A proper yacht?

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Richard Frehs

Harlot/queen

God bless you Larry. I have a 2002 Hunter 170 and it took me 50 years to stop arm chair sailing and make it happen. I think she is very beautiful and get many compliments from much younger female sailors. The open transom is a great safety factor for an older guy like me. I treat her like a goddess. Infact, if I placed all the "stuff" I have purchased for her, on her hull, she would probably sink! I would love to own a Swan, but know I would have to sell everything I have worked for all my life to do it. Not worth it to me.
 
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Tom S.

Speaking of "Proper Yachts" and ocean sailing

I saw something very interesting about the Caribbean 1500 race I was previously mentioning. I went back and looked at the results from 2002 and 2003 races. As I said before the 2002 race had pretty tough conditions. You can read someones first hand account here (someone in jboat did just 2 hours better in corrected time than the C42 and he ended up motoring more than the C42) http://www.jboats.com/j42/j42carib15002.htm But the really interesting thing is that there were some boats that had problems and "Did Not Finish" and were diverted to Bermuda and they were some Big Name - Big $$ boats. ~~ Tayana 65, Island Packet 350, Leapord 47 Catamaran in 2002 and Wormwood 55 Catamaran, Swan MKII 44 and a Hylas 44/42 in 2003 (No Beneteau, Catalina were DNF either year and just 1 Hunter passage 450) I don't have all the details of why all the boats were DNF, but the skipper of the C42 La Buona Vita, whom I know, says a few of those boats had major problems like steering/rudder and forestay stanchions break, etc http://www.carib1500.com/c1500/2002pos/latest.htm http://www.caribbeanracing.com/artman/publish/article_174.shtml http://www.carib1500.com/c1500/news2003.htm All something to think about when people might try & look down their noses when you sail into that yacht club in a classic production boat.
 
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Brian

high end

I think almost everyone (notice I said almost) agrees that production boats compared to high end semi custom boats are apples and oranges. But what about the larger Catalinas, Hunters and Beneteaus (such as the 47-50's). From my understanding these larger boats are more customized than the mid 30 to 42 foot range production runs and are more intended for blue water work. I think this would be more like apples to apples as far as intended purpose goes. How do these Catalinas stack up? I am asking, because I really have no idea.
 
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Ed

Tom, Amels may be just right

One of my goals is to live in southern Europe and sail the Med. Amels (made in France) seem to have just the right features and are supposed to be a breeze (pardon the pun) to sail, even single handed. Occasionally, older ones are listed for less than $200k, and they don't seem to need much to fit them out for passagemaking. That's still a bit over my budget, but if my stocks and mutuals bounce way back, who knows? ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
 
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Andreas Weidlich

Jaguar or Saturn?

Very simple: if, after 20 years on the water, your Swan, Baltic or Hinckley still holds a higher market price than a new production boat equal its size, then chances are you've got yourself a fine boat. Or would you expect to drive a Jaguar for the price of a Saturn? But then not everybody needs a serious blue water cruiser/racer so the Saturn may just be your thing. But don't forget: you get what you pay for. Andreas
 
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Frank Ward

Top brands charge more than they need to

It's like any other business, a luxury or highly recognized top brand can get more for their product. It doesn't exactly make it fair if you are saving your nickels and dimes for a Swan, but it is the truth of merchandising and marketing. Do you think that Louis Vuitton needs to sell a handbag for $800 to $1400 to make a profit? They don't, but it sure gives them a chance to buy expensive clasps for the bags and top rate advertising and every once in a while enhance thier image by sponsoring a sailboat race. On these boats some of the extra money is undoutably spent in use of exotic materials and custom fittings along with higher quality levels but I believe the major part of the price is reflected in much higher salaries for their workers, record high profit margins and to a lesser degree the recently unfavorable exchange rate for Americans. (In successful European companies labor costs have risen out of sight. I have heard some unbelievable stories about Mercedes and Rolex skilled workers also don't forget there is a new purchaser of Swan who will be wanting to get his return on investment.)
 
Fred Ficarra

Fred Ficarra

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Dec 2, 2003
4,245
- - Seabeck WA
Ed, are you French?

Just wondering. Amels are. (oh, I see you knew that) We were invited aboard a new one at anchor in Tobago, three years ago. The new owners were proud. Nothing aboard the boat was made by a company, other than a French one. Even the turnbuckles were weird.
 
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Ed

No, just a Europhile

Originally, my family came from Spain, via Puerto Rico. My wife is 100% pure Greek. The tentative plan is to move to Greece, buy a boat there and sail the Aegean, Adriatic and eastern Med. We'll head west when we become better aquainted with our new surroundings. ;^) ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
 
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Malcolm Clyde

The REAL debate

This debate has been all about custom vs production. The REAL debate is Catalina vs Beneteau vs Hunter isn't it?? Are there any real differences? Is it really just East coast vs West coast vs Europhiles? Has anyone done a REAL BOAT TEST comparing say Catalina 470 with Beneteau 473 with Hunter 466?? Pros/cons/value for money etc etc
 
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Bob

There will always be

a market for the very best that can be produced, and there will always be a bigger market for something that offers 60% of the quality for 20% of the price. There will always be those whose resources and skills demand the best that can be produced, cost no object, whether it be skis, automobiles, aircraft, or sailboats. There will always be those who need need to be surrounded by high-end labeled products to remind themselves and others that they are important. Perhaps this discussion isn't so much about boats as it is about people. Good thing we don't all love the same woman, eh?
 
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Ron

Check this out

Go to this site and match a Swan 36 to a Hunter H37C and see if it's worth the money to you. Maybe it is..... but not to me. There isn't ten cents worth of difference between an H37C and an Island Packet 38 Especially look at the comfort factor.....Hmmmmm!
 
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Larry Long

Numbers Lie

I compared the Swan 36 to the Watkins 36 I used to own. The Watkins was the worst sailing boat I have ever been on. Yet, the chart makes the Watkins look comperable to the Swan. I'm sure that anyone who paid what the Swan 36 costs would never tolerate such mediocrity.
 
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Ron

Larry...Hmmmmm

I recently did a race aboard an Island packet 38 and those numbers are right on. I own an H37C. Number don't lie. It's calculated fact! Maybe both are slugs!
 
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Tom S.

Ron, there is 10 cents worth of difference

While comparing a Watkins to a Swan is ludicrous (couldn't you buy about 100 Watkins for that one Swan?) saying that there isn't any difference between a H37C and an IP38 just shows a extreme bias. There are differences and major ones, one being the original H37C came with gatevalves instead of proper seacocks and originally came with plastic ports, etc, etc Larry L, one more thing when comparing "numbers" to get relative sailing qualities you have to look at ALL the numbers, not just the LOA of a boat. The numbers on these two boats couldn't be any different. The comparison of the Swan with a Watkins is unfair. One is a modified full keel with shoal draft and the Swan is a very deep keel with spade rudder. Lets see you take that Swan 36 gunkholing, lets see you try and anchor that Swan within 100 yards of the shore on the Chesapeake. Can you even SAIL the swan 36 ANYWHERE in the Chesapeake !?! It has almost a 7 FOOT DRAFT for chrissakes ! *pop And don't go to the delusion of thinking Swans are perfect and without problems. Here is a relatively new Swan 36 with 2 years of electrical problems that someone couldn't fix ! http://www.swanowners.com/discussion/_disc1/00000228.htm A better comparison of a Watkins sailing qualities would be to compare it to an IP
 
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Ron

Tom S.

Okay... You got me on the plastic ports, etc. I was talking about handling, but I didn't make that clear. The IP38 I was on was a beautiful brick. It was solid and well built, but performed poorly. Handling sails with that small space between the headstay and staysail stay was a nightmare. Someone always had to go forward to walk it through. And yes, I am bias... I admit it, but listening to everyone bash a really good boat because it didn't cost 500K does take a toll on a bias guy. Please forgive me and I'm done with this discussion. It has gotten way out of hand and I helped get it there.... Enjoy the water on whatever you sail.... Ron P.S. I live in Houston, but am flying in to CT tomorrow. Please, turn off the snow!
 
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Vincent

About That Mercedes Comparison

I was laughing about the comparison of the Swan as the Mercedes and the Hunter as the Hundai. I happen to own a Mini Cooper (list price $20,000) and a Mercedes S class (560SL). After you get past the nameplate, as far as ride and repairs, the MINI wins hands down. With todays technology, I don't think the differences are as big as they used to be. As mentioned, the suppliers for major components (engine, electronics, winches) is the same for both the high end and the low end, so the only differences is the name plate (vanity plate) and the basic hull and deck construction. Agreed, the finish work might me nicer, but is it worth $500,000 more? Also of mention is whether any of the responders on Swans or other high end boats have sailed any Hunters or Beneteau in the last year or so, as the quality and fitness of these has improved immensely and I find most that down them have not been on or sailed one lately and sometimes, never, just passing along old stories.
 
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David Perkins

Status Symbol

Thats really all it amounts to when you go for the bigger than the guy in the next slip .. everyone has to be one size bigger or better. all of them floats and sails reasonably well, while some may not be 'bluewater' boats each and every one fulfills there duty as a 'sailboat'. So if you cant afford a half million dollar boat buy what you can afford and smile when you pass them under sail and enjoy knowing you dont owe the bank your next 10 years pay. also the full keel models when they sink Davy Jones has a new play toy. Most of the smaller sailboats with daggerboards and swing keels will float full of water. at least gives you something to hang onto. just my other 2 cents worth on this subject.
 
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Ed

Vincent, don't kid yourself.

That SL is and will always be the better car. The proof can be seen on the track, and with its respective value (depreciation rate) 10, 20, or even 30 years from now. There is little doubt the MB will make it to age 30, but there is serious doubt the Mini-Cooper (or almost anything else) can. Let me put it another way, if you knew you were going to be involved in an accident, which vehicle would you rather be in - The SL or the Mini? :^( The same is true of robustly built boats vs. production boats built to meet some engineering standards, and not much more. Higher quality boat builders DO spend more to make their hulls stronger, which usually means safer, especially when the going gets really rough. ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
 
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Gord May

Bently-Rolles

From the FWIW column: I used to have a customer who drove a Bentley (maybe R/R) convertable. When I “oohed”, he advised me that he couldn’t afford to drive a “Caddie” or Lincoln. Should he spend $40K on one of those, it’d be worth perhaps $20K in a few years. Whereas, when he spent $150K on a Bentley, it’d be worth $175K in a few years. It pays to be rich(er) :)
 
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