Blue Water Capable Sailboat

[sailaway78]

Had to chime in with my .02

I would rather be far offshore with experience than without. I would rather be far offshore in a real blue water boat than a coastal cruiser. There is a reason that a Pacific Seacraft weighs much more than a Catalina. But the most correct statement made on this post so far, is what are you going to do with the boat. If your intentions are to travel far and wide on open ocean, then you can find a much better boat for the job than a Catalina. If you are planning on short offshore hops, and coastal cruising, then that same Catalina would be hard to beat. As stated, the Chevette is not going to win at Indy, but the Indy car ain't going to run you to the 7/11 store. There is a big difference, and there is a reason for that difference.

 

[Phil]

Wait

Can't it be a Sunfish, yellow. Small storm. Dennis Conner as capt. A Gps with no extra batteries and 2 bottles of water, 16oz,Poland Springs?

 

[Benny]

If you are at work you are excused.

Been there.

 

[sailortonyb Allied Mis]

Phil..

What !!!!! No rum???????????Thats un-American. Tony B

 

[Maine Sail]

Not always true..

"Maine Sail those conditions can be avoided" Old salt this is not always true! Our Nor Easter basically came out of nowhere created by two fronts that were in and of themselves nothing. The weather forecasting today is really not a hell of a lot better than is was back then we just have more computer modeling. Our trip was forecast for S. Westerlies between 5 & 20 knots and it turned into a 14 hour Nor Easter. Many people have indeed cruised and had very good luck with weather windows but you can't count on it at all especially when your sailing around South America, the North Atlantic or the North Pacific among others or crossing the pond.

 

[Ross]

I was just reading Storm Tactics by

Lyn and Larry Pardey. They have sailed and survived many storms at sea and among the many features that they recommend is a small cockpit with large drains. Small is defined as not holding more weight in water than the normal cockpit crew weight. A companionway that is completely above the level of a full cockpit so that no water would flood below. All deck hatches should be on the centerline so that during a knockdown they are less likely to be breached. Small windows for the same reason and because they compromize the strength of the cabin top. Tiller steering or the means to attach a tiller for on deck steering. A very strong standing rig any two of the shrouds or stays should be strong enough to lift the entire boat. The list continues for two full pages. The method of attaching the keel is a subject that they give a lot of attention. Spade rudders are not on their list of favorites.

 

[Waffle]

RE:conditions can be avoided

This is a unexperience captain statement!

 

[Waffle]

Re:I was just reading Storm Tactics by

Ross, very true! A small cockpit does not allow much water in to fill it and swamp the boat! You will find most Blue Water boats have smaller cockpits and production boats have larger ones better for say sailing or weekending.

 

[sailaway78]

Avoiding weather, Where you been

Old Salt,Not sure where you get your info. Your from this area of the Gulf and you should know better. You can't depend on any weather forecast more than one day out, two at the most. And many times not even for 24 hours. If you doubt this, check any weather forecast for a week ahead, and then wait and see how accurate it is. I left Clearwater heading to Appalachicola last year. Forecast was for really good weather until late Thursday afternoon, when a front was due to come through. Left Clearwater early Wed. morning, figuring we had plenty of time to make Appalachicola before the front came through. WRONG 3 AM Thurs. morning we got blasted. At least 12 hours before the weather was supposed to get there. No prudent sailor will knowingly sail into bad weather if he can possibly avoid it, and no prudent sailor will go out unprepaired for it.

 

[sailaway78]

wsimpson

Please do not take this as a slap at your boat, or at you. But if you were in a round about way asking if your Hunter 27 was a blue water capable boat, the truthful answer is no it isn't. It is a good coastal cruiser, and if your capable you can more than likely take it over the Bahamas without any problems, if you watch the weather closely. But it is not a blue water boat.

 

[GeorgeB., s/v Freya]

Beauty Contest

These types of discussions always boil down to some sort of subjective beauty contest, often reflecting the purchasing bias of the persons involved. The original question bears repeating. “What makes a sailboat "blue water" capable?” This does not necessarily mean “ocean ready” or “long distance cruising desirable”, or even “I wouldn’t be caught dead in one” etc. Merely, is it "capable"? About the only thing that might be considered empirical in regards to this discussion might be the International Marine Certification (IC) ratings which every boat new boat built or sold in Europe must be rated against. The IC rating “A” is for “ocean” which has criteria of winds in excess of 40 kts, and seas greater than 13 ft. I have had the opportunity to correspond with a fellow from Europe who built a custom racer-cruiser and he described the certification process as being pretty rigorous. If you allow this as the baseline criteria, then you can hold your beauty pageant and build your ranking order.In the for what it’s worth department, my boat is rated IC “A” and have sailed it in the conditions proscribed without any ill effect. Heck, my boat has broached, been pooped, had boarding waves and even stuffed one once (but not all at one time mind you). Never had any tabbing rip out, nor did the water tanks break free or had loose cannons roll across the gun deck. I did have a T-900 halyard break once – does that mean Tecnora isn’t ocean capable? Call me crazy, lucky or just your typical Northern Californian sailor. Now for the beauty pageant rankings, my wife wants either a Sabre 40, Valiant 40, Crealock 40, or a Catalina 42 (note the 40 foot theme here). I, on the other hand would be perfectly happy in a J 40, Farr 39 or a “cruised out” Aerodyne 38.

 

[Jim]

Re: Beauty Contest

The IC rating “A” is for “ocean” is kinf of meaningless rating to me. The criteria of winds in excess of 40 kts, and seas greater than 13 ft to me means close to shore coastal cruiser.I have seen thunder storm wind sheer rip a bimni right off the boat. I know what is like to have to sit down to pee because your dropping off 13 foot wave. I not taking my Catalina out into those conditions, where under IC rating “A” rating I should be fine! You have to face one important fact, it gets a lot rougher than 40 kts, and seas greater than 13 out there!Blue water means outside of a safe envelope. Where you can't reach a safe harbor if a storm comes up and catches you off guard.

 

[Bavaria 38E Owner]

What the IC rating really says

Hello All,I know something about the IC rating b/c I have one of those European boats, plus I have the manual right in front of me. Category A means.. "High Seas. This design category requires the yacht to be suited to extensive cruises with wind velocities of more than 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave heights above 4 meters..." You might all recall that Beaufort 8 means gale conditions; winds 34-40 kts, seas 18-25 ft. So, wave heights of 13 ft appear to be the threshold value to enter the Category "A" rating. That said, I can say that whereas the Bavaria is quite well constructed in several aspects, it also contains a few identifable faults that would not go well with large boarding seas, or being tossed over on its side by a breaking wave. In my mind at 16,000 lbs displacement, with a deck-stepped mast, large cockpit with small scuppers, acrylic port lights with plastic dogs, it's basically an upgraded coastal cruiser that one might nevertheless run to Hawaii during summer.BEO

 

[gpd955]

Good Old Article

In the current issue of Good Old Boat. The article is part one of a "three part series on selecting the right sailboat for extensive passagemaking". It is by Beth Leonard, author of "The Voyager's Handbook".It basically starts out (Part One) comparing types of boats, advantages and disadvantages of each, costs, etc. It is an enlightening article and I will be putting it aside for when we're preparing for retirement and the big purchase.You can probably get a copy at a local chandelery.

 

[Old Salt]

Some have misinterpreted what I wrote

I probably wasn't clear enough. I didn't mean to infer that you can't and won't hit bad weather . What I was refering to is if you only sail at times and areas that are well known not be to be the 'Storm Season' you most likely won't hit EXTENDED bad weather. Not that you won't hit bad weather and that bad weather is unavoidable. I am not talking about the North Atlantic in Winter or roaring 40's off season.I'm also not saying one should do it in a Mac 22 but even a moderate "Benuterlina" in decent condition isn't going to fall apart in a 1/2 day storm. I will agree that it wont be in as good a condition after a few years out there compared to a more ruggedly built boat Here is another young couple (28 years old) and they just did a circumnavation which I followed. They followed well know weather times to travel in certain parts of the country. I don't recall any terrible long periods of heavy storm conditions. http://www.bumfuzzle.com/Pages/2003/2003_10.htmlSo to those that read what I wrote avoiding bad weather as completely avoiding bad weather thats not what I meant. Though it has been shown that many conservative sailors can keep the period of bad weather down to a manageable minimum.

 

[sailaway78]

IC rating of " A "

As BEO says, I can't place much value in such a thing as this. Hell if you could assure me that my little 28' S2 would never ever get into anything worse than 40 knots and 15' seas, I would be ready to go anywhere in the world. This thing sounds more to me like a CYA deal, so manufacturers can say it's built to standards. It is certainly not a standard I would want to rely on when crossing oceans. I would be willing to bet that many, if not most, on this site have been in 40 knots or more, and 15' seas. Probably on more than one occasion. I certainly have. I've been in 40 knots or more of wind in the Chesapeake, Mississippi Sound, offshore in the Gulf, in S.Texas bays, and more places than that but my mind is slipping. Crossed the Gulf in TonyB's 39' Allied in 8 footers and we were having gormet meals. 40knots is close to normal for some areas of far S.Texas. That wouldn't scare me a bit in a decent condition Catalina or Hunter 30 footer. So if were going to have some standard by which to measure the true offshore, blue water boat, lets have some that are realistic.

 

[Bavaria 38E Owner]

Standards and CYA

I have to agree; put a label on it, and suddenly you have a High Seas Yacht that can survive a gale (at minimum). I like the British-made Moody 42; if you want a great blue-water cruiser that looks good and sails well, that's the boat; you don't need an IC rating for that boat; it's all evident.BEO

 

[Tom S]

The EC Ratings have more to do with features

that a boat has to have implemented and less to do with Scantlings and how bulkheads are tabbed to a hull or how 'bombproof' the boat is. (BTW its more specifically Recreational Craft Directive, 94/25/EC)Take for instance to be rated class A, a boat must have opening ports that one can crawl out of in every cabin and room on a boat (if the boat turns turtle). Another thing that a class A rated boat must have is line lines a certain height, How quickly a cockpit would drain, scuppers, etc etc etc . I does have some minimun static stability requirements, but btrangely enough Documentation and User manuals for a boat are required to pass the CE ratings also. Most of the things that make a Class A rated boat over a Class B for instance are features. There are sections that discuss build and I have read them in the past and they are mostly discussing materials and methods , not that a hull is built like a brick house, etc etc. Take a look at the website below it will give some indications of what the ratings are looking for.http://www.rcdweb.com/The way I view an the EC classification ratings are that a rating of "A" is the absolute minimun I would look for in a boat if I was taking it into the ocean. Its only a baseline, and by no means the be all and end all that I would look for in a blue water boat. Still I applaud the agency for coming up with something. Before this anybody could say a boat was ocean worthy when you might only want to take in out in a protected lake.(PS I think this EC directive came out of the tragedy that happened from the '79 Fastnet race where many boats had almost dangerous features, even though many were well built)

 

[Buck2796]

WELL ,

People never seem to tire of rehashing this subject every few months. The "only go out to sea in a 'bombproof' boat" camp vs. the " my Mac 25 is 'blue water' capable (if I can carry enough gas to plane at 30 kts to Bermuda or Hawaii in a day or 2)" camp.But, slightly more seriously, I agree with old salt ... as long as you stay within 25 deg, N/S, and away from hurricaine seasons, rarely does one encounter much more than a squall line, etc., even in open ocean. Many people DO sail small boats across these oceans. (Go out to Tahiti and see what people have sailed out there in; you probably wouldn't try to day sail some of their boats out of your marina).  Above 25degrees, I agree with Nice N Easy, etc. You may, and probable will encounter harsh gale conditions. Crossing oceans at higher lattitudes in small boats (regardless of how bombproof) is often unpleasant and, regardless of the boat, sometimes life threatening.My bottom line... for what its worth... sail the tropics, (downwind).... it's always bikini weather  N (or S) of 25degrees, go to weather across any ocean... in a 747.

 

[George B., s/v Freya]

Trade Associations

Alright, the discussion is starting to move along a more empirical line. So we can agree that there are several trade (and one governmental) organizations that have set down some sort of criteria to measure boats against. We can argue all day long if the standard is too low. (I’d like to think that the Europeans would want the standard to be high enough to keep American boat builders out of their market.) The RYA (British Marine Federation) website is locked but its title page has the look and feel of AYBC’s website. Perhaps someone here who is a member of that trade association can copy a couple of snippets of pertinent data for us to see. Interestingly enough, the Recreational Craft Directive, 94/25/EC that was cited in a previous post IS the governing document to the International Marine Certification (IC). (Annex A cites the classifications and their criteria for example). More importantly, as it is EU law, and not just a trade association guideline, it is public and posted and you can read it (in four languages even). Mind you, it is about as exiting as reading anything out of our own congressional record. And furthermore, it constantly refers to numerous ISO specs so perhaps someone here with loads of time on their hands could research the individual specs and report back. Me, I’m pretty satisfied that this is some sort of minimal objective criteria. Oh, by the way, my boat’s certification is CATAL005, what’s yours? Unfortunately, (to bring this back on topic) the Europeans give the Hunter 27x a “B” rating. The Hunter 34 that recently went across the Atlantic is unrated (as is the 27).Several people are referring to “bomb proof” as being related to blue water capable. Don’t really understand the reference. Are we talking about 500# Mk48’s or IEDs or what? And what do they have to do with sailing?