Cabin heater opinions wanted

[Roger Long]

I remember you lost your barn? Are you working under a tarp?

The boat is shrink wrapped in a marina so any major project is going to be very difficult. I hadn't planned to do anything this winter. I can get by without heat in NS next summer if I don't return too late. However, reading, "The Boy, Me, and the Cat" and this recent cold snap has made me realize how much I might need it next fall if I want to take the boat south. I would have wanted a heater in Key West last week.

 

[Ross]

Roger, If you decide on solid fuel (my first choice)be certain to get one of these.
http://www.amazon.com/Coleman-2000001678-Camp-Saw/dp/B00168NJXA

 

[Cayennita]

I did the ICW in my Hunter Legend 35 back in 1995 with an automobile heater and fan from a wreck yard. Hooked it up to the same piping as used for the hot water heater. I installed it at deck level inside one of the settee lockers. Since i was going to motor for a long time in Novemeber and December, it was a good, cheap solution. Had an electric ceramic heater for the early morning wake up call. Not sure if you want to run your engine that long though.

 

[Cayennita]

A friend of mine has an Endeavor 32 in a lake in Texas and it is for sale. He moved to St. Croix, USVI and is buying a larger live aboard. Maybe you can make a deal.

 

[shorty]

Dickenson

Mine is propane which you said you don't want, but I believe they have a solid fuel or diesel version, and others have similar. Nice compact installation. The propane version, 12,000 btu is good in Maine into October.

 

[Roger Long]

Nice compact installation.

Any problem with floor and feet being cold due the heater being up so high in the boat?

 

[Ross]

My Force 10 propane heater is mounted on the companion bulkhead about 4 feet above the floor. It tends to only heat the air above chest height. I have a small fan that we use in the summer time for cooling and use that to mix the air in cold weather but then it feels sort of drafty.

 

[Les]

I've had a wood fire stove in one boat, a Heat Pal in another boat, two bulkhead mounted heaters (both Kerosene), one Webasto hot water heat and two Webasto hot air furnaces. What can I say, I live in the Pacific Northwest where it is always cool and when the admiral wants to stay warm, I get heat for her so that she doesn't give me heat. Okay?

I went from terrible in heat options to top of the line in my boats. Guess I just had to learn. The fireplace was terrible--it smoked and if the wind blew, chase us out of the cabin. It also used up a lot of oxygen (something to consider). The heat Pal (alcohol) produced heat but smelled and drove us out of the cabin too. The Heat Pal also produced a great amount of moister...everything below got damp. They still make them.

We've had two bulkhead mounted kerosene heaters, one British and one Force Ten. The Taylor (British) was mounted low and worked fairly well. The Force Ten worked as well but was mounted higher up and our feet got cold. I tried a fan but needed a bigger one. My wife (the admiral) did not like the bulkhead heaters and said they smelled. I enjoyed them however.

On a boat that we charted to others, we installed a Webasto hydroponic hot water system. Expensive but I could write it off. Radiators in all cabins. No smell. Noisy in the stern where the furnace was. Great heat but you had to bleed the system from time to time, mostly after charterers who didn't know how to use it. Probably the best system that I've had.

My last two systems have been Webasto hot air units, one a 1999 and one a 2009. Both were outstanding. The 1999 unit was Wabasto's mid size unit and heated a H380. Two complaints. Once on, it made a loud sound out the stern which made for unhappy dock mates. But we found out they make a muffler and had that installed and our life was good. The other complaint was who was going to get up in the morning to turn it on. I would fake sleeping and sometimes my wife would get up and do the deed--but sometimes she just nudged me and said, "go turn on the heat."

Presently we have a 2009 Hunter 27 with a 2009 Webasto hot air heat with muffler. It uses very little diesel and has three openings, one in the aft cabin, one in the head (I really like that) and one in the main cabin. Takes about twenty minutes to heat the boat up for me but it is nice! Really nice! So much so that I have been taken to going down to the boat in bad weather, turning on the heat, getting my Kindle out and making me a thermo glass of Viva, Starbucks new instant coffee. Great stuff. Then snuggle up in a bunk in the main cabin and read "Three Men in a Boat," for the nth time. What a way to spend the afternoon.

By the way, you can buy Webasto systems in a box for the DIY folk. They say it is very easy. I think the furling main, the Max prop and the Webasto furnace are all mandatory items on my boats now.

Hope this helps.

 

[palacegrand]

< snip >
Best option because of space limitations and a desire for hot water would be an Espar water circulating system but is will be as much as a new set of sails and all new standing rigging even if I do the whole installation myself. < snip >

I just went up to measure and look at the cabin and there are two options for either a diesel or solid fuel heater which would be less than half the cost:

< snip >

WHICH would you do?

Roger,
Just a few quick thoughts.
I'm going through the "heater choice" thing myself. My boat is a Yamaha 30, located in Sidney BC. Got time for winter cruising so heat & dry air is important. There is currently an Espar installed & functioning, but jet sound, pump noise & amperage use bother me so I'd like to install a bulkhead heater instead. Dickinson Newport is the primary choice, trying to decide between propane & diesel. (Propane already on board with sensors etc so that's not an issue for me) Propane is a cheaper installation, don't like the idea of an internal gravity tank for the diesel. Anyway ......

My research seems to say that solid fuels are just not worth it for any kind of regular usage. Too much interior mess (ash & fuel) and exterior mess as well (ash on decks, sailcovers, neighbours boats etc). I believe you need greater clearances/shielding for solid fuel use. Also usually a longer draft requirement. And as Sumner points out, not as many BTU's. If I was going solid, I think a rubbermaid container of broken up "presto-logs" is the best idea for fuel, so storage needs to be taken into account. Also, perhaps think about salt content in beach driftwood if it's to be your primary fuel source. (I used wood from the beach in a house for a while, it would eat through flue pipes yearly, though granted they weren't stainless)

Looking at your interior .... it's a toss up, but if you don't use the drawers much, rebuilding the hanging locker would probably be the way to go. If so I'd end up with a gravity tank mounted above it. (the tick tick tick of my fuel pump drives me crazy!) However, I'm a packrat so my drawers are always full of shi .... er .... important stuff, and therefore the shelf/table rebuild might be the better choice. You realize that you can in fact put a bend in your flue right? This way you could mount the heater port of the mast and have your Charlie Noble starboard of the mast. Would intrude a little into your forward V-berth/head access but still workable.

Anyways, there's a couple of comments for you to chew on.

cheers and good luck,
Craig

 

[Roger Long]

There is currently an Espar installed & functioning, but jet sound, pump noise & amperage use bother me so I'd like to install a bulkhead heater instead.

Thanks for the good thoughts. I especially appreciate hearing from someone with an Espar. Noise is a concern to me as the quiet of the places I'm cruising to will make it very apparent. Is your Espar air or water circulating? The air versions must make more noise because of the sound channel through the ducts. There is still fan noise with the water circulating ones though.

I have a fuel polishing system and transfer pump so can plumb an easy way to fill a daytank without schlepping fuel around the boat.

Whichever in-cabin heater installation I went with, I would have to have two 45 elbows in the flue. I don't think I would want to duck under it for the rest of my life though. I'm tall and crossing from one side of the cabin to the other would require two 90 degree elbows.

Good point about the clearances for solid fuel. The insulation and clearances have to be for the maximum temperature that can be obtained. With variation in solid fuel and loading, that is way higher than for diesel. I think that is the nail in the coffin for solid fuel in this boat.

I can't imagine having a smoke head right under my primary halyard and reefing line handling area. I think it's come down to a race between the hanging locker alcove and Espar options. One, I can't afford this year and the other is too big a project to undertake in a shrink wrapped boat. I may have to get through this season and make this next year's project.

I'd really like to get a handle on the Espar noise issue in the meantime. I also expect that the electrical draw is enough in a low solar climate like I'm cruising to that I would find myself running the engine some every night as well.

[/quote]

 

[shorty]

Feet

The propane Dickinson has a circulation fan that makes all the difference in the world. That being said, it will not heat you through the winter but does do a very nice job of knocking off the chill of autumn Maine. I have a buddy with an Espar installed on his Nonsuch 30. I'll see if I can get him to weigh in.
Re: deck stack - Charlie Noble is under the can you see in the photo. Charlie from Dickinson is not a terribly hardy fellow so I fashioned the cap so he wouldn't get messed up w/jib sheets & boarding seas etc. I have seen hardier ones, but for crossing the Gulf to NS it seems prudent to me to have Charlie in full battle dress.
Just remember to pull the cap before lighting the match! With propane it is actually not a safety issue because if you forget the cap, you get no draft, close the door, flame goes out, then you remember. Lighting solid fuel could give you some smoke.

 

[catsailor]

The heater can be mounted low. I didn't have space down low.

Any problem with floor and feet being cold due the heater being up so high in the boat?

Also, the fan blows the heat downwards. I too, use a summer fan to move the air, which works because the heaters is not in a sitting area, it is in the nav area. But I can also tell you that it does not feel drafty there; the air is very warm!

I too had space limitations. I actually taped a cardboard box to the bulkhead for the entire summer in the desired spot, just to see it it was too bothersome.

I would not use an un-vented heater in Maine; in warm climates where it is turned off at night, OK maybe, but I value my brain cell far too highly to risk and damage from CO (not CO2 - I'm not certain there is a commonly available CO2 monitor). I sleep on the boat and cruise in the winter WELL below freezing and wanted a heater that would put out heat and be safe all night.

My boat already had a full propane system, with detectors, a solenoid, and a proper 2-tank locker. However, In your situation I would have selected the diesel version. A post about the installation: http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/search?q=heat+dixson

 

[JimGeddes]

I use an Origo Heat Mate heater. Portable, stable and inexpensive. They can be had in either the old or new style for anywhere from $20 to $200. They emit carbon di-oxide so there is no chance of deadly fumes and the fuel is cheap. I highly recommend this a an alternative to an installed model.

My dad bought me one of these b4 we left, i don't like it..

- You have to refuel it every time you use it b/c the alcohol evaporates (it comes with a rubber cover but it still evaporates)

- It really doesn't put out a lot of heat. The last couple hrs of the 6 hrs a 1 qt fueling is suppose to last it is basically dead..

- it is kindof expensive for what it is.. you can make one out of coffee can and some cotton... I think i missed my calling

.. But you can use it for a stove to make coffee in the morning :dance:

 

[Stu Jackson]

Issues include condensation

You'll find the hot air heaters are much better for eliminating condensation than the hot water/coil units. This has to due with the psychometrics [a big air conditioning engineer - word] and the use of outdoor air as part of the system instead of recirculating the air that's in the cabin.

One of our C34 skippers rigged up a coil with a fan behind it to heat the cabin when he was running the engine, much like the domestic hot water heater heat swap. In fact, if you're going to be doing much motoring, this may be a good idea for you in addition to whatever system you choose, since the heat's pretty much FREE when you're motoring and you are not using up diesel fuel for the main heating system. See: http://www.c34.org/projects/projects-cabin-heater.htm

We have one of those Force 10 kerosene heaters. I love the look. It simply doesn't work as a heating source, even with a fan above it. It's noisy. The burner is the same technology that is used in alcohol stoves, and this puppy requires me to haul around a jug of alcohol to preheat the burner to be able to light the pressurized kerosene. Just nutz!

We bought one of those catalytic heaters. Works great, but is only as effective as our 1500 watt electric heater, i.e., limited but gets the chill off, and just yesterday morning I used it and the trawler lamp. But it was only 48 degrees out, pretty warm actually. No sun, cloudy, overcast, so anything helped.

If it was my boat, and I've gone through this theorizing process myself, I'd go with a Webasto air furnace (with a muffler if they need one). Our "ductwork distribution" clearances on our C34s is very limited, and folks have gone "overboard" with clever solutions to the air ducting. The best one I heard was one skipper who said: "Why spend all that time and energy to hide the ducts?" and left the main branch in sight simply and easily supported underneath the medicine cabinet in the head: "Heck, when they're sittin' down in there it's behind them, and when they stand up it's below the cabinet and they can't see it either!" An elegant solution.

Drew's system is also elegant and his blog writeup is quite good. Downside compared to the air system is that it's only good for the saloon, not the other cabins. Another good choice for you.

 

[Roger Long]

You'll find the hot air heaters are much better for eliminating condensation than the hot water/coil units. This has to due with the psychometrics [a big air conditioning engineer - word] and the use of outdoor air as part of the system instead of recirculating the air that's in the cabin.

Part of my plan if I go with the Espar is to mount the fan coil unit in a locker with a louver or grill that I can close off where the cool air goes in. Right above this locker is a dorade vent. When I need to dry the boat out, I'll connect a short length of flexible duct between the vent and the locker. All heated air will thus be drawn from outside the boat. The boat won't get as warm but air leaking out through the other vent and companionway should dry things out.

Do you see any reason why this wouldn't work?

I was already figuring on visible ducts when I said they would be hard to run. My boat has an inner hull liner and lots of obstructions. The one thing I could do with an air unit is have a vent come out of the aft galley counter face just above floor level next to the companionway. This would set up a warm air flow forward right along the cabin floor. It would also make for warm feet while making morning coffee.

It seems though that an air system has got to be noisier since the burner fan noise is propagating right down the duct. Maybe it's worth another look though. A fan coil unit is going to make some noise as well and the fan would be a lot closer to where I would be sitting.

 

[Marco Garcia]

Espar are expensive in the US. I am looking at getting a used one. The UK used market seems to have more options as they also use them in cars.

http://shop.ebay.co.uk/?_from=R40&_trksid=m38&_nkw=Eberspacher+

 

[Les]

An addition: Stu is correct, those furnaces that bring in outside air to heat actually dry out the boat. As far as noise goes for the Webasto or the Espar, both have minimal noise inside the boat. Hot air coming out of the vents is no more then a forced air furnace at home. Sort of a light swoosh that you have to think about to hear. As far as the furnace itself (both brands), in past years the biggest noise in the boat has been the clicking of the fuel pump but you can eliminate that noise by hanging the pump portion with a wire tie instead of screwing it in the bulkhead. In the past few years, both companies have soundproofed their pumps so that it is just about impossible to hear the unit.

The biggest noise normally associated with both units is the exhaust sound. It is a bit like a jet engine. Those inside the boat really don't hear it but those sitting in a cockpit next to your boat do and it is annoying. That is why I recommend the muffler. However if you never tie up at a dock, then I suspect this part is not needed.

Also, since I have helped installed two Webasto hot air units, all you need is a three inch circular saw blade on your drill. You can lay out the tubing first and check your lockers as to where the tubing will go. I've not found a problem.

I also forgot to suggest that when installing either the Webasto or the Espar to put in a small diesel fuel filter to the furnace. Tap off your fuel tank (assuming you are diesel) and you have a nice, neat and warm boat ready to go.

One last thing I almost forgot. If you plan to buy your furnace (Espar) from overseas be aware that the fittings probably are standard in Europe but not the United States. The Taylor bulkhead heater (from England) that I had was a PITB for getting the right fittings that would not leak. At that time they had a different thread on their fittings. Check it out first.

 

[Roger Long]

As far as noise goes for the Webasto or the Espar, both have minimal noise inside the boat. Hot air coming out of the vents is no more then a forced air furnace at home. Sort of a light swoosh that you have to think about to hear.

Thanks. I'm thinking about an air unit again and it's quickly becoming a front runner. In a boat the size of mine, a duct shooting out along the floor from the back of the boat should warm the whole main cabin and I can get a duct that far easily. Way simpler installation without running hoses and wires to fan coil units forward in the boat.

No hot water but, the more I think about it, the more I realize that having hot water on demand is going to lead to more usage than I can afford in remote areas. Just the cold water in the hoses that I waste waiting for the hot to come will be significant. Not having to heat it on the stove will be a hard temptation to resist. I wouldn't have hot water with a forward cabin heater of the size I can fit in anyway.

I'm going to see if the lower price of an Espar Airtronic without all the gear associated with water circulations brings the cost down to something I can do this year. Much of the time, I won't be using heat and it would be nice not to have a huge chunk of the cabin devoted to a heater.

 

[Tedb]

I installed an Espar Airtronic D(iesel) 4 back in 2004. The system wasn 't inexpensive, paying about $2600 for the equipment and simple spares and another $500 to install it. I had a wall mounted propane heater that didn't do the job, created CO2 and condensation, and, if one wasn't careful, the propane tank solenoid heater would kill the house battery. The hardest part was figuring out how/where to install ductwork. In the end, the furnace was mounted in the aft starboard lazerette, with the main duct running forward. We fabricated a Fiberglas cover that ran from the aft bulkhead in the main cabin to the head bulkhead. Once it entered the head it split, one branch splitting again under the head sink. One small duct and grill directs heat behind the head, a second, full size one drops the heat to cabin sole level where it does a good job of heating the main cabin. The other branch that comes from the furnace is run behind the locker above the bureau, drops down and exits at floor level in the forward cabin. It is a little noisy when it starts because it runs at high speed until the main cabin head bulkhead thermostat is satisfied. We don't mind the minimal noise of the fan on low when we are below, and the exhaust, exiting through the transom is not bad.

Even in August, on Penobscot Bay waters, it gets a bit chilly and it's nice to break the chill. As we get to autumn, it becomes an imperative and has served us well. This past late summer it quit working and the final solution was to return it to Ocean Options in RI where they replaced the main circuit board, a task that cost about $700. It didn't get back to us (my fault by trying to have it repaired locally) until just before haul out in October, so we did little sailing and no cruising in the fall. One other benefit of the Espar is that I keep my boat in my yard, and if I want to work on it in winter, I just turn on the heater when I get my morning paper, and after coffee it is a pleasant place to work. We like it and would do it again! TedB

The propane Dickinson has a circulation fan that makes all the difference in the world. That being said, it will not heat you through the winter but does do a very nice job of knocking off the chill of autumn Maine. I have a buddy with an Espar installed on his Nonsuch 30. I'll see if I can get him to weigh in.
Re: deck stack - Charlie Noble is under the can you see in the photo. Charlie from Dickinson is not a terribly hardy fellow so I fashioned the cap so he wouldn't get messed up w/jib sheets & boarding seas etc. I have seen hardier ones, but for crossing the Gulf to NS it seems prudent to me to have Charlie in full battle dress.
Just remember to pull the cap before lighting the match! With propane it is actually not a safety issue because if you forget the cap, you get no draft, close the door, flame goes out, then you remember. Lighting solid fuel could give you some smoke.

 

[Stu Jackson]

No hot water but, the more I think about it, the more I realize that having hot water on demand is going to lead to more usage than I can afford in remote areas. Just the cold water in the hoses that I waste waiting for the hot to come will be significant. Not having to heat it on the stove will be a hard temptation to resist. I wouldn't have hot water with a forward cabin heater of the size I can fit in anyway.

No hot water: I think it's a conceptual issue of simple scheduling. I'm used to a morning shower at home. When we're sailing, we don't run the engine for hot water, or for charging for that matter, since it's a dumb thing to do. So, I take a shower when the water is hot, which is usually when we drop anchor at the next anchorage. At least I'm clean for cocktails! If we stay at anchor and I need a shower (the crew always lets me know!), I'll heat up some hot water on the stove and use the solar shower.

Cold water in hoses: Most hoses are 3/4 inch. Checking my engineering tables, that's all of 0.027 gallons per foot of pipe, so ten feet of piping would use up 0.27 or a quarter of a gallon (a quart or a liter or a litre). With this info, you can figure out just how much water is in your piping based on its length. I've used the Scanvik water wand to minimize water use, and judiciously use the cold water first, good for getting the soap ON, while the hot water is good for getting it OFF.

You're right, the basic trade off is hot water compared to having a wet cabin when it's cold out. Guess which choice makes the most sense?