Cabin heater opinions wanted

[Roger Long]

I installed an Espar Airtronic D(iesel) 4 back in 2004.

Thanks for a good solid data point.

Based on your experience with a boat of about the same volume as mine (32' x 10'), do you think a single duct exiting at the back of the cabin right at floor level would give me reasonable results? I know the head will be colder but I can live with that. It has a louvered door so I could put in a 12 V exhaust fan (a good thing to have anyway) and a removable cap for the dorade vent that enters it and suck warm air into it from the cabin when needed.

"Reasonable results" means there won't be anyone on board who is expecting home style comfort and heat and who will squeal if they encounter a slightly cool spot.

 

[stephen Penny]

Consider a used Force 10 kerosene heater. Kerosene is relatively safe. Tank can be purchased new. I have one on a 1987 Hunter which I am currently refurbishing it (new tank). Operating instructions on line.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Consider a used Force 10 kerosene heater. Kerosene is relatively safe. Tank can be purchased new. I have one on a 1987 Hunter which I am currently refurbishing it (new tank). Operating instructions on line.

Stephen, perhaps you haven't read the previous posts. I have one. It does not work. is that clear enough?

 

[sailingdog]

Why not go with a propane powered stove, unless you're trying to avoid adding propane to a non-propane equipped boat?

The small bulkhead mounted heaters are very nice and work fairly well, especially if you add a small fan to help circulate the hot air. They're relatively simple to install. One issue I've seen is that the exhaust from the diesel or solid fuel ones can cause soot stains on the sails if the exhaust isn't positioned carefully.

 

[Roger Long]

Why not go with a propane powered stove

I don't want to introduce an explosive fuel.

I don't have any place to store the bottles. There are two lockers built into the boat but they are a defective design that won't vent overboard properly and are for the hard to get mid-size bottles.

I'm going to Nova Scotia and Newfoundland where it may be hard to get.

I can carry 38 gallons of diesel on my boat and cruise at 10 miles to the gallon. 48 with two jugs on deck.

I'm a pig headed luddite.

 

[sailingdog]

Roger—

I can't argue with any of that... especially the last reason...

I don't want to introduce an explosive fuel.

I don't have any place to store the bottles. There are two lockers built into the boat but they are a defective design that won't vent overboard properly and are for the hard to get mid-size bottles.

I'm going to Nova Scotia and Newfoundland where it may be hard to get.

I can carry 38 gallons of diesel on my boat and cruise at 10 miles to the gallon. 48 with two jugs on deck.

I'm a big headed luddite.

 

[druid]

OK, from the Great White North... I started with an "Espar clone" diesel furnace from Volvo. It wasn't that reliable, burned a lot of fuel, and worst, used a LOT of electricity! And although it heated the entire cabin, it wasn't good for heating ME up when I go down below after sailing in the snow.

So I tossed it and put in a diesel Dickinson. They're a bit of a pain to get started, but provide GREAT heat, and I LIKE the smell - reminds me of the oil-stove we had when I was a child. Add a fan and it's a great heat. ALL the commercial boats around here have one, or the stove version. Unfortunately, nobody likes the starting, or the smell, so I don't think you can get one any more.

I have the propane version in my "new" boat: MUCH easier to start and doesn't smell at all, but doesn't put out as much heat.

I'd say see if you can find one of these:
http://www.dickinsonmarine.com/heatersmain.html

(And they're a Good Canadian Company! )
druid
"Coatue" Crown 28

 

[sophias wanderings]

I found the a very functional used heater at Bacon Sales and Marine Supply store in Annapolis. They take consignment equipment and I found a Canaflame Boat/Cabin Heater (made in Canada). It's constructed of stainless steel with a brass and glass port - so you can see the flames. It burns gelled alcohol (Sterno) so it doesn't need venting. It also has a cooking surface on the top.

It produces quite a bit of heat and made the cabin of my Catalina 27 very comfortable while working on it this winter.

Unfortunately, the company is o/b. They heaters do pop-up for sale on eBay and at other consignment shops every now and then. Well worth looking for!

 

[Roger Long]

I'd say see if you can find one of these:
http://www.dickinsonmarine.com/heatersmain.html

That's exactly what I'm thinking about and it's now the front runner. I love all things Canadian anyway. The ceramic tile lined alcove will be the depth of the heater with probably a bottom made out of a piece of soapstone.

The electrical draw of the current second place option, an Espar airtronic, with it's burner fan is looming ever larger in my mind. Reliability for planned cruises to remote places is vital. If I lost my engine, I would also lose my heat a few hours later with the Espar. There are also a lot of other ways it could go down. The Newport with a gravity tank could be started from my emergency battery and probably kept going in a pinch without it's boost fan. I could siphon fuel into the gravity tank if I lost all electrical power. I would also probably carry a length of extension stove pipe for a really long stack to minimize fan use at anchor.

If I was stranded with a dead engine and maybe a disabled boat, I would really want heat.

 

[geneWj]

If U remove the book case or the clock and barometer, U can put a piece of s/s on either bulkhead and run a stove pipe up to the deck. I have a Force 10 propane heater on TPIII which has served us well for 12 years, if i were to do it again I'd use the same installation but use diesel as I carry 110 gallons.
I would NOT go to a solid, takes up too much space.
geneWj

 

[Roger Long]

It burns gelled alcohol (Sterno) so it doesn't need venting.

No un-vented heater is an option or needs to be mentioned here again. My Origo stove does a surprisingly good job of taking the chill off. However, the objective of heat is as much to dry things out as to get warm. I can always put on more clothes. People climb Everest without heat. Anything that burns will create moisture as a by product and, without a vent, will just make conditions worse.

 

[Bob V]

I have installed an Espar on a previous boat and now a Wabasto on my C42. They were both diesel fueled hydronic systems using rubber hose to transport the heat throughout the boat. The one I have now even has an Everhot water heater plumbed in. The water heater keeps up with demand and never cools down as you use the shower.

Both systems were expensive, difficult to install and noisy but well worth it. I ran the hoses on latest one along the underside of the cabin sole attached to the underside of the fiberglass sole pan. i have heat exchangers in the forward head, aft head, galley, saloon, and aft bunk. A couple of these use intake air from a large aft lazzerette so I think it may help to dry the boat slightly.

Operation of the system is just like the hydronic system in my house, which is also deisel fired. All you do is turn the thermostat and the whole boat reaches that temperature quickly. It also runs off of engine heat if the engine is running. There are no cold spots anywhere in the boat unless I choose to turn off some of the heat exchanges with the toggle switch in each room and close off part of the boat.

I don't usually run the furnace all night long unless it is really cold. I run it up extra warm just before turning in for the night and don't turn it back on unless the dog is complaining. On those few occasions when overnight heat is needed you will learn not to mind the noise because that is the sound heat makes.

 

[palacegrand]

< snip > the biggest noise in the boat has been the clicking of the fuel pump but you can eliminate that noise by hanging the pump portion with a wire tie instead of screwing it in the bulkhead.

< snip >

The biggest noise normally associated with both units is the exhaust sound. It is a bit like a jet engine. Those inside the boat really don't hear it but those sitting in a cockpit next to your boat do and it is annoying. That is why I recommend the muffler.
< snip >

Hmmm, good idea for the pump Les, I'll give this some thought for my situation.
Re: noise. I'm sure most of us hate the sound of somebody's generator or engine running for hours in a quiet anchorage. I've found that the sound of the forced air units can often be as bad. Of course I'm the kind of sailor that likes to sit in the cockpit reading/eating/drinking instead of sitting inside watching TV.
However I digress. What kind of muffler Les? I can't seem to find anything besides the water lift mufflers for the engine.

Craig

 

[druid]

Just to re-iterate one point about the forced-air (the one that actually made me toss it in favour of the Dickinson): It heats the cabin fine, but it's not a source of a LOT of heat. Picture the difference between central heating and a fireplace. The central heating is good, but when you come in from the cold, you want a nice HOT fire to warm yourself on! I even found myself curled up on the floor, my hands around the hot-air vent... Oh, and the Dickinson has a spot for a small kettle: ideal for hot chocolate!

As for installation: I had 2 45 deg bends, and that's about the max you'd want for the Dickinson. And I just used a pump off the second output of my primary fuel filter to supply the heater - they say not to do that, but I had no problems with it. (although the tick-tick of the pump IS a bit annoying when it's the only sound.)

I have a pic of my installation somewhere - I'll see if I can dig it up.

druid
"Coatue" Crown 28

 

[Les]

Craig. The muffler I put on my Webasto boat furnace was made by Sure Marine in Seattle. They specialize in heating, cooking and BBQs. I just called them and they told me that they make the mufflers and have several different sizes. They would make them for Espar as well although they do not sell Espar units.

Sure Marine can be contacted at: http://www.suremarine.com Their web site is awesome in this subject area. The only heat sources that I didn't buy from them were the fireplace, the Heat Pal and the Taylor kerosine bulkhead heater. Then I found this place and have been warm ever since.

To others on this thread, my three Webasto heaters have used very little battery power. They never ran my batteries down even when I spent several days in an anchorage. I'm using a Group31 for my house battery now.

I wish you well.

Les

 

[paulj]

Roger Long


""I can carry 38 gallons of diesel on my boat and cruise at 10 miles to the gallon. 48 with two jugs on deck.""

I will have to see how you store the two jugs of diesel fuel on deck before I will give my thumbs up and how you will transfer the fuel in heavy weather.


I knew all along you were going diesel..........


paulj :troll:

 

[Roger Long]

I will have to see how you store the two jugs of diesel fuel on deck before I will give my thumbs up and how you will transfer the fuel in heavy weather.

I'm not a believer in jugs on deck but might be going to Newfoundland. 10 gallons of the below deck capacity is actually in plastic jerry cans but I have a very secure space in the seat locker that fits them exactly where they can't get adrift.

I don't transfer in heavy weather but have done it underway. I got a spare lift pump for emergency back up and realized, why have it sitting in a locker? It's rigged with hoses and a cord to the 12 volt "lighter" socket. I also have an auxiliary vent in the tank I can open for fueling to avoid spouting out the overboard vent and the pump hose goes in there. Transferring fuel from the jugs is easy.

 

[Roger Long]

Just to re-iterate one point about the forced-air (the one that actually made me toss it in favour of the Dickinson): It heats the cabin fine, but it's not a source of a LOT of heat.

Druid, you bring up an EXCELLENT point which is probably the clincher in this decision. You just reminded me of something I had forgotten.

20 years ago, we bought a house with electric heat and I immediately installed a proper hot water heating system. I used modern, German radiators in the living room and baseboards for my office in the next room. The first task after getting it running was to balance the system so I had thermometers all over the house. The living room felt nice and cosy but it felt like the temperature dropped 10 degrees walking into my office. I checked the thermometers and the measured temperature was exactly the same! That's the difference between radiant heat and just hot air.

 

[SamLust]

A diesel Heater just makes plain sense to me for a diesel auxiliary sailboat. The fuel storage system is already there, and probably very safe. Once lighted it will run forever without need of any outside power.

My Hunter 33 has a compression post as it appears your boat has. I mounted a Dickinson bulkhead mount heater on the post using home cobbled brackets. It is centrally mounted and allows exactly the length of flue pipe Dickinson recommends. No chopping up of woodwork. The heater drops right on to my mounts.A couple of wing nuts keep it from falling up. Fuel feeds from a separate 3 gallon "day tank" which is higher than the heater's metering system. Feed is thus gravity with no "tick-tock. I fill from the main tank through the Racor using the electric pump. I can have it out of the boat for cleaning or maintenance in less than 10 minutes. It is close the the floor for best heat distribution. Reasonably miserly with fuel.

A few seasons ago five of us were sailing on the bay in a cold, heavy rain fo no reason better than the fun of it. We anchored, fired up the Dickinson and were toasty warm in less that 10 minutes. It works for me. Pictures below taken during an interior fiberglassing project.

 

[palacegrand]

Sam, I was pondering a similar installation myself, and wondered why I had never seen one. Cool.
Is the white pvc your day tank? If so, I don't see where the fuel tops up or vents. Not necessarily the most elegant looking solution as is, but a very clever one that could quite easily be "cosmeticised".
Les, Thanks for the Suremarine link. I'll be giving them a call at some point.

cheers,
jcm