam. Jam cleats often slip if you don't put a half wrap in the line or cross it over. At least on my boat anyways.
Take a look at Barton Winchers. They're supposed to turn a normal winch into a self tailing. Overall reviews are positive. I just ordered a pair. Waiting for them to arrive
Take a look at Barton Winchers. They're supposed to turn a normal winch into a self tailing. Overall reviews are positive. I just ordered a pair. Waiting for them to arrive
Little late to this thread, but my C310 cam with a jam cleat for the main sheet and that was OK unless you were single handing, then in most winds it would pop out. As Catalina had a really nice aluminum plate that the jam cleat was tapped in, what I did was make a 2-piece rig of starboard and moved the cleat up (that also helped the angle) and then added a jam cleat just aft of that that was also raised up so it lined up with the sheet coming out of the jam cleat. Now a quick snap of the wrist and the main sheet can be pulled in and out and under really heavy loads the jam cleat takes the load.
