And so it begins
- Thread starter 25yearslater
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I got nuthin Todd. I have to run my little Stanley portable heater to accomplish anything. Here's a pic of what they look like all sanded flush and ready for the overcoating of gelcoat. The outboard holes can be through bolted as they can be accessed through the gap between the hull and cabin liner. I am amazed at how strong this worked out. This was an adaptation of the hardware bonding from the Fiberglass Boat Repair and Maintenance manual by West Systems. I will also pop up a few of the hatch 0/90 cloth reinforment. A quick sanding and I'll paint this on the inside and regelcoat the outside. The extra layer of knytex makes it strong enough for a hippo to dance on.
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Hey I may have a few extra pounds but I take offense at being called a hippo.
When I first looked at the picture on the left and the previous post I was thinking you cought a catfish. Looks like two eyeballs.
What you are on to is exactly how the aircraft industry embeds inserts into composite structures to mount hardware. Too many boat manufactureres screw stuff directly into the deck skin with wood screws and they have almost no strength at all. Your solution is elegant and exactly the right approach. The greater the size the better for the insert. Even if you can hang off it you need a safety factor of about 10. Getting thrown across the deck when slammed by a huge breaking wave will cause you to hit the lifeline or stanchion with an immense force. Through bolts with a big backing plate are still better.
When I first looked at the picture on the left and the previous post I was thinking you cought a catfish. Looks like two eyeballs.
What you are on to is exactly how the aircraft industry embeds inserts into composite structures to mount hardware. Too many boat manufactureres screw stuff directly into the deck skin with wood screws and they have almost no strength at all. Your solution is elegant and exactly the right approach. The greater the size the better for the insert. Even if you can hang off it you need a safety factor of about 10. Getting thrown across the deck when slammed by a huge breaking wave will cause you to hit the lifeline or stanchion with an immense force. Through bolts with a big backing plate are still better.
Thanks jibes. It does look like a fish now that you mention it. I suppose if I had been on the ball I might have considered imbedding a backer plate in the area instead of balsa coring and the post installation of the T nuts. Rethinking this in light of your comment, the leverage applied at the top of the stantion is gonna result in a lot of torque. A safety factor of 10/1 sounds reasonable even for a lightweight like me in conditions where those things are needed most. The T nuts can also be upsized say 5/16 or 3/8 thread which have larger flanges. I'm thinking of cobbing together a test piece to mount horizontally for the sake of curiosity to see how long a stantion I can hang from before it fails. The ideal would be the stantion bends before the hardware pulls free. I did have the primary purpose in mind that being; elevating the lifelines is to provide a higher chance of grabbing them in conditions you describe to save life and sacrifice the stantion. The conditions most encountered are the overzealous crew or yard worker using them to move the boat. If this works for that I'm a happy kid.
The shock stress that Jibes describes is probably greater than the stress of longer duration of someone hiking out or holding on when moving around the boat but my stansions get the most stress from people getting on and off the boat at the dock. I know to grab the stays or grab rails but guest and family more often than not are grabbing a life line or stansion to leverage themselves onto the boat. The higher the boat is off the dock, the greater the stress. In reality this is propably the greatest wear and tear on the stansion hardware on most sailboats. Not being an engineer but I wonder if the shock load is greater than the hanging load of the largest derriere of my guests? I don't think I would be able to get a calculation of this without a mutiny.
By golly raj that's good. In retrospect the imbedded plate would have been the better idea. Your obsevation of the boarding of guests is another factor I hadn't considered. With the feedback thus far it confirms something philosophical I believe, that being, the more observers of a problem, the greater the probability of finding the best solution. Thanks, and I enjoyed the humor in that post.
:dance:So just to see before I go through the rigamorole of gelcoating this thing, can it take the stress test. Yup even though my light beeehind isn't much of a test I did put some rocks in my pocket just to make sure. It is steewrong. In other news Gibco Flex Mold also comes in male patterns in the Oday 312. I have placed the order for a 3'8" X 6' piece of the GFBW312N from www.minicraft.com Paul Lacharite there is an easy guy to get along with and very prompt. Their prices are also very reasonable. From this piece I can skip the gelcoat pattern and pour the urethane on it and cut out the patterns that I will use to imprint the deck saving a huge amount of coin and time in the process. They also have a great step by step tutorial on their website that I will be following verbatim. Soon as the weather warms back up that is. And thank you for the kind words jibes on your post on another thread.
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Did I miss something? You were a big fan of Mas Epoxies but now it looks like you've on to a new source with Minicraft. Is this due to price? It looks like Minicraft does not promote the deck crack repair process that mas promotes. Do you think it's because Minicraft patterns are not exact matches for the O'day diamond pattern that Mas has?
Minicraft's website is very busy and full of their own jargon and brand names. Maybe they have the same product as Mas but I'm not finding it.
Minicraft's website is very busy and full of their own jargon and brand names. Maybe they have the same product as Mas but I'm not finding it.
Hi Todd. I talked to MAS Epoxies again and had the price requoted as the order was ready to be placed. In the interim I checked other sources as I like everyone else am cost conscious. I contacted Gibco for vendors for the same exact product I was looking for. They won't sell direct to individuals but provided 3 additional distributors. After contacting each, Minicraft came in with the best price by far. I had seen their website as I am undecided about color, waxed or unwaxed, duratec additives and blah buh blah buh blah. This gelcoat stuff is gonna drive me goofier than I am now. Anyway they had a wonderful tutorial on using these patterns. They also custom match colors and offer a dizzying array of colors. So that's how I ended up at Minicraft. I also saw Minicraft mentioned as one of the gelcoats used by West Systems to see if it would indeed bond to epoxy in one of their articles. Like I said Paul Lacharite is a great guy to work with and I am grateful as all getout for his patience and technical advise. At this point he is to gelcoat and stuff what Rudy is to Oday. So anyway I am using Valspar Stone to recolor the hatch inside. This is a textured product that hides a host of sins and looks really cool. It does have to be sealed with the Valspar clear sealer for outdoor applications. I had tried Rustoleum but it bubbled up and wrinkled the primer which was also Rustoleum. This isn't the only time I have run in to this when using their product. The Valspar works easy enough even for a slop artist like me. So here's the pics and the color is Alabaster #11439.
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You sure have sold me. Sounds like a great company looking out for guys like us. By the way , I began some of my work on the 39. The plan was to hold off work until after my daughter's wedding in July but the long winter got to me. I removed all the doors, drawers, cabinet doors and stripped and refinished them. Three coats of Captains clear varnish and two of Epefaines rubbed effect. Wow, the effect is stunning. Does your boat have the plastic corners on the joinery? Mine are covered with years of dirt and teak oil. I'm not sure what the original finish or look was. It looks like they may have once been painted.
What are your plans to do with them?
What are your plans to do with them?
Hi again Todd. I'm replacing just about all the woodwork. The previous owners butchered it pretty much the same as the cabin liner. I'm replacing it with mahogany that I stain with Minwax 'fruitwood' and then hit it a couple of times with the Minwax wiping polyurethane satin. It matches the the Okoume stained with fruitwood and polyurethaned and mimics a light teak color. All my corner joinery are wood but alas they are colored in ways I can't get out no matter sanding, bleaching or recoloring. Only six pieces of the woodwork are original. Right now I'm starting on squaring away the bow and stern pulpits. I work with a fantastic welder and will be welding in a new upright on the bow as one slammed the dock at some point and bent the hell out of it. The stern pulpit had the chrome plated stuff on bronze and was a cut and paste sort of affair. One previous owner bent the uprights rather than installed an appropiately angle base. My new vent cowls arrived, purchased at Oday owners store. They are the Sea Dog Line stainless and plastic base. They actually aren't a bad product considering they are inexpensive and stamped. OK, OK not original but damn snazzy. Now I can position the pulpit bases and imbed the T nuts for attachment after the gelcoat. The person who installed the pulpit originally hacked up the nicro plastic vents to put the monster base in that location. So to conclude for today the link for the flex mold patterns available is www.gibcoflexmold.com/products.asp
Joe, I think you chose well with the Minwax wiping poly. I've used 3/4 of a gallon of Captains to fill the grain completely and 3/4 of a quart of the Epefanes rubbed effect to do just the items I could remove. It will cost me well over $300 in varnish for the interior. Minwax would have saved me 3/4 and gave me 90% of the effect.
It's a stunning look but lots of work and $$$. I'm thinking the effect will make up for the lack of wood in the interior. Make the most of what's there.
Thanks for the link to the flex mold patterns
It's a stunning look but lots of work and $$$. I'm thinking the effect will make up for the lack of wood in the interior. Make the most of what's there.
Thanks for the link to the flex mold patterns
You're very welcome Todd. I hope the transfer from the male flex mold sheet to the urethane female works as well as the test piece. It sure will save some huge coin as I can chop up the urethane rather than the high dollar stuff. Well I removed the bent upright on the bow pulpit, and a pound of flesh in the process, but everything is set for welding. I made up a jig out of some scrap bulkhead to position the bases in their exact positions. Taking measurements from YOT and transferring them to the plywood the pulpit is held in place so it should wind up a bolt on affair with no extra drilling required. The scrap under the base without stantion is cut at 10 degrees and oriented as a mirror image of the other side. After some cutting and filing to fit, everything is set up to make quick work of the welding and tuck it away ready for the time it will be reinstalled.
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As I crouch in awe before my 3'8" X 6' piece of flex mold the soon to come visions of a completed port deck fill my mind. Such beauty and precision beckon me as a far off horizon beckons a sailor. And if that ain't laying it on a bit thick. The next step will be to bond it to a nice flat surface. It comes with adhesive already applied for bonding to a plug. Friday the molding urethane will arrive and the female molds will begin. From these I will be cutting the shapes that will be applied to the gelcoat on the deck. But first I will be testing the firmer urethane to insure it's suitability as well as a few practice pours off the boat. So stay tuned, more to come shortly.
I don't think I've ever crouched in awe before. I also don't have any idea what you are talking about. Are you making something to then bond onto the deck or are you making a pattern to press into the gelcoat to make a non-skid pattern in the gelcoat? I am terribly confused by your description of the process. Meanwhile I am embarking on a grand excursion into the wonders of epoxy this very evening. My new shaft for my three wood just arrived and I will be bonding it into the head tonight with MAS epoxy mixed with microballoons. The microballoons fill the gap and ensure the shaft is centered in the hole. I should be smashing fairway shots by Saturday morning.
Hi jibes. Here we go Panta Rei I know you're interested in this. OK, here's the plan. Step 1: Affix adhesive backed 'male' flex mold to some cheap melamine coated masonite. The flex mold does have ridges from shipping and this gives a nice flat surface to start from.
Step 2: Lightly coat with poly ease 2300
Step 3: Pour RTV Urethane over flex mold. Tech note: 12 oz each hardener and resin yields 24 X 36 inch area.
I am currently pouring the 74-30 urethane for testing. The 75-60 urethane arrives tomorrow for it's testing. Which ever yields the least stretch/best pattern transfer will be the one I use.
Step 4: Prepare a test of the molds to familiarize myself with the procedure.
Step 5: Pour remaining molds required to imprint deck in gelcoat.
Step 6: Cut urethane molds to appropriate shapes from starboard deck by laying them with the pattern up thereby creating the mirror image that is the port deck. 4 separate molds are required per side of the deck only. Despite having the measurements I wasn't so bold as to begin work on the starboard side until it's mirror image was complete.
Step 7: Pour the gelcoat and imprint the deck with the urethane molds.
So this is the plan and it had better work or the boss will cut off the funding for another colossal blunder. It will be Kiwi Grip if it doesn't. At 500.00 for this sheet I don't think the budget could stand the 1200.00 or more for a female flex mold to do it. So keep your fingers crossed as this may just provide a permanent fix for imprinting gelcoat nonskid work at a substantial savings.
So the short answer is I am making my own female molds and preserving the flex mold for sale or future use.
Step 2: Lightly coat with poly ease 2300
Step 3: Pour RTV Urethane over flex mold. Tech note: 12 oz each hardener and resin yields 24 X 36 inch area.
I am currently pouring the 74-30 urethane for testing. The 75-60 urethane arrives tomorrow for it's testing. Which ever yields the least stretch/best pattern transfer will be the one I use.
Step 4: Prepare a test of the molds to familiarize myself with the procedure.
Step 5: Pour remaining molds required to imprint deck in gelcoat.
Step 6: Cut urethane molds to appropriate shapes from starboard deck by laying them with the pattern up thereby creating the mirror image that is the port deck. 4 separate molds are required per side of the deck only. Despite having the measurements I wasn't so bold as to begin work on the starboard side until it's mirror image was complete.
Step 7: Pour the gelcoat and imprint the deck with the urethane molds.
So this is the plan and it had better work or the boss will cut off the funding for another colossal blunder. It will be Kiwi Grip if it doesn't. At 500.00 for this sheet I don't think the budget could stand the 1200.00 or more for a female flex mold to do it. So keep your fingers crossed as this may just provide a permanent fix for imprinting gelcoat nonskid work at a substantial savings.
So the short answer is I am making my own female molds and preserving the flex mold for sale or future use.
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Cue the music. Hail the conquering hero, la, la, la, la. As tears of joy stream down my cheeks I am happy to report it is possible to make female molds using the 74-30 urethane rubber. After a disasterous first attempt; where I didn't use enough Poly Ease release agent and jumped the demold time gun the second round has achieved the desired results. I also incorporated fiberglass window screen; available from any big box store, just to make sure the stretch was controlled. First a layer of urethane was spread on the flex mold and allowed to become firm yet sticky about 3 hours at 80 degrees. The screen was layed down on this and lightly coated with more urethane or about half the amount of the first pour. After curing for 16 hours, still jumping the gun on demold time, peeling the result from the flex mold yields a very detailed sheet of female pattern about 1/32 thick. The rub is, too much release agent and detail is lost, to little and get ready for a clean up chore that's nerve wracking as you clean the urethane from your very expensive flex mold. Experiment with small areas to get the feel of it. I will be switching to the 75-60 urethane today to see how stiff it works out but the 74-30 should be adequate. Step 3: check. 
