Battery Buyers = Good News

[Blitz]

Sportsman battery value - AH's!

It looks like the Defender "Sportsman" batteries are a very good value with increased AH's!


12V Flooded
Sportsman Group 24 Deep Cycle = 85Ah
Sportsman Group 27 Deep Cycle = 105 Ah
Sportsman Group 31 Deep Cycle = 130 Ah

unless it's a misprint the last two years...

 

[Maine Sail]

It looks like the Defender "Sportsman" batteries are a very good value with increased AH's!


12V Flooded
Sportsman Group 24 Deep Cycle = 85Ah
Sportsman Group 27 Deep Cycle = 105 Ah
Sportsman Group 31 Deep Cycle = 130 Ah

unless it's a misprint the last two years...

The Sportsman labeled batteries are a brand mix of East Penn/Deka & Exide and are supplied to both Jamestown and Defender by a Connecticut battery distributor who labels them as Sportsman.. The deep cycle batteries you listed above are actually manufactured by Exide and are basically the Exide Nautilus deep cycles. They are a good battery but can often be bought for less, locally, in the "Exide Nautilus" brand.

I am at a loss as to where they get those ratings from as Exide rates the Nautilus Deep Cycle 31 at 115 Ah's not 130Ah's, the group 24 at 80Ah's not 85Ah's and the 27 is actually correct.........

 

[Blitz]

I am at a loss as to where they get those ratings from as Exide rates the Nautilus Deep Cycle 31 at 115 Ah's not 130Ah's, the group 24 at 80Ah's not 85Ah's and the 27 is actually correct.........

Well that's a bummer, another thing in life that is too good to be true... I was hoping to get a bit more AH's with the replacement of my two 27's with 31's. Those published ratings were encouraging.

 

[Jackdaw]

Hi All,

I took some pics at the store and then called Deka / East Penn tech support and spoke with a very nice lady, and very knowledgeable, named Carol G.. She informed me that they DO NOT build the Sam's Club, O'Reilly Auto Parts, NAPA or West Marine batteries any differently and they are all the SAME. They all roll off the same assembly line and get the sticker for the retailer they are going to.

This new deal between Sam's Club and East Penn represents a tremendous value for the American boater..

Maine,
Thanks again for digging this up. You posts are always top shelf.

But this quote by 'Carol' gives me pause. As someone involved in product development and marketing, and dealing with external suppliers, I am just floored that someone at D/EP would make a comment like that on the record. Normally the details of supplier agreements are under tight control. That someone would spill the bean like that would warrant a dismissal with cause offence in many organizations. I have to think that WM would be (or was) livid when they found this got out. Thoughts?

That being said, Sam's batteries on are the spring shopping list!

 

[njsail]

I purchased a bunch of Group 31 AGM's from Sams club recently. Here's the top of the Duracell battery and it clearly states manufactured by East Penn in PA. Now for the next step: several years of testing while enjoying the sun, water, and motion of the ocean. Good luck.

 

[BillyK]

The Sportsman labeled batteries are a brand mix of East Penn/Deka & Exide and are supplied to both Jamestown and Defender by a Connecticut battery distributor who labels them as Sportsman.. The deep cycle batteries you listed above are actually manufactured by Exide and are basically the Exide Nautilus deep cycles. They are a good battery but can often be bought for less, locally, in the "Exide Nautilus" brand.

I am at a loss as to where they get those ratings from as Exide rates the Nautilus Deep Cycle 31 at 115 Ah's not 130Ah's, the group 24 at 80Ah's not 85Ah's and the 27 is actually correct.........

i saw batteries quoted at these amp hour ratings, but it was at a 1amp draw.. not a 5amp draw that is standard.. my bet is they are measuring at 1 amp..

 

[Kettlewell]

Sams Club etc.

I was intrigued to see that my local Sam's Club carries GC12 deep-cycle golf cart batteries. These are 12-volt golf cart batteries that have the same footprint but are higher than group 31 12-volts, and they are rated for around 150 amp hours each. Of course they are going for around $185 apiece too, so they are not as economical as typical 6-volt golf carts for $85 apiece, 230 amp hours. But, they would be a way to get more AH in the same footprint as group 31s, if you have the height. I bought some of the Defender Sportsman group 31s and I wasn't all that impressed. They were getting seriously depleted after only two years of heavy liveaboard use. I admit I did not treat them well, with many deep discharges, but the replacement Interstate batteries have now lasted about five years. One of the Sportsmans developed a short and died an early death too. I think you can get better batteries for less. I think the best current deal out there are the Sams Club 6-volts at around $85 apiece made by Deka-Penn.

 

[Maine Sail]

i saw batteries quoted at these amp hour ratings, but it was at a 1amp draw.. not a 5amp draw that is standard.. my bet is they are measuring at 1 amp..

The is no such thing as a 5A draw as "standard". The load is based a mathematical equation arrived at based on the 20 hour Ah rating.

100Ah / 20 = 5A
130Ah / 20 = 6.5A
60Ah / 20 = 3A

A 100Ah battery can support a 5A load for 20 hours before falling to 10.5V

BUT

A 130Ah battery can support a 6.5A load for 20 hours before hitting 10.5V.

AND

A 60 Ah battery can support a 3A load for 20 hours before hitting 10.5V.

Only reserve capacity is a fixed load, usually 25A until the battery hits 10.5V though in some cases they are also rated at 75A as well....

Some Wal*Mart batteries now say 125Ah @1A but it means little and is totally incorrect labeling, probably done up by someone in marketing who knows nothing about batteries.

A 1A draw on a group 31 would likely yield about 150+ Ah due to Peukert.... Any battery labeled in Ah's should be labeled at a 20 hour Ah rating using the formula above. If it says @1A I would call the manufacturer and find out why that is. Of course with Wal*Mart batteries you don't have that luxury...

 

[Maine Sail]

Maine,
Thanks again for digging this up. You posts are always top shelf.

But this quote by 'Carol' gives me pause. As someone involved in product development and marketing, and dealing with external suppliers, I am just floored that someone at D/EP would make a comment like that on the record. Normally the details of supplier agreements are under tight control. That someone would spill the bean like that would warrant a dismissal with cause offence in many organizations. I have to think that WM would be (or was) livid when they found this got out. Thoughts?

That being said, Sam's batteries on are the spring shopping list!

I spent over 20 years in very high level sales & sales management. I know how to get people to spill beans and get the info I desire, and have them feel good about giving it to me. I'm pretty effective at it...

We didn't get there by me just blurting out "Are the Sam's batteries identical to WM?".... I was on the phone with her and folks in engineering for over 40 minutes. You move gently into these investigative escapades and schmooze & puff the egos of the folks you're talking to.....

When I first called I mentioned to her that I was just at Sam's Club and saw that they now have East Penn batteries. I then went into ego puffing and went on and on about how much I love East Penn / Deka batteries and how great it is to be able to buy American made batteries from a US company, how robust they are how great they are to deal with etc. etc..

I then moved onto;

"This is a huge step for East Penn you guys must be very proud of this achievement, I am very happy to see you in Sam's, NAPA & West Marine locally as it give me many options and guarantees I can always find East Penn quality." "Is this a recent win for East Penn?"

By now I had her eating out of my hand.... I then began asking if she could tell me what the 20 hour Ah rating were on certain models because Sam's, like NAPA, does not label them in Ah's just reserve minutes...

"Oh lets see that 29 is our DC31."

"Carol, does that mean the Sam's battery is the same as the Deka DC31, or just similar? I only ask because I need to program a battery monitor with the specific Ah rating. I hate to be a pain, and you've been so helpful to me, but I really need to know the correct number. Can you help me with that so we know we have it right?"

"Oh Yes certainly but I just need to cross the Sam's model numbers because they call it a group 29 which is not really a group size we use. Hold on."

"Yes that battery is the same as a DC31 and has 105Ah...................."

I then asked about "Peukert" knowing it would get me transferred to the engineering department.... There was much more but according to them they don't make multiple lines and apparently this is not a secret they are hiding...

 

[Kettlewell]

Are you sure the Sportsman batteries are Deka-Penn or Exide Nautilus? They look like neither. They have a very distinctive looking black ribbed case, with the ribs running horizontally. They definitely do not look like the Exide Nautilus batteries I have seen. Here's a link to the Defender site.

 

[Maine Sail]

Are you sure the Sportsman batteries are Deka-Penn or Exide Nautilus? They look like neither. They have a very distinctive looking black ribbed case, with the ribs running horizontally. They definitely do not look like the Exide Nautilus batteries I have seen. Here's a link to the Defender site.

I have spoken with the distributor who labels them. He confirms they label both East Penn and Exide as Sportsman... I was told the deep cycle Sportsmans are Exide. Please remember that picture might not be representative of the actual battery. The pictured battery looks more like a Deka 31, they use a ribbed case as do many batteries, but they have 105Ah's not 115 or 130Ah's.

If anyone is looking for a 130Ah group 31 the US Battery group 31 and the Trojan SCS 225 both have 130Ah's...

 

[Kettlewell]

The Sportsman batteries I bought from Defender were definitely the black ribbed ones that looked just like the Deka commercial batteries, which interestingly are group 31 and weigh almost exactly (62.5 lbs) what Defender says the Sportsman batteries weigh. Makes me wonder now if what they were calling "deep cycle" batteries are really just the truck batteries, which are more like so-called "marine" batteries. That might explain the poor performance I experienced in deep-cycle use. Maybe they sell ones that are from Exide at some times and ones from Deka at other times.

Here's the company that supplies the Sportsman batteries to Defender. They do list the group 29/31 deep-cycle battery at 130 amp hours on their chart.

 

[BillyK]

The is no such thing as a 5A draw as "standard". The load is based a mathematical equation arrived at based on the 20 hour Ah rating.

100Ah / 20 = 5A
130Ah / 20 = 6.5A
60Ah / 20 = 3A

A 100Ah battery can support a 5A load for 20 hours before falling to 10.5V

BUT

A 130Ah battery can support a 6.5A load for 20 hours before hitting 10.5V.

AND

A 60 Ah battery can support a 3A load for 20 hours before hitting 10.5V.

Only reserve capacity is a fixed load, usually 25A until the battery hits 10.5V though in some cases they are also rated at 75A as well....

Some Wal*Mart batteries now say 125Ah @1A but it means little and is totally incorrect labeling, probably done up by someone in marketing who knows nothing about batteries.

A 1A draw on a group 31 would likely yield about 150+ Ah due to Peukert.... Any battery labeled in Ah's should be labeled at a 20 hour Ah rating using the formula above. If it says @1A I would call the manufacturer and find out why that is. Of course with Wal*Mart batteries you don't have that luxury...

Standard or not, many are providing the 5amp draw capacitance..

While its fine to go by the 20 hour rate, I prefer to know what the bank has at a given current. That's a much more useful number to me than the 20 hour number. Yes I know you can calculate it out.. But I have two tiny kids and a cranky wife so I don't always feel like doing math.

 

[Maine Sail]

Standard or not, many are providing the 5amp draw capacitance..

While its fine to go by the 20 hour rate, I prefer to know what the bank has at a given current. That's a much more useful number to me than the 20 hour number. Yes I know you can calculate it out.. But I have two tiny kids and a cranky wife so I don't always feel like doing math.

What I gave you is the industry standard for an Ah capacity ratings, it is a 20 hour rating. Any manufacturer giving you @5A (unless it is a 100Ah battery) or @1A is not using the industry standard rating and is fudging the numbers. If you don't have the industry standard 20 hour rating you CAN NOT properly program such things as a battery monitor, which use the 20 hour rating for their internal algorithm..

When buying batteries it is important to know the actual 20 hour rating and that what you're buying is rated to acceptable industry standards. Reputable manufacturers like Trojan, Lifeline, Deka, US Battery, Crown, Superior, Exide and others all use the industry standard for Ah capacity.

The process is easy. When the manufacturer rates a battery it has to run for 20 hours before hitting 10.5V. There are also 5 hour ratings too but the most widely accepted for golf car and deep cycle batteries is the 20 hour rating.

They've done all the work for you. All you need to do is to divide the Ah capacity rating by 20, ONCE, and that is the load that the battery will support for 20 hours before hitting 10.5V.

Any load applied that is above that number will mean LESS Ah's. Any load applied that is lower than that number will mean MORE Ah's thanks to Peukert effect. Because of Peukert trying to accurately keep track of % capacity based on amps in/out, in your head, is simply not possible unless you're Stephen Hawking. This is why electronic computer chip driven battery monitors were invented. They keep track of all that for you and calculate % charge based on Peukert effect.

The bottom line is when you see Ah capacity it should just say something like "100Ah" and NOTHING after it UNLESS that number directly lines up with the dived by 20 rule... Because of the Peukert factor a lower load than the 20 hour rating results in MORE Ah's. Manufacturers using @1A or @5A etc. are SWINDLING YOU and trying to make you THINK you got more Ah's than you really paid for. Caveat emptor....

 

[Blitz]

If anyone is looking for a 130Ah group 31 the US Battery group 31 and the Trojan SCS 225 both have 130Ah's...

So I guess the group 31's from "Batteries Plus" sold under the Rayovac name aren't 127 AH's as I was told? They thought they were deka built but not sure.

I also thought the sportman was different since their shipping weight was listed as 63 lbs in lieu of 59 for the west marine equivalent.

 

[Maine Sail]

So I guess the group 31's from "Batteries Plus" sold under the Rayovac name aren't 127 AH's as I was told? They thought they were deka built but not sure.

I also thought the sportman was different since their shipping weight was listed as 63 lbs in lieu of 59 for the west marine equivalent.

There's no way to know unless you ask; who the manufacturer is, then call them and ask them what the 20 hour rating of XX battery is that is sold to XX and labeled as XX. Re-labelers are often the ones fudging the numbers.. Sam's and NAPA choose not to list the Ah capacity on many of the batts but a quick call to East Penn and they will happily give you that info...

Plugging bogus @1A Ah ratings into a battery monitor will mean batteries that are cycled deeper than they should be and will result in a shorter life. The people "fudging" numbers will eventually be the ones to suffer the bad reputation...

As I've said before try and find a US Battery distributor. The US 31DCXC is one hell of a battery and is right in line with Trojan in terms of quality, though without the price premium. It is a legitimate 130Ah battery in a group 31....

http://www.usbattery.com/usb_us31dcxc_marine.html

 

[Kettlewell]

Can you provide a link to the description of the Rayovac group 31 batteries that are supposed to be 127 ah? Other group 31 batteries I found on the Batteries Plus website are shown under the Xtreme brand name, and if the picture is accurate (not always the case) they look identical to the Sportsman batteries sold by Defender that are made by Deka-East Penn and they claim are 130 ah. You can often tell the battery manufacturer by how the battery looks. Different companies have distinctive looks to them.

 

[Blitz]

You are right, they are called Extreme, sorry for the confusion. They may be Ray O Vac Extreme though but can't remember. But either way I asked the question earlier today with Batteries Plus from there corporate website since the two times I went in the store I got different answers on AH's. This is what Garrett Tortelli from Batteries Plus confined today;

"I 've provided the corresponding AH rating at a 20 hr. rate below next to the part number you requested.

SLI24MDC = 75AH
SLI27MDC = 90AH
SLI31MDC = 105AH

Please let me know if you have any further questions."

Based on this the store clerks were a bit off and got my hopes up (since the prices are good) over nothing. I might still however get my reserve group 24 from them.

Hope this helps,

Neal

 

[Rodd]

Hi Maine and the group-

Just purchased a set of Duracell EGC2 @ 230 aH. Can anyone tell me the Peukert number to put into my Link 2000 for this battery? I imagine it's pretty close to the number for the Trojan T-105s I am replacing.

Also, should these new batteries be equalizied before being put into service?

Thanks, and thanks for letting everyone know about what seems like a great deal in 6v batteries from Sam's club.

Rodd

 

[Maine Sail]

Hi Maine and the group-

Just purchased a set of Duracell EGC2 @ 230 aH. Can anyone tell me the Peukert number to put into my Link 2000 for this battery? I imagine it's pretty close to the number for the Trojan T-105s I am replacing.

The EGC2 is 1.27

Also, should these new batteries be equalizied before being put into service?

No but they should be "cycled" to 50% a number of times before you'll actually get the Ah performance they are rated for..