Are American Sailor More Over Cautious Then European Sailors
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My wife went down to the boat today and they are still there. We have been off the boat for a couple of days (had to do laundry and had a friend from out of state visit). We will be back down there tomorrow after work and one of the first things I will do is go by and see them.
Re: Are American Sailor More Over Cautious Then European Sai
After 50+ years as a professional mariner, I am positive that many of the weekend sailors in the marinas I have picked up deliveries from, may have written a post like yours, about us.
For years I delivered bare boats at the end of their term (5 years of being abused by folks who either didn't care or know any better);taking some 1200 miles in the ocean w/o more than a cursory inspection. Buy food, board crew, then go! Why would anyone do that you might ask? That's crazy!
Pretty simple; those who hired us to deliver these boats were not going to spend one thin dime more than they must to get it from point a to b. If you complain, request ANYTHING beyond what they consider necessary (which is pretty much NOTHING "after all this boat has been sailed by idiots for 5 years, can't you, as a professional do it now for 10 days?") or say word one, you get booted & another captain has your job. And there go your future jobs, too.
Not to say it's prudent, but that is the reality in the industry.
So to get back to your OP; I doubt that the country of origin makes much difference; we are all individuals & whatever forces move us to do what's necessary (like your Polish friends may not have had the finances to do anything other than what they did), while others will not take the same risks, possibly because of a lack of experience or confidence, or just prudence.
But sailing is just not a difficult or particularly dangerous thing to do. It is not rocket science. After all, mankind has been sailing for over 6000 years, on some pretty rickety craft, at that.
After 50+ years as a professional mariner, I am positive that many of the weekend sailors in the marinas I have picked up deliveries from, may have written a post like yours, about us.
For years I delivered bare boats at the end of their term (5 years of being abused by folks who either didn't care or know any better);taking some 1200 miles in the ocean w/o more than a cursory inspection. Buy food, board crew, then go! Why would anyone do that you might ask? That's crazy!
Pretty simple; those who hired us to deliver these boats were not going to spend one thin dime more than they must to get it from point a to b. If you complain, request ANYTHING beyond what they consider necessary (which is pretty much NOTHING "after all this boat has been sailed by idiots for 5 years, can't you, as a professional do it now for 10 days?") or say word one, you get booted & another captain has your job. And there go your future jobs, too.
Not to say it's prudent, but that is the reality in the industry.
So to get back to your OP; I doubt that the country of origin makes much difference; we are all individuals & whatever forces move us to do what's necessary (like your Polish friends may not have had the finances to do anything other than what they did), while others will not take the same risks, possibly because of a lack of experience or confidence, or just prudence.
But sailing is just not a difficult or particularly dangerous thing to do. It is not rocket science. After all, mankind has been sailing for over 6000 years, on some pretty rickety craft, at that.
Amen to that...... Especially the solo sailors...Add the French. Sailors there are rock stars
but the French boat designers and builders have always led the way since before the days of Nelson's Navy. Beautiful AND Fast! It was commonly accepted back then the french made the best boats, but the british were the best sailors and fighters. Yikes, that's another interesting topic.
Re: Are American Sailor More Over Cautious Then European Sai
I see glaring issues that should have kept that boat tied to the dock regardless of what country it hails from. That no one will stop it is beside the point. I dont see anything adventurous or courageous taking a boat out into the deep blue sea that has anywhere near that many issues. And I apologize, but if your friends certification and training didnt teach him to walk away from something that nasty, he hasnt learned much. In fact I would argue he's learned the opposite. He has learned he can get offshore in boats that are far, far below 100% and get away with it. Its a recipe for disaster to proceed down that path. If the fools make it across, it will only serve to reinforce that thinking.
I see glaring issues that should have kept that boat tied to the dock regardless of what country it hails from. That no one will stop it is beside the point. I dont see anything adventurous or courageous taking a boat out into the deep blue sea that has anywhere near that many issues. And I apologize, but if your friends certification and training didnt teach him to walk away from something that nasty, he hasnt learned much. In fact I would argue he's learned the opposite. He has learned he can get offshore in boats that are far, far below 100% and get away with it. Its a recipe for disaster to proceed down that path. If the fools make it across, it will only serve to reinforce that thinking.
So we saw them off tonight. They set sail about 5 minutes ago. We took them out for lobster before they left. Below is a picture of them having dinner and drinks.
They had a mechanic look at the boat and the positive and negative cables were reversed. Also the alternator was trashed. So $500 and a couple of days and the motor was purring.
They still have many issues but they are off. A toast with some Polish potato vodka and they were gone.
I wish them fair winds, following seas and a safe passage.
They had a mechanic look at the boat and the positive and negative cables were reversed. Also the alternator was trashed. So $500 and a couple of days and the motor was purring.
They still have many issues but they are off. A toast with some Polish potato vodka and they were gone.
I wish them fair winds, following seas and a safe passage.
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I'll give you the fact you have 50 years experience. But I have seen and worked around aircraft and aircraft owners with the same kind of attitudes and opinions. They fly stuff that is not legal, aircraft that should be grounded, aircraft with inoperative equipment, filthy dirty greasy heaps an FAA inspector would ground in a heart beat.
I have heard all the same excuses by those people, that if they didnt do it someone else would. Sorry, that is not an excuse, its a cop out. You want to tell me sailing is any different? Men drown. Ships sink. Some claim there are more than 7000 ship wrecks on the Great Lakes. Bad weather, overloaded, poor equipment, etc.., conditions can change and too many who thought they had it made found themselves in the teeth of something that was out to take them from this Earth. So while there are certainly no guarantees in life, being reckless or foolish and haphazard should not be the goal we strive toward. 6000 years should have taught us more than that.
But the bottom line is after all- their life, their rules.
As long as if doesn't affect you, so what?
Blondie Hassler (ever hear of him) refused to carry a radio transmitter. When asked what would happen if he had a problem, he answered
"I shall drown like a gentleman"
As long as if doesn't affect you, so what?
Blondie Hassler (ever hear of him) refused to carry a radio transmitter. When asked what would happen if he had a problem, he answered
"I shall drown like a gentleman"
apples and oranges AGAIN
About the only similarity I can think of between airplanes and sailboats is that they both use compasses to navigate with should all else fail.
Why is it so many people on these sailing forums keep trying to make an opinion using apples and oranges. Sure I could probably fix most things that went wrong on an airplane, but most likely NOT in the few seconds that it would take to fall out of the sky. And if a boat I'm operating breaks (or whatever) I'm not going to fall on your house and kill your family, am I?
Even a dis-masted sailboat can be rerigged with some sort of jury rig and sailed a few thousand miles to safety. I met some sailors who sailed 1000 miles to weather with a 12" hole in the bow from a telephone pole.
I certainly did not seek out the crappy jobs, but somehow I had to get a daughter through college and feed my family. Where's the "cop out" in that?
I've never asked another person to risk their life to come and rescue me, nor would I ever. Those who sail with me today aboard my sailboat, which is a pleasure vessel, not a commercial one, are told that, up front. If we go out on the sea to play, we do not ask others to risk their lives to save us; we will do it ourselves, or die. This is no joke to me. It is one of my most important principals.
Those rescuers have families of their own, and lives worth more than the idiots who go out there on the ocean, unprepared and unknowledgeable to the point of stupidity, then seek help when they get into trouble. Remember "The Perfect Storm"? Those guys died because the 2 girls on the sailboat got scared. They were NEVER in ANY danger. The boat was found in fine condition after the storm, but their rescuers we not.
Maybe I've been lucky (there is no good captain who has no luck), maybe I'm not too bad at my chosen profession or maybe, just maybe Neptune actually likes the capable adventurers in His domain?
About the only similarity I can think of between airplanes and sailboats is that they both use compasses to navigate with should all else fail.
Why is it so many people on these sailing forums keep trying to make an opinion using apples and oranges. Sure I could probably fix most things that went wrong on an airplane, but most likely NOT in the few seconds that it would take to fall out of the sky. And if a boat I'm operating breaks (or whatever) I'm not going to fall on your house and kill your family, am I?
Even a dis-masted sailboat can be rerigged with some sort of jury rig and sailed a few thousand miles to safety. I met some sailors who sailed 1000 miles to weather with a 12" hole in the bow from a telephone pole.
I certainly did not seek out the crappy jobs, but somehow I had to get a daughter through college and feed my family. Where's the "cop out" in that?
I've never asked another person to risk their life to come and rescue me, nor would I ever. Those who sail with me today aboard my sailboat, which is a pleasure vessel, not a commercial one, are told that, up front. If we go out on the sea to play, we do not ask others to risk their lives to save us; we will do it ourselves, or die. This is no joke to me. It is one of my most important principals.
Those rescuers have families of their own, and lives worth more than the idiots who go out there on the ocean, unprepared and unknowledgeable to the point of stupidity, then seek help when they get into trouble. Remember "The Perfect Storm"? Those guys died because the 2 girls on the sailboat got scared. They were NEVER in ANY danger. The boat was found in fine condition after the storm, but their rescuers we not.
Maybe I've been lucky (there is no good captain who has no luck), maybe I'm not too bad at my chosen profession or maybe, just maybe Neptune actually likes the capable adventurers in His domain?
Re: Are American Sailor More Over Cautious Then European Sai
Sure, they are free to do as they will. But are they going to call the CG if things get too hairy and ask others to risk their life to help save them?
Its one thing if they did a decent job rigging it up and shipped out with a fairly solid boat under them. Then if they get into trouble its not through any gross negligence.
Its a completely different thing if they went out with something with so many issues you cant count them all, which is gross negligence, and run into a life threatening situation. I see nothing noble, brave, courageous, or adventurous at all in any of that. Its just simply, dumb.
Sure, they are free to do as they will. But are they going to call the CG if things get too hairy and ask others to risk their life to help save them?
Its one thing if they did a decent job rigging it up and shipped out with a fairly solid boat under them. Then if they get into trouble its not through any gross negligence.
Its a completely different thing if they went out with something with so many issues you cant count them all, which is gross negligence, and run into a life threatening situation. I see nothing noble, brave, courageous, or adventurous at all in any of that. Its just simply, dumb.
Addendum to my #7 Posting - GOING FOREIGN
My last posting #7 applied only to sailing in home i.e. waters. For those wishing to 'go foreign' and sail in the sea area controlled by another country, what is known as the HOC (Helmsman's Overseas Certificate) is needed. Originally these could be issued by one's own yacht or sailing club and simply consisted of an official vouching for the abilities of the individual being able to sail relatively well and safely. The RYA (Royal Yachting Association) arranged for this and, since then inflation has occurred - driven by the sailing schools, others desirous of increasing all types of rules and regulations an indeed the RYA itself.
Now, before going overseas, one needs a ticket. If the helmsman doesn't have even the lowest level of current voluntary certification, normally required by boat chartering firms anyway, then it is necessary to take an oral plus a practical test. These are easy for all experienced sailors and cover things like the COLREGS, ability to handle a boat, come alongside and not get involved in collisions. Also to wear a lifejacket, though this is not mandatory (yet) except in Ireland!
I don't know how American sailors would fare chartering in Europe but the charter company would require evidence of some formal training just to protect their own boat.
As far as I know Americans arriving on their own bottoms are not subject to anything more than the normal passport and customs rigours.
As noted in my previous all inland lakes and most rivers require a certificate known as a CEVENI which can be taken on line.
My last posting #7 applied only to sailing in home i.e. waters. For those wishing to 'go foreign' and sail in the sea area controlled by another country, what is known as the HOC (Helmsman's Overseas Certificate) is needed. Originally these could be issued by one's own yacht or sailing club and simply consisted of an official vouching for the abilities of the individual being able to sail relatively well and safely. The RYA (Royal Yachting Association) arranged for this and, since then inflation has occurred - driven by the sailing schools, others desirous of increasing all types of rules and regulations an indeed the RYA itself.
Now, before going overseas, one needs a ticket. If the helmsman doesn't have even the lowest level of current voluntary certification, normally required by boat chartering firms anyway, then it is necessary to take an oral plus a practical test. These are easy for all experienced sailors and cover things like the COLREGS, ability to handle a boat, come alongside and not get involved in collisions. Also to wear a lifejacket, though this is not mandatory (yet) except in Ireland!
I don't know how American sailors would fare chartering in Europe but the charter company would require evidence of some formal training just to protect their own boat.
As far as I know Americans arriving on their own bottoms are not subject to anything more than the normal passport and customs rigours.
As noted in my previous all inland lakes and most rivers require a certificate known as a CEVENI which can be taken on line.
Re: Are American Sailor More Over Cautious Then European Sai
Talk about courses and training, i am both RYA Yachtmaster and USCG 50 ton captain licensed.All RYA courses are on the water, 5 days with instructor then 2 days with examiner, they do differentiate between tidal and non tidal qualifications. My USCG had no on water component, was a paper exam with an honesty system of calculating days at sea (4 hours is a day). RYA dont count any time unless you spent the night on the boat, and not in home port (24 hours is a day). The differences between the two cultures are vast.
Talk about courses and training, i am both RYA Yachtmaster and USCG 50 ton captain licensed.All RYA courses are on the water, 5 days with instructor then 2 days with examiner, they do differentiate between tidal and non tidal qualifications. My USCG had no on water component, was a paper exam with an honesty system of calculating days at sea (4 hours is a day). RYA dont count any time unless you spent the night on the boat, and not in home port (24 hours is a day). The differences between the two cultures are vast.
I am just a little confused you are all concerned about safety and boat condition but you take them out for "dinner and drinks" just before they depart and toast it off with Polish potato vodka ?? Great now there is a questionable boat as well as two questionable operators !!
Re: Are American Sailor More Over Cautious Then European Sai
I think vodka to them is like water to us, no?
I think vodka to them is like water to us, no?
geezus dude, get off your highhorse. Scott's just poking a little fun. Don't know if you've met many eastern europeans... but they all seem to have a very high tolerance for alcohol....
Re: Are American Sailor More Over Cautious Then European Sai
I had 2 cold beers while sailing just last night. Moderation and situational awareness is always the key. I don't think being drunk is a good way to start a voyage, but I doubt they drank too much vodka. How much they drink on their voyage is anybody's guess. But, I still contend that vodka to them is probably like mother's milk ... (I am stil being irreverent).
JK made friends with some foreign sailors and he is concerned about them setting sail in a boat that is less than perfect. They were going to go regardless ... I see nothing wrong with sending them off in good spirit and fellowship!
I had 2 cold beers while sailing just last night. Moderation and situational awareness is always the key. I don't think being drunk is a good way to start a voyage, but I doubt they drank too much vodka. How much they drink on their voyage is anybody's guess. But, I still contend that vodka to them is probably like mother's milk ... (I am stil being irreverent).
JK made friends with some foreign sailors and he is concerned about them setting sail in a boat that is less than perfect. They were going to go regardless ... I see nothing wrong with sending them off in good spirit and fellowship!
Saying "Europe" is like saying "Western Hemisphere" - it's much too generic. It is true in many countries such as eastern/central Europe the culture is much more "seat of the pants" oriented. It's not unusual to read about motor/flying/boating accidents that have a strong "WTF were they thinking?" flavor. And if/when things go south, the survivors/witnesses shrug their shoulders.
This sounds a bit like that.
This sounds a bit like that.
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