Blue Water Capable Sailboat

[sailaway78]

A lot still comes down to the skipper

Something not really touched on in this discussion is the ability/knowledge/experience of a skipper.While there is a rating system of sorts for boats and boat builders, there is no such thing for skippers. I'm not talking capt's. liscense or charter certification here. What you can not measure or regulate is common sense, stupidity, confidence, over confidence. We have all seen or heard of some really stupid things on the water. There have been many discussions on this board concerning stand on-give way vessels, when encountering a large ship. Anyone with common sense knows that when that big mother is coming at you, get the hell out of the way, but some seem to think as long as they are the stand on vessel, just maintain course and let the big boy get out of your way. Some seem to think that if you add enough electronic do dads, that's you can get through anything. So just like the boats being discussed, some are true blue water sailors, and some should never venture offshore, and sad to say, some should stay on dry land.

 

[Bavaria 38E Owner]

More on Categories--FYI

Design categories (as in the amended Directive)Category A - Ocean: Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave heights of 4m and above but excluding abnormal conditions, and vessels largely self-sufficient.Category B - Offshore: Designed for offshore voyages where conditions up to, and including, wind force 8 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 4m may be experienced.Category C - Inshore: Designed for voyages in coastal waters, large bays, estuaries, lakes and rivers where conditions up to, and including, wind force 6 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 2m may beexperienced.Category D - Sheltered: Designed for voyages on sheltered coastal waters, small bays, small lakes, rivers and canals where conditions up to, and including, wind force 4 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 0.3m may be experienced, with occasional waves of 0.5m maximum height, for example from passing vessels.Craft in each Category must be designed and constructed to withstand these parameters in respect of stability, buoyancy, and other relevant essential requirements listed, and to have good handling characteristics.

 

[Ross]

Many of us followed the efforts of Ken Barnes

and Donna Lange in the southern ocean near Chile. I think that it is plain that years of experience don't substitute for shear determination. In one case the skipper watched his boat abuse its self and did very little to stop the chafe and wear and tear. In the other case the skipper would stay awake for three days to watch over and care for the boat. Mental strength and endurance will make up for many short comings in both vessel and crew experience.

 

[Tom S]

Something not really touched on in this discussion

????? Nice and Easy what thread are you reading? About half the posted reply's talked about how the skippers capabilities can overcome a lesser boat or how an unknowledgable person can take the best Blue Water cruising boat and have disasterous results.

 

[Jim]

Ross take a side

first it the boat has to be a Blue Water boat then next it the Captain and crew that makes a Blue Water Boat.Which is it? Does the boat make the boat or is it the crew that makes the boat?I say a robot can sail a boat if it is programmed to do it. As a matter of fact they have robot boats. The Captain can be taken 100% out of the picture!It is the construction that sets some boats apart from other boats. There is no body that can tell that a Hunter or Catalina is a strong as a Blue Water Boat like the Hans Christian or Pacific Seacraft!

 

[Bavaria 38E Owner]

Devils and Details of the ISO Specifications

I tracked down some of the particulars of category ratings. It would take a long time to go through all of it; see website link for your own fun! In any event, it all looks rather well considered. Regarding cockpit drains, all categories have to drain within 5 min maximum (I think that's a long time when you have seas rolling over on periods of seconds, perhaps); cockpits have to drain 90% at certain heel angles, otherwise 98%; there have to be two drains; cross-sectional area of the drain openings in squared meters has to be at least 5% of the cockpit volume in cubed meters. Difference between "A" and "B" on cockpit drains is the height of the cockpit sole above the weighted waterline; at least 15 cm for "A"; at least 10 cm for "B". Interesting.BEOhttp://www.ibinews.com/ibinews/ebb/tech_9.html#

 

[MoonSailer]

It's the Captain

In a good boat a captain will switch on his self steering and go below for some good brandy when he hears that a gale is approaching. The same good skipper in his Catalina 22 swing keel would bend over and kiss his A$$ goodby. The good captain knows what to expect out of his boat..... BTW wasn't the Captain of the Exxon Valdez very experienced???? The vision of some salt dried superman holding his Hunter 27 together through sheer will for several days during a gale is stupid. Just sailing overnight without sleep in about 20 kts left me pretty well exhausted. Some friends got caught between two storms off the west coast of Florida for a little over two days. They were in a Morgan 33 and said they were pretty well exhausted. The autopilot went out and they had to hand steer most of the time. He also said that the autopilot couldn't handle the conditions even if it was working. Some would consider a Morgan 33 bluewater. They never felt that the boat was in danger they were just very tired. One would get out of the bunk while the other one fell into the bunk. ....But they probably were more tired after a few nights at Key West... fish gotta swim!!!

 

[Bavaria 38E Owner]

Hunter used to make blue-water boats

The Luhrs-designed Hunter 54 probably fits into this nebulous realm between your heavily-built but slow HC's; probably over-built (but wonderful to be in) Shannons, the small pocket cruisers, and what we're more-or-less discussing as medium-displacement coastal cruisers that we sometimes take to sea. Deck-stepped mast, absolutely huge cockpit, but with low freeboard and a very narrow beam (about 12 1/2 feet), and fast!! Here, you really do need a SKIPPER because no weekender from the (otherwise) Hunter dock-side dinning club, I think, would be able to get this boat going and keep it going on the high seas. (Sorry). Anybody know this boat?BEO

 

[sailaway78]

Read it again

Maybe I wasn't very clear, but the point was that you can have standards for boats but there is no way to measure, or regulate things such as stupidity, over confidence etc. And moonsailor is correct in mentioning fatigue. 24 hours at the helm in bad weather is a killer. We got caught in a front between Clearwater and Appalachicola. Trip took over 24 hours, and when we got in I was at the point of total exhaustion. When this tired, mistakes can and will happen. No matter how much experience one has.

 

[Ross]

Jim, If there is a conflict here then I guess

you need to define it . Because I stated that a strong well built boat is desireable but in the hands of a neglectful crew it will rapidly deteriorate, whereas a moderately good boat in the hands of a dedicated, skilled and determined crew can stand a better chance of coming thru any stretch of bad weather. Far too many boats have been abandoned by their crews and found still floating and in reasonably good condition weeks later.

 

[Jim]

Ok, it the Captain

because the Captain is the boat, even if he is a robot! The captain is responsible for the entire boat. If he takes a production boat into blue water and loses the craft then it is the Captain's fault. No doubt about that! He took the boat far offshore and therefore it was his fault. He should have known the limitations of his vessel. Everyone who lost a love one can now sue the Captain's estate because he didn't know what he was doing. He didn't know he owned a coastal cruiser and not a blue water boat! Good Point! I thought everyone know the difference between a coastal cruiser and a blue water vessel. There seems to be a lot of Captains that need to read more boats like Ross did. Good work Ross!

 

[Ross]

Jim , Do I detect a note of sarcasm here?

If you are seeking conflict then you're are hunting on sterile ground.

 

[Bill Roosa]

Nice to have stuff for blue water sailing

Assuming you don't have a racer and your passages will be up to a few weeks the following are very handy to have on your (now blue water) boat.Enough storage for the foodEnough fresh water or a way to procure fresh water while underwayEnough fuel to recharge the batteries and a reserve should you need to motorA weather faxA book on how to read weather faxesA marine VHF and SSB radioGood bright nav lightsA full complement of safety gear and a place to put itSextant, and the associated books, manuals, charts etcAuto pilot or wind vane steeringTools to repair everythingOther nice to have but not criticalRadarGPS/ploterHam radioWind, depth and speed instrumentsCritical things that you absolutely must haveThe common sense to keep yourself out of troubleThe common sense to get yourself out of troubleNote to the group: a 30' or less boat will have a hard time providing enough storage space-tankage to make going out onto the big blue comfortable. yes it can be done but you will be doing the boating equivalent of living in a closet.

 

[Bavaria 38E Owner]

One more thing to bring?

Ample (non-technical) reading material is also good to have.BEO

 

[Jim]

Re: Do I detect a note of sarcasm here?

No, the Captain is the boat. I was kind of wrong and admit it! The captain is only as good as the boat and vice versa.

 

[Jim]

Re A book on how to read weather faxes

I would understand weather charts before you go. This is not something you lrean on the way out of the inlet.

 

[Bavaria 38E Owner]

How hard is it?

Wind blows CW around highs, CCW around lows, closeness of lines (isobars)= intensity. Is there more?BEO

 

[sailaway78]

Bill I strongly disagree

Not necessarily with your list of necessary items, but most certainly with your pecking order. Food water and fuel is a no brainer of course. But the other things, I think you have sort of reversed. I would put the GPS, radar and at least the depth instruments at the top of the list, right under food, water and fuel. Certainly way up there before Ham/SSB. And calling a depth instrument a nice but unnecessary option. Give me a break. How many boats do you know of that don't have a good, working depth instrument of some kind, and how many have SSB/Ham. I can guarantee you that if you sailed one time off the Texas/Louisiana coast at night, radar would be at the top of your list. I am not saying that these items you listed are not nice to have, or should not be aboard. You just have the order of importance a little bit topsy turvey.

 

[Jeff]

The skipper

a good one, that is

 

[Bavaria 38E Owner]

Depth Instruments

I have to partly agree; sailing around coastlines or islands, especially foreign ones, without a depth instrument is not a great idea, in my opinion. It's not much use on the "blue water", but then neither really is RADAR. I think RADAR would be the last item I would spend money on, if I had any left by the time I left. I sailed up and down the Gulf coast of FL for more than 11 years in a Pearson 30 with no RADAR or GPS; a pair of binoculars, a chart, and a depth finder, was it. The boat I have now came with RADAR; I mostly use it to get my range to the megacontainer ships that I have to cross in the traffic lanes; but it's only a luxury. My pair of 7x50 Polaris binoculars are much more useful to me at night than RADAR.BEO