Best sailing autopilot?

jviss · Apr 27, 2023

jssailem said:
WOW the B & G H-5000 looks nice... I started looking at what appeared to be a basic H5000 on a $40,000 sailboat.

H5000 Graphic Display $1199

B&G Hydraulic Ram - RAM-T1-12V $2199

B&G Precision-9 Compass $699

B&G RF 25N Rotary Rudder Sensor $349

Then I learned this was just the beginning... I am guessing the costs to be close if not more than $10 Boat Bucks.
Here is the B&G Example of a H5000 system. I am sure you can cut and paste some of the units. But if you are talking a highly sensitive system.

H5000 system example
An example of a typical H5000 system. At the centre of the system is the Central Processor Unit (CPU). All sensor information is fed back to the CPU and can be easily controlled and configured via the Graphic Display or webserver.
View attachment 215040

Yea, these things can be expensive.

dlochner · Apr 27, 2023

John Haries over on Attainable Adventure Cruising has recently published a couple of articles on tuning an AP to steer better and more efficiently. Most of the information is behind a paywall which is pretty modestly priced. John has an extensive history with cruising in high latitudes and his opinions and advice are valued by leaders in the field.

How To Tune an Autopilot to Steer Better—Part 1

We can make a huge difference to comfort, speed, and electrical use by manually adjusting our autopilots.

www.morganscloud.com

jviss · Apr 27, 2023

dlochner said:
John Haries over on Attainable Adventure Cruising has recently published a couple of articles on tuning an AP to steer better and more efficiently. Most of the information is behind a paywall which is pretty modestly priced. John has an extensive history with cruising in high latitudes and his opinions and advice are valued by leaders in the field.

How To Tune an Autopilot to Steer Better—Part 1

We can make a huge difference to comfort, speed, and electrical use by manually adjusting our autopilots.

www.morganscloud.com

Thanks Dave, reading it now. I would like to know, though, do I have a "deeply stupid AP," or a smart one, or even one that's a little bit smart? Mine's the Simrad AC42 computer with the RC42 rate compass, and two AP24 control heads (I can also control the AP from the Zeus2 MFDs).

jviss · Apr 27, 2023

dlochner said:
John Haries over on Attainable Adventure Cruising has recently published a couple of articles on tuning an AP to steer better and more efficiently. Most of the information is behind a paywall which is pretty modestly priced. John has an extensive history with cruising in high latitudes and his opinions and advice are valued by leaders in the field.

How To Tune an Autopilot to Steer Better—Part 1

We can make a huge difference to comfort, speed, and electrical use by manually adjusting our autopilots.

www.morganscloud.com

OK, you got me! I just subscribed....

colemj · Apr 27, 2023

jviss said:
Thanks Dave, reading it now. I would like to know, though, do I have a "deeply stupid AP," or a smart one, or even one that's a little bit smart? Mine's the Simrad AC42 computer with the RC42 rate compass, and two AP24 control heads (I can also control the AP from the Zeus2 MFDs).

Our previous boat had your exact system. It is a good, smart system and the direct predecessor to their current one. The main improvement on the new one is a better compass and steering algorithms that take advantage of the additional data provided by that compass, like heave, sway, surge, etc. There is one feature of the AC42 that B&G dropped in the new one and I can't figure out why - which is the ability to optimize VMG when going to windward. I loved this feature - set the AP sailing upwind, and it automatically figured out where optimum VMG was and steered to it.

Mark

colemj · Apr 27, 2023

Radio Flyer said:
I believe the BandG H-5000 is the correct direction to go. With rudder feedback.

Unless you are racing, or have a very high-performance boat, or have a real penchant for utmost steering performance, and have a lot of money, the H5000 is probably overkill for a recreational or cruising boat. You will spend a lot of time dialing it and the rest of your transducers in to steer well, and this isn't trivial. The H5000 is a complete system, not just an AP - like mentioned earlier. The AP component is an entire add-on to the basic system, and there are 3 performance option choices within the system. Then there are all the add ons like motion sensors to take full advantage of it. It isn't difficult to get $10k into one. The step down is the NAC series, and they are priced like other consumer series such as Raymarine, Garmin, etc.

Mark

jviss · Apr 27, 2023

colemj said:
Unless you are racing, or have a very high-performance boat, or have a real penchant for utmost steering performance, and have a lot of money, the H5000 is probably overkill for a recreational or cruising boat. You will spend a lot of time dialing it and the rest of your transducers in to steer well, and this isn't trivial. The H5000 is a complete system, not just an AP - like mentioned earlier. The AP component is an entire add-on to the basic system, and there are 3 performance option choices within the system. Then there are all the add ons like motion sensors to take full advantage of it. It isn't difficult to get $10k into one. The step down is the NAC series, and they are priced like other consumer series such as Raymarine, Garmin, etc.

Mark

HI Mark,

You seem to know a lot about these, as does @dlochner . I have the AC42 with AP24 control heads, and Zeus2 MFDs. I've heard that Simrad dropped some features going to the NAC series, like VMG optimization. Is this so?

Thanks,

jv

Tally Ho · Apr 27, 2023

Radio Flyer said:
I've had sailboats with both Raymarine and Garmin chart plotters. Despite networking the instruments, I find their ability to hold a wind position weak at best.

I wonder about the experience of other sailors with Simrad, B&G, or other brands.

Which is most successful holding to the wind? As an aside, how well do the systems estimate arrival time. Theoretically there is a fair bit of math behind speed, distance to travel, tacking angle, and arrival time. The Raymarine was pretty fair at determining the arrival time at angle of attack. That value informed me on how much headway to give.

Just looking for experienced opinions.

For a 27 foot boat, there is no reason a wheel pilot (Raymarine, or CPT ) should not be able to handle the steering duties, assuming the boat isn’t grossly unbalanced or you are in some really large seas.

I had an ST4000 without a rudder sensor on my 13,000 pound O’Day 322. That AP handled most steering duties, unless I was way over-canvassed or in really large seas.

I “found” a new, old stock ST6000 with a rudder sensor on EBAY. I installed it last year, and did see an improvement, especially in light air when the AP was turning the wheel, but the boat wasn’t turning much…and in larger seas. If anything, it keeps the AP from trying to turn the boat past the range of the steering…

Yes, I would like a below deck linear drive, but not sure the cost is worth it on a boat like mine, and the sailing I do currently.

Greg

dlochner · Apr 27, 2023

jviss said:
HI Mark,

You seem to know a lot about these, as does @dlochner . I have the AC42 with AP24 control heads, and Zeus2 MFDs. I've heard that Simrad dropped some features going to the NAC series, like VMG optimization. Is this so?

Thanks,

jv

The advice you want to follow is John Harries advice. He has much more experience and in-depth knowledge of APs. When I read the 3 articles I learned a lot.

If your goal is to sail the world, John's advice and insights are well worth the $2 or so a month.

jssailem · Apr 27, 2023

dlochner said:
worth the $2 or so a month.

$3/month $36 a year now. Still worth ever penny.

2024 Buy Matrix

$4 /Month—$48/Year Join Questions? $3 /Month—$36/Year Join Questions? $10 /Month—$120/Year Join Questions? Can I learn more before I join? Right Here Do you have a warranty? Of course…

www.morganscloud.com

Go to the site and explore the more than 500 free articles available.

Attainable Adventure Cruising

Reference and technical site for offshore voyaging and cruising in sail and motorboats.

www.morganscloud.com

jviss · Apr 28, 2023

So, yes, I did subscribe. I'm reading article two now, @dlochner what's the third article to which you refer? The buyer's guide article?

I wish there was a chart mapping the four fundamental adjustments to what they are called for the various pilots on the market. They are Gain, Counter-rudder, Deadband, and Trim. Which parameters are these for my Simrad AC42? I know I will figure it out, but it would be nice to have confirmation.

colemj · Apr 28, 2023

jviss said:
HI Mark,

You seem to know a lot about these, as does @dlochner . I have the AC42 with AP24 control heads, and Zeus2 MFDs. I've heard that Simrad dropped some features going to the NAC series, like VMG optimization. Is this so?

Thanks,

jv

Yes, they did make some feature changes. The only one that I miss is VMG optimization when going to windward. I don't know why they dropped this. They also dropped "Wind-Nav" mode, which is supposed to guide one on when to tack when following an upwind navigation route from the plotter. I never got this feature to work, and even understanding how it was supposed to work escaped me. Probably why they dropped it. Instead, they have the ability to use polars and laylines now, which I suspect takes the place of the above features.

The other changes are unimportant to me - mostly things like removing steering patterns, and the ability to follow depth contours, if the AP is set for sailboat instead of powerboat. Since these are fishing features, they aren't relevant to most sailboats.

Mark

jviss · Apr 28, 2023

colemj said:
Yes, they did make some feature changes. The only one that I miss is VMG optimization when going to windward. I don't know why they dropped this. They also dropped "Wind-Nav" mode, which is supposed to guide one on when to tack when following an upwind navigation route from the plotter. I never got this feature to work, and even understanding how it was supposed to work escaped me. Probably why they dropped it. Instead, they have the ability to use polars and laylines now, which I suspect takes the place of the above features.

The other changes are unimportant to me - mostly things like removing steering patterns, and the ability to follow depth contours, if the AP is set for sailboat instead of powerboat. Since these are fishing features, they aren't relevant to most sailboats.

Mark

Thank you Mark. I'm still poring over John Harrie's articles, and the manuals for my Zeus2 MFDs and AC42 AP computer. It's not clear to me how many of these features are features of the MFD or the AP computer. For example, while there is no mention of laylines or VMG optimization in the AP Installation Manual, they are explained in the MFD manual.

colemj · Apr 28, 2023

jviss said:
I wish there was a chart mapping the four fundamental adjustments to what they are called for the various pilots on the market. They are Gain, Counter-rudder, Deadband, and Trim. Which parameters are these for my Simrad AC42? I know I will figure it out, but it would be nice to have confirmation.

On the AC42 these are under the "Automatic Steering" menu. Gain is "Rudder Gain", although "Response" under the "Autopilot" menu also plays an interactive factor, Deadband is "Minimum Rudder" although "SeaState Filter" under the "Autopilot" menu also plays an interactive factor, Counter-rudder is "Counter-rudder", and Trim is "Auto Trim".

These can be individually set for two separate operating levels - "High" and "Low", which relates to boat speed, and the transition point between them is also adjustable.

I always found just leaving the AP settings on "Auto" worked the best, as the pilot then continuously monitors its operation and automatically adjusts these parameters to meet different conditions. The transition speed between "High" and "Low" should be manually set by experience for your particular boat - the speed in which the steering requires less activity to initiate changes.

This is the big difference between B&G and NKE and the rest of the pack - the constant self-monitoring and automatic adjustments of their steering parameters. While Morgan Cloud gives good basic advice for autopilots in general, he does not have the specific experience with these particular pilots, nor much experience with the current generation of pilots that are much more sophisticated than those in the past.

Mark

colemj · Apr 28, 2023

jviss said:
Thank you Mark. I'm still poring over John Harrie's articles, and the manuals for my Zeus2 MFDs and AC42 AP computer. It's not clear to me how many of these features are features of the MFD or the AP computer. For example, while there is no mention of laylines or VMG optimization in the AP Installation Manual, they are explained in the MFD manual.

We don't have a B&G plotter, so can't speak to that. Perhaps moving these functions to the plotter is why they were dropped from the AP itself. They are all software calculations, so the plotter probably has more capacity for that. The AP24 manual was terrible. Download the AP44 manual, and it contains a lot of detailed information of these things for the AC42.

Mark

colemj · Apr 28, 2023

Tally Ho said:
For a 27 foot boat, there is no reason a wheel pilot (Raymarine, or CPT ) should not be able to handle the steering duties, assuming the boat isn’t grossly unbalanced or you are in some really large seas.

I agree with you, but I think the OP mentioned that he was moving up to a much larger boat, and I think he was asking about AP's for that.

Mark

jviss · Apr 28, 2023

colemj said:
Download the AP44 manual, and it contains a lot of detailed information of these things for the AC42.

I think you're mistaken, I downloaded it, and there's just about nothing in there about setting up the autopilot. On the other hand, the Zeus2 MFD manual has a lot of info.

I don't think the "smarts" are in the control heads or MFDs, I suspect the capabilities are in the autopilot computer, and the MFDs or control heads (like the AP24) just access the parameters.

Tally Ho · Apr 28, 2023

colemj said:
I agree with you, but I think the OP mentioned that he was moving up to a much larger boat, and I think he was asking about AP's for that.

Mark

I see that in post 14….didn’t notice it before I responded.

Thanks,

Greg

Best sailing autopilot?

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SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John

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