Blue Water Capable Sailboat

Status
Not open for further replies.
Jun 19, 2007
77
- - Long Beach, CA
Sans Philosophie?

Sailboat designs are based in a philosophy about what works or should work for the task at hand; eventually confirmed or not by actually testing on the water. Explanations of design are best explained and understood by revealing the ideas behind them. The sea is the sea; it does what it does. If you want to be out in it much, then you need to understand the boat you're in. No apologies!! BEO
 
P

Phil

Yep

Yep, with the proper up grades Isn't that what they do, up grade? I am pretty sure thay aren't running Camaros or Charger or whatever off of the show room floor. They properly modify them for the task. Thats my point. Without proper modification and preparation no boat is ready for bluewater. Depending how its done a lesser boat can be more capable. I certianly don't mean this to be philosphical, just factual. Would you feel comfortable taking ownership of a brand new stock Cabo Rico or Island Packet on Monday and take off for the Med on Tuesday or Wensday? I hope not.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,709
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Sorry Phil...

Sorry Phil but this quote is flat out dangerous and very misleading. "A Catalina 32 is capable in the right hands." Sorry Peter Blake, Dodge Morgan et al. could not sail an un-modified, structurally, Catalina 320 through the roaring forties or across the pond, without dramatic issues, unless the weather was freakishly calm. I have owned three Catalina's and can tell you they are NOT well suited to 50 knots & 30 foot seas! While they are perfectly fine coastal cruisers they are not designed or built heartily enough to handle adverse conditions for days on end. The rudder tube design alone would be enough to dissuade a "smart and capable captain" from taking a C-320 across the pond. Your quote actually contradicts its self! Someone with the skill and knowledge would never do as you say because they would be smart enough not to. Having sailed on many, many blue water capable boats such as Hinckley's, Swan's, Pacific Seacraft's and Passports I can assure you there is nothing a capable captain can do short of re-designing the hull, rudder tube, rig, chain plates, hatches, bulkheads, ports and a plethora of other items to make a Catalina ready for 40+ knots and 30+ foot seas which is what you must expect if heading out into the true blue. When I was a kid in the I was on board a Hinckley B-40 crossing from the Cape to Halifax NS when we encountered a relatively mild Nor Easter. It blew for 14 hours at well over 40 knots building the seas to 25+ feet and I can assure you there is NO Catalina that would have handled that weather like the B-40 did capable captain or not! Trust me things like actually tabbing the bulkheads in DOES matter. Upgrading water, electrical radar etc. all do NOTHING if your hull, rig or steering can't handle the seas. Have you actually seen how Catalina water tanks are secured to the hull or the fuel tank? I can tell you it's down right scary of you ewere to even think about hitting 15 foot seas let alone 30+! Have you seen how this is done on a Morris, Swan, Hinckley, Shannon etc.??? Phil until you have REALLY spent time in ROUGH conditions, hundreds if not thousands of miles from land, please don't mislead folks and have them think they can hop in their 320 and head for the Azores if they have tweaked th electrical, H20 and added radar & feel they are "capable". Sailing in 40 knots on the BAY is NOT the same as a thousand miles of fetch with 40+ knots building seas to well over 25 feet with very short wave periods and nearly vertical faces you literally fall off of. How do you think that 320 would handle falling down the face of a 25 foot breaker and hitting the cement like bottom only to have thousands of gallons of green water wash away your HUGE hatch boards and fill your cabin because of your HUGE hatch board opening???
 
Jun 19, 2007
77
- - Long Beach, CA
Not me

I wouldn't go across the San Pedro Channel (22 n.mi.) in a "stock boat" right out of the boat show, of any caliber. BEO
 
C

Chris

Well said Mainesail

and to add to that, as John Vigor said repeatedly, "Imagine the boat upside down. How will it behave? What will happen to all the interior 'stuff'?"
 

Jim

.
May 21, 2007
775
Catalina 36 MK II NJ
Phil, I think you have the question wrong but

I would reather go with the "40' new Passport off the shelf with a guy who sailing experience" then an experienced captain in a Catalina 22! Yes I would feel safer and have a much more comforable ride until we got lost at sea! I can navagate as long as the GPS works! Here the question, "What makes a sailboat "blue water" capable? " I good captain could easily answer the questions.
 
P

Phil

Very Good

Main Sail I don't think I suggested for any one to head accross the Atlantic in a Catalina 320. You don't think it hasn't been done? A guy in a 36 Catalina out of Alaska has been all over the world, it is his home. He is still alive. I am thinking he may have a clue as to what he is doing. Evidently you and he don't see eye to eye on risk assement. Why is it the first thing everyone wants to do when they talk about the ocean is drive a small boat into 30' seas with 50knot winds? "Your quote actually contradicts its self! Someone with the skill and knowledge would never do as you say because they would be smart enough not to" Thank you, excatly, the captain would hopefully assess all parts of the equation. And what did I say that someone, "would be smart enough not to do"? If all you want is a silly fest with extremes why not talk about a 22' Capri going to Sumatra during Cyclone season. Going to sea is always risky and yes I have been in stuff I don't want to ever be in again, looking below to make sure we were still floating and everyone wondering if we would make it through. As far as the 25foot wave coming into the cabin, as the captain, I am not clear as to why my hatch boards wouldn't be closed with that kind of weather. I wouldn't want to misled anyone so let me say this, if I were going to drive into a hurricane I would want to be in a Pacific SeaCraft and hopefuly someone brought the epirb, liferaft, storm sail, parachute, drogue, instructions on how to heave to, lifelines, strobes and another $50000 worth of equipment I haven't mentioned yet. I am sorry I miunderstood to question. Wsimpson pick youself up a Pacific SeaCraft and have at it, evidently you'll be fine, the boat knows what its doing. Yea that might have been a little sarcastic.
 
Nov 27, 2005
163
- - West Des Moines, Iowa
Maine Sail those conditions can be avoided

If you are not a slave to a schedule you can avoid a lot of those horrendous conditions. Here is a family that say they circumnavigated the glode and yet never sailed in anything higher than 35kts winds! (Thats six-and-a-half year, 56 country, 40,000 mile circumnavigation ) http://www.chasingsunsetsthebook.com/index.asp That is not as unusual as it sounds. Read many accounts of sailors circumnavigating and most can count the number of times they hit truly terrible conditions that lasted more than a sort while on one hand. They say 95 % of the time they are in the doldrums (where tankage becomes a much bigger issue for off shore boat) I will agree when the "You Know What" really hits the fan I'd rather be in an overbuilt tank like a Westsnail over a production boat, but sailing around the world does not mean that you have to see that kind of weather. With todays weather tracking capabilities its much . If you decide to sail into storm that last more than 24 hours, then pick the "tanks" oops I mean overbuilt boats. Would a Hunter, Beneteau or Catalina be my first choice for a circumnavigation? No. Would I take a Hunter, Beneteau or Catalina on a circumnavigation for $1 million? Give unlimited amount of time to complete the trip, Yes.
 
Jun 12, 2004
1,181
Allied Mistress 39 Ketch Kemah,Tx.
And another thing

Add to the list of what makes a sailboat "blue water" capable....a fairly large amount of tankage for fuel and water. Im sure that someone at some time in history clung onto a log and drifted a gazillion miles with no food and water and lived. This does not make the log 'blue water capable'. We cannot use the rare occasion as the norm. Just because people survive some really weird stuff, does not neccessarily make it the everyday thing to do. I saw on a TV show one time when a man went sky diving and his chute didnt open. I cant remember how many thousands of feet he fell and lived. This does not mean that you can jump from an airplane and survive because someone else's freak luck did it. You can never convince me that my Chevette could ever become Indy or Datona capable no matter how much you upgrade. Unless of course, it upgraded to never be anything like it started out to be. At that point it is not an upgrade, its a complete transformation.
 
Jun 19, 2007
77
- - Long Beach, CA
Avoidance is all relative

I've heard it said many times--"Your only 'control' over the weather is picking the conditions you leave in." Can one really avoid bad weather that is maybe a day or two away at most, perhaps only hours, when you're 600 n.mi. or more from anywhere? No. If you're there, you catch it. If you have a good boat and a good crew, you get through it. It doesn't really matter all that much what you're doing the other 95% of the time, does it? There is also the matter of collisions and groundings, which even a superb skipper can suffer. You hit something going 7 knot or more in a Catalina does it break something critical on the boat? Skill or not, ...t happens. Remember Coyote? BEO
 
Jun 7, 2007
875
Pearson- 323- Mobile,Al
Blue water Captain???

IMHO it takes a lot more skill to coastal sail than it does to cross oceans. Leave Charleston headed for England...there ain't a lot to hit. Sail from Bahamas to South America...coastal by most definitons..there is a lot to hit. Even sailing around the Gulf of Mexico Almost any idiot with a GPS and a reasonable boat at the right time of year can sail from Pensacola to Tampa...not a lot to hit. But to sail from Biloxi around the coast to Tampa going in and out of the various inlets that takes some ability...lots to hit. A coastal sailer has to be better to stay off the beach..or worse.
 
Jun 19, 2007
77
- - Long Beach, CA
Skippering along the coast, etc.

Actually, MoonSailer, it's a good point, I think. If you've done much reading of seafaring accounts, you'll find that some good blue-water boats can get places intact even without a skipper or any crew aboard. A Westsail 32 could probably get half-way around the world with nobody aboard until it smashed into a coastline somewhere, and even then you might be able to pull it off and send it on its way, so I've heard. In the 1800's, our merchant sailors would encounter Japanese fishing vessels blowing across from Asia with no crew, or a starved dead crew--the vessels still intact and heading for the N. California coast. Coastal piloting is definitely a big challenge and requires a lot of skill, and I don't think a boat would find its way along the FL coast very far without a good skipper at the helm! BEO
 
Jun 12, 2004
1,181
Allied Mistress 39 Ketch Kemah,Tx.
What am I not understaanding here?

From the last few replies I can deduce that I am safer on an ocean voyage to Bermuda with an experienced Florida coastal cruiser on a Mac 22 (upgraded of course) than I would be with an exerienced cruising capt on a Pacific Seacraft 37? The difference being the Capt? An experienced coastal cruising Capt? Man, Im really confused LOL Tony B
 
Jun 19, 2007
77
- - Long Beach, CA
It's simple

If you're out to sea in a Pacific SeaCraft and a storm comes, you and the skipper go below and ride out the storm. If the boat rolls over a couple of times, no problem. Skipper does nothing except hold on with you or to you. If you're going to Bermuda in a Mac 22 (upgraded of course) with a FL coastal pilot and no big storms come along, the FL pilot gets you in without running aground. No problem! Is that better? BEO
 
B

Benny

T o n y, y o u m i s s e d t h e p o i n t,

a Pacific Seacraft 37 in the hands of a newby would not be blue water capable. If safety is the only consideration try the "Empress of the Seas".
 
Jun 12, 2004
1,181
Allied Mistress 39 Ketch Kemah,Tx.
Nooooooooooooo

How come the coastal cruiser in the Mac 22 didnt hit any storms. In order to make this fair, we both left at the same time and we both heard the same 'good' weather forecasts and obviously, both capt's agreed to leave at the same time. Maybe you have a crystal ball and a guarantee that no one will ever hit bad weather because they believed the weather forecast. Tony B
 
Jun 12, 2004
1,181
Allied Mistress 39 Ketch Kemah,Tx.
Benny, you missed the point..

The original question was about the boat , not the capt. No where in the post did he ask about a capt. BTW, its becomming obvious by now that all of us have way too much time on our hands. Am I the only one at work? Tony B
 
Jun 12, 2004
1,181
Allied Mistress 39 Ketch Kemah,Tx.
BTW wsimpson....

I hope we havent scared you away. Most of us are bored and are just having fun passing time in a friendy dispute...... Sooooooooooo.......wsimpson, can you clear this up for us? Tony B
 
Status
Not open for further replies.