Benefits / drawbacks of going bigger

[Terry Cox]

Jumping to the dock to stop a boat is so dangerous there should be a sign in every marina.

Ditto no jumping. But I do step off onto the dock in order to first, secure the mid ship line to a cleat, followed by the bow line then the stern line once I've touched the dock. I do not trust any sort of mechanical device to grab a cleat from the boat deck. Too many things to go wrong, IMHO. Also, the distance from our cockpit to a dock cleat is beyond any sort of spring line around a dock cleat to stop our 35,000 pound boat. One develops a technique that works for their situation and as a solo sailor it has worked this way for many years. There have been a couple of instances where I did not follow my best practice, without causing any harm. However, at some point, I will become less spry/agile to get from the cockpit to the dock quickly enough to secure that mid ship line, but until then...

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Absolutely incorrect. I've owned a Catalina 22, a 25 and for 25 years our C34. When we got the C34 we said we're gonna disprove that old BS sawhorse.
And we did. 4-5 years on the 22, 11 years on the 25 and 25 years on the 34.
Please don't perpetuate things that are untrue.

I agree with you ... it's all about having the boat that best serves your interests! Length only matters when it's incompatible with how you want to sail your boat.

 

[Stu Jackson]

I've posted this many times before: from 2010 and a letter to the editor of Latitude 38 in 2008!!!

Single Handing 101.2 HOPPING OFF THE BOAT IS UNNECESSARY
Single handing & Bull Rails

 

[Stu Jackson]

(no mid-ship cleats)

Apex, I hear this all the time. We didn't have them either. So I bought track slide on cleats and installed them on our jib sheet tracks, forward end. Not exactly midship but when you understand the purpose you'll realize they don't have to be. You might want to consider this option.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Apex, I hear this all the time. We didn't have them either. So I bought track slide on cleats and installed them on our jib sheet tracks, forward end. Not exactly midship but when you understand the purpose you'll realize they don't have to be. You might want to consider this option.

Yes, a necessary addition! You have inner tracks and tracks on the toe rail - no? My neighbor's C-34 does and I wish I had that feature. One of the small differences I've noted about our boats. The stanchions are mounted on the deck so the tracks on the toe rail are not interrupted. My stanchions overhang the toe rail (and there is a drainage gap as well) so if I were to have a track on the toe rail, it would need to be interrupted.

 

[jssailem]

SPOT ON @Stu Jackson. I have had the pleasure of observing your docking mastery in a variety of docking situations. It is nothing but grace in motion.

That would be a Guinness brew

 

[Apex]

Apex, I hear this all the time. We didn't have them either. So I bought track slide on cleats and installed them on our jib sheet tracks, forward end. Not exactly midship but when you understand the purpose you'll realize they don't have to be. You might want to consider this option.

Thanks Stu, my setup with forward spring and stern all is good. It is two lines, sure, but it works or me. Would I prefer a mid? yes, and I tried a jib sheet track type and the one I had on-hand simply wasn't as solid as deck mounted, so did away with them since the current setup works fine.

That being said, springing from mid-ship is very nice. Agreed in your enthusiasm for springing amidship. Position does play into how the boat reacts when idling forward with the spring. Some rudder angle helps if it is not too far off. Good thing with jib track mounted, is you can make adjustments to fine tune.

 

[Stu Jackson]

You have inner tracks and tracks on the toe rail - no? My neighbor's C-34 does and I wish I had that feature.

No, Scotty, I only have the inner tracks. The outer tracks were an option my PO didn't select. Mine work just fine. There are a lot of subtle differences between C34s, aside from the Mark I and Mark II obvious ones.

 

[Timm R Oday25]

Regarding docking with higher freeboard. My wife and I are getting older. A few years ago she declared that she was no longer going to jump onto the dock when we were docking. What to do? New wife was out of the question. Instead, I devised the "no jump cleat snagger." It consists of an expandable aluminum boat pole with a dock line running through the center. The pre-measured dock line attaches to our mid point cleat on the toe rail. The line runs through the pole to a braided loop held open by a clear pvc hose bent into a loop on the other end. The pole can reach about six feet out to the side. Wife stands in the cockpit and slips the loop over the dock cleat at the end of our slip as we return. As the line stretches out we slide into our slip until the snagger brings us to a stop. I leave the boat in forward idling and the boat stays put against the dock. Now the wife can safely step down onto the dock and attach the remaining dock lines. No one jumps and I stay at the helm. Come to think about it I could probably View attachment 220812do this alone. Easy to make a snagger and dock your larger boat safely.

I'm intriqued . How does the line inside the clear tubing come out ? Is there a slit ?

 

[Tally Ho]

Thanks Stu, my setup with forward spring and stern all is good. It is two lines, sure, but it works or me. Would I prefer a mid? yes, and I tried a jib sheet track type and the one I had on-hand simply wasn't as solid as deck mounted, so did away with them since the current setup works fine.

That being said, springing from mid-ship is very nice. Agreed in your enthusiasm for springing amidship. Position does play into how the boat reacts when idling forward with the spring. Some rudder angle helps if it is not too far off. Good thing with jib track mounted, is you can make adjustments to fine tune.

A possible solution to not having a midship cleat, is to use a cabin top winch and a loop attached to the stern-most dock cleat. I have a permanent loop line cleated at the end of my finger pier. The loop is held open by a piece of garden hose, and is left on a Shepard’s hook at the end of the pier. When I return to the dock, usually solo, I just line the boat up in the slip, slowly making forward progress, and as the middle of the boat (or further aft) crossed the end of the finger pier, I grab the loop off the hook and put it on the cabin top winch. I can do all of this from the cockpit if needed. Once the loop is over the winch, idle forward brings Tally Ho to a stop in the slip, and the forward idle keeps her tight agains the pier even in a cross wind.

Another benefit of this arrangement, is that when trying to leave in a cross-wind, I can put the loop over the winch, use the engine to hold the boat tight against the pier, fast off all of the lines, walk back to the cockpit, put transmission into reverse and start backing out, and lift the loop off the winch and hang it on the shepardshook as I am backing outpast it.

Greg

 

[RoyS]

I'm intriqued . How does the line inside the clear tubing come out ? Is there a slit ?

No slit. Very simple device. Line runs through pole and exits at both ends. Loop is a braided splice inside a loop of pvc hose. There is a pvc hose T fitting that the line runs through and the hose attaches to with the line inside. Pvc hose holds loop shape until it is stretched out and folds flat. The line is premeasured with a braided eye that attaches to the mid-point cleat. The loop end just reaches the stern from our mid-point cleat. Our usual dock (and most docks we visit) has a cleat at the stern end. When my wife snags the dock end cleat she keeps a slight tension on the pole to keep the loop in place and the pole suspended until the line stretches out and she lets it go. After all the lines are secured, we replace the snagger with a premeasured spring and put the snagger away. We have never failed to snag the end cleat. Foolproof. Most of my marina friends always call for help over the radio when docking. We never have. I prefer no outside assistance.

 

[william24424]

I prefer the room on the high side while tacking on my larger boat. Two people maneuvering around each other on a small boat get's old. That's not my boat in photo...but you get the idea.

 

[dLj]

So, let me preface my response with some history/information. I sailed trailerable boats for many years before I went to keelboats that stayed in the water. I even had trailerable boats while still having a keelboat that stayed in the water. I think the least expensive way to sail is through using trailerable sailboats. My father sailed only trailerable sailboats his whole life, he sailed into his 90's. He would spend entire summers sailing in the San Juan Islands on one or another of his trailerable sailboats. You mention not crossing lake Michigan in a smaller 28 footer - well, not only would I, but I have. There are excellent trailerable boats that are very capable of corssing Michigan. Now, I wouldn't head out in a storm (well, today anyway, let's not talk about in my youth...)

Hey everyone -

I've been sailing about 25 years, almost all trailer boats. I've owned three - sold off the Hunter 170, still own the Capri 18 and the Passagemaker Dinghy.

I dallied too long and the amazingly beautiful Nonsuch 26 got away, but there are always more boats for sale. The one that's caught my eye now is a Catalina 28. Seems to be in good shape for it's age, the price seems fair, new sails, new electronics, and it a good looking boat.

The thing I'm debating is trailer vs marina.

What I like about the trailer boat:

1. I can be in Suttons Bay on one weekend and Detour Village the next weekend.

I would not brush this point off. I sailed trailerable sailboats from the Sea of Cortez to the Gulf of Mexico, to the Georgian Bay on Lake Huron and many places inbetween. It is far easier to go to places to sail for a short amount of time this way than with a keelboat.

2. It's super simple, sails well, easy (cheap) to maintain.

Any boat can be this way - but certainly the tendancy is for larger boats to be more complicated.

3. I enjoy doing the projects - thinking about painting it next summer - made cockpit cushions last year.

This is good - you will have projects with a sailboat no matter trailerable or not....

What I imagine I would like about going bigger:

1. Having a boat in a marina is like having a vacation home. Even if you don't get to sail, you can hang out in your waterfront cabin.

This is both good and bad. You need to make that choice. Do you want a "stationary" vacation home?

2. I wouldn't have to cram this aging body head first into a pup-tent-like cabin.

This is a personal choice. There are some trailerable sailboats that have quite a bit of interior space, but that one is on you to decide.

3. The cabin would be comfortable enough that you could use it underway (we are never in our cabin while sailing now).

See above.

4. Bigger boat might allow bigger adventures?? I wouldn't cross Lake Michigan on a 28 footer, but I can see sailing along the coast. I keep my 18 in the bays.

Define " bigger adventure". I've had pretty awesome adventures on every sailboat I've owned....

5. I still kind of enjoy the 90 minutes at the boat ramp on my 18 footer, but my wife clearly does not.

One thing I did with all my trailerable sailboats was to develop systems where the set up and take down was as efficient as possible. But it is certainly a concern. 90 minutes is a bit long it seems to me. I think the normal time I'd finally get to was about 45 minutes. But it definitely took me a lot of work to figure out how to make that time frame possible. On my current boat, I think it takes almost as much time to get her all set up and out sailing - just a FYI....

Concerns:

1. I'm not sure if there is a formula, but cost of ownership seems to increase with length more than 1:1. Marina fees, storage fees and maintenance and etc.

Costs go up by more than 1:1 with size. But the transition from trailerable to in the water has some step functions. You don't have marina fees (usually) with a trailerable boat - so that is a notable cost increase. You are in Michigan - you'll have to winterize your boat. You'll have haul out and launch fees that don't exist currently. You'll have bottom paint that you probably don't have now. Bottom paint is expensive. So not only do you have the increased cost from increased size, you have additional costs you don't currently have.

2. I think the learning curve would be a plus more than a drawback - but I need to learn a lot about the systems on a larger boat. The electrical system on my 18 is pretty simple - and there is no head or galley.

I think this point is not a large concern. Unless you are getting a really complicated boat, and the ones you've described are not in that category, then this is not a big deal.

3. Most marinas in Michigan are owned by the DNR and they reserve most of the slips for transients. That means you can always find a place to visit, but it might be hard to find a place to park a 28 foot boat for the season.

You definitely need to know where you are going to keep your boat before you buy it. This can be a real problem!

Questions for you:

Have any of you made the jump from trailer to marina?

Yes - a lot...

Any regrets?
Anything not on my list that I need to consider?

I welcome your feedback.

John

Regrets for me, no. But how and where I'm sailing mandated my current boat.

But what I think you need to decide on is more how do you want to sail? Do you want all the additional costs from a non-trailerable boat? Do you want to have a "floating apartment"? How much do you like being able to take your boat somewhere new?

How you wish to sail, and your ability to afford that wish is a what you have to decide.

dj

 

[patbratton]

I bought a Hunter 240 two years ago with a plan to go to Apalachicola and St. Simons for long weekends. We live North of Atlanta. I waited too long to retire and my wife and I just can't do the setup an launch by ourselves any more. It is not like when we we had the Hobie 18. I'm not willing to get a younger wife and the boat is too small for a crew. We put her in a slip at Aqualand Marina in Lake Lanier Georgia and she has been there ever since. It is three thousand a year with electricity and water and I picked a nice dock with much larger boats. The other boats never go out. The Catalina 22 and 25's sail often but the over 28 foot crowd only talk about things being broken or needing replacement. We do afternoon parties on the boat, celebrate Mother's day, and the 4th of July. The children and grandchildren love it. My daughter spends a night or two on the boat as it is close to where she works. Small boats are more fun and they go out more often. She still seems large to me, what with the cabin and all. I am very fond of the Hunter 240 and the 260. I also like the Rhodes 22 and the Catalina 25.

 

[SoSound]

My wife and I started sailing when we were both in our 50s. We signed up for sailing lessons, and then joined the same organization’s sailing club in Olympia. We sailed, frequently, on several of their boats for a couple of years, our favorite was a Catalina Capri 22. We continued to learn and sail, and gain experience, and when we struggled with some routine tasks on a Catalina 30, during the ASA 104 Bareboat Cruising class, the people on this forum helped to reassure us that we would be OK on a boat of that size.

Our ambitions were always regional cruising, at least. So, we searched for and found our first boat, a Beneteau First 285. Which would have been a perfect boat for us, if we had stayed in the South Sound, but we didn’t. The 285 worked fine for us, all the way up to a three week cruise to the San Juan Islands, but we found ourselves getting a little tired of shuffling passed each other in the cabin, and we were uncomfortable in wind and current conditions that we encountered late in that cruise… so, there was one more upsize in our future.

We have had our current boat, a Beneteau Oceanis 34, for ten years now and we couldn’t be happier! We may not be circumnavigators of much at all, but we are out and cruising for at least several weeks a year, and we continue to make plans to go even further. If we are successful in executing our current plans, next years ’Big Cruise’ should check in at at least 350 NM in length, and we should be out for about six weeks. And we won‘t be roughing it, we think of our accommodations as comfortable or better. We will sail, and explore, and hike, and kayak, and we will eat and drink like royalty.

 

[dmdiehl64]

All of the pros you mention are spot on. Even if we don’t go out sailing, it’s our floating cottage for the weekend. We are Tawas Bay Yacht Club for what it’s worth. Being up near traverse city, we looked at a slip at Harbor West and it was $40,000 a few years ago (now 75,000+). Im sure there are cheaper options but that is a very desirable and expensive place to hold a slip. Maybe for that reason you continue to trailer. There are larger trailerable weekend boats too like the S2 7.9.

 

[dmdiehl64]

Hi John,
Your sailing experience leads me to believe that you won't be satisfied coastal cruising Lake Michigan, staying close to the home port. The fact that you prefer the destinations that are further away from home leads me to think that you would soon be setting your sights on visiting overnight destinations. Hence, if you think the 28' boat does not make you comfortable crossing Lake Michigan, you will be pining for a boat that will make you comfortable enough to go where you want to go (and not be limited by daysails in your immediate area). Honestly, it sounds like you are leaning towards moving on from the trailer-sailer lifestyle and wanting to sail a boat that suits your desire to visit interesting places. That's why I continue to advise that you probably won't be satisfied with a boat less than 30'. There is a significant difference when moving into the mid-size length. Your jump from 18' to 28' may seem like a giant step at first, but I think that it isn't as much of a step-up in comfort as you think. You may find that the step up from 28' to 30' (at least in a Catalina) is a larger step than the leap from 18' to 28' (odd as that sounds). You may find the 28' boat still seems like a smaller boat, except now you are tied to a marina. If you are going to make that leap into the marina experience, you may as well go all out and get the boat that really expands your horizons.

This is fantastic advice. We went through many of the same decision tree when buying our first boat (32’ Beneteau). Ultimately the 30’+ provides more comfortable “live-aboard” and confidence traversing the Great Lakes.

 

[Barnacle Bill]

I can only give you my perspective, but YMMV….

When I started looking for my first boat, I was really enamored with the MacGregor 28M. A water ballast, trailerable sailboat, arable of carrying a 50HP engine.

I found someone who sailed his Mac28X (similar to the M, but with a swing keel instead of the dagger board the M uses). The owner agreed to take me out for a sail on Lake Michigan, my planned sailing grounds.

awe met at his boat ramp, and spent 60 minutes setting the boat up, and then got under way. The Mac 26X with the water ballast didn’t handle the rough seas that day very well. I asked if we could motor back to the River to see how fast she could go, and if we could get her on a plane. We let the water ballast out, and motored back. The boat seemed to wallowa bit in the waves, could not get on a plane and in general wasnt very comfortable. When we got back to the ramp, we spent another 90 minutes tearing her down and getting her ready to trailer home.

I learned several things that day…

1) I wanted a boat at a marina because I didnt want to waste so much time setting up and tearing down the boat to go for a sail.

2) For Lake Michigan, I really wanted a 30-foot, with a diesel engine. A real keel, and a wheel (my preference).

I bought a 1998 28-foot Hunter 280 that checked most of the boxes. I sold it 5 years later and bought my current boat, a 1988 O’Day 322. The 5 foot difference between the 2 boats was pretty dramatic. And the 10-year difference in age also made a difference. I like to say that my O’Day 322 “has character”, which means she takes a bit more TLC.

Much more boat to maintain, but way better sailer too.

I love the cabin on my 32-foot boat…a real galley, private berths, heavy enough to sail on some challenging Lake Michigan seas.

But it does cost more to maintain, it cost more to keep in a slip and to store for the winter. I do all of my own maintenance, so that isn’t a big deal, but sails and other parts cost more because the boat is bigger.

Good luck on your decision.

Greg

They are 26M's and 26X's, not 28 BTW.

 

[Barnacle Bill]

You actually answered many of your own questions as already pointed out, but I will give you my 2 cents. I have been sailing almost since the earth cooled and started out on a day sailor and gradually moved up into larger trailerable boats that I could sleep on and then boats that I kept in marinas. When young, it's no big thing dealing with launching and retrieving and stepping and unstepping the mast along with the other tasks of trailer sailing. The upside is you can trail your boat to different bodies of water and expand your horizons with those opportunities. The upside of getting into larger boats is more comfort down below and while underway. When you have a boat at a dock, you just jump on board, start the engine, cast off the lines and shore power and head out. No launching. No mast stepping. No parking the car and trailer, etc. Of course bigger boats cost more. You have dockage, insurance and sails are bigger, so they cost more, the systems are more involved (but don't have to be overwhelming) and there are maintenance things to think about. A trailerable boat might not need antifouling paint, but a boat kept in a marina probably does. You can learn to winterize your own engine, if you live somewhere that is done, but check your insurance policy. If something goes wrong, they might not cover the damage if a boat owner does it, but if a professional, like a marina mechanic does it and something bad happens, they usually will cover the loss. With a larger boat kept in a marina, you have more storage cost, but they do the work for you hauling the boat and launching it, etc. if you are in colder climes. In larger boats you have more headroom, more places to put stuff, a more spacious head, usually a galley, ice box, maybe refrigeration -basically lots of comfort that you can call your own and because you have room to keep stuff, you aren't going to be loading and unloading so much with each trip. With a larger boat, you can go out in bigger water and depending on where you are, you can take long voyages. Depending on the boat you buy, most likely you might need more crew, but I know couples who own quite large sailboats that they sail themselves. And, then there is the camaraderie of your fellow boaters at the marina and all that it entails Social events and just fun stuff you do in a marina environment that you don't necessarily enjoy as a trailer sailor. As you age, trailer sailing most likely will get old and you will enjoy the convenience that a larger boat at a dock will provide. Personally, I totally enjoyed my life as a trailer sailor. Now I am enjoying the life on larger boats on bigger bodies of water.

 

[Tally Ho]

They are 26M's and 26X's, not 28 BTW.

You are right! 26 footers.