A proper yacht?

[Guy Incognito]

Mercedes comparison dealy, and more

On that Mini coop and car comparison, the Mini has the backing of BMW and is a great little car. It's NOT a Hunter/Cat - no way. The better comparison is between a Toy/Niss/Mitsu vs. Astin Martin/Ferrari/Lamborghini. There you have production versus semi-custom, along with 4 or 5 times the price. The productions cars are nice will do everything you need to do. The semi-custom jobies do the same but with out of this world performance, and interiors that make anyone go 'wooo'. Does that extra performance matter driving to the mall? Nope. But they aren't be driven by those kinda of folks. Is it the same with boats? To some degree I'd say yes. Is it worth the monies? Beats me. You only have that arguement when you don't have that kind of money to spend. If you have that sort of disposable income it doesn't matter. It just isn't an issue. Does status play a part? You bet. But then so does owning any sail boat. Sail boat owners are in a very small minority of - lucky - folks. One calls an owner of a Swan a snob, the next person calls the owner of ANY sail boat a snob. It's all a matter of perspective. But is it worth it...yes. If you have the money of course it is. Cheers, Guy Incognito

 

[mike]

yes you pay more

Yeah the big guys are over priced....But the hunter and catalina boats are put together with elmers glue and wood screws and photo copied teak soles and other incredibly cheap methods...There have been some good improvements in the lesser boats but still when you stand in a valiant 42 compared to hunter 45 if you can't tell the difference you shouldn't be allowed to buy a boat.

 

[Tom]

Who

Who opened the door to all these Swan yuppies? Last time I looked this wasn't Swan central. Go to a Swan site and argue whose wife has the better silicone breasts and leave us poor folk alone. We sail for fun not to be commodore of the yacht club... Bye Bye!

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Mike, come on, that was just a little bit extreme

Elmer's Glue? The wood screw part was meant to deride a fault. (which one) But wow, photo copied wood, you sound angry.

 

[Tom S.]

Mike, I think over exagerations really diminish

any point you are trying to make. Trying to imply that todays production boats are "put together with elmers glue and wood screws" is totally and factually wrong, misleading and libelous. They are more solidly built than ever. Show me a documented story of a recent production boat cracking in half and sinking during a seaway. I do agree that some of the details and workmanship are very different, but your statements are overboard.And don't think that all Valiants are a peach either, there are WELL documented cases of Valiants built during the late 70's and early 80's that had blistering so bad that some boats had to be scrapped for salvage, even though this article didn't mention it.http://www.boatus.com/jackhornor/sail/Valiant40.htm.But with that said I also will acknowledge its one of the few boats that have probably been to and sailed everyone around the globe.

 

[Fred Ficarra]

While on the subject of workmanship,

While at the Boats Afloat show in 2001 in Seattle, I went aboard a 40 something, used Hunter. All of the plywood exposed edges had no molding. I know, typical. But I noticed that every screw holding the panels and bulkheads in place was exposed. Not a plug to be found. I gotta admit, I was put off. Any comments? Not about the molding, we know that going in.

 

[Chris Burti]

Funny...Not!

I too, thought that I would stay out of this thread...but it has started falling into a "my Ford is better than ypur Chevy" shouting match, it has stirred some thoughts that I submit to try to steer the thread along further development. The interesting thing to me is that I've always considered that the named boats in Gary's query were production boats. For me, the two builders of what I think of as epitome of the proper yacht, fall into the limited production category (I've always been a bit dubious of one-off designs) and are not included. Those builders are Cherubini and Hinckley. I am pretty sure Cherubini is out of production which may say something about the willigness of sailors to pay for high quality. For those who think snob appeal is what sets the pricing, you should read up on the history of Cherubini. Their strategy was to break-even on the cost/price of a new yacht because they made their profit on refitting. Of all Cherubini's built, only one was lost at sea and all that were resold went for more than their original price. Hinckley is still around and are concentrating on the expansion of their Yacht Services and powerboats to stay around. In their pursuit of quality they have abandoned traditional 'robust' building methods. Instead of overbuilding the hulls to compensate for inherent deficiencies in traditional layup methods, they are utilizing SCRIMP(c) technology to produce a stronger, higher quality hull (interstingly enough at a lower cost).Having your craftsmen hand select each piece of wood and having custom castings so that your bow cleat matches the taper of the toe-rail (as Hinckley does) is not necessary to building a beautiful, seaworthy yacht. But, it is expensive and those who know what they are buying, know that they are getting their money's worth in terms of true quality. Building to your customers wishes and needs doesn't mean low quality either (a favorite slam on the big three). Hinkley has always had excellent, good sailing, shoal draft, beautiful world cruisers. Those who buy for reasons of exclusivity (snob appeal) are seldom sailors and we are unlikely run across any but their captains and crews, so don't sweat them.I've been knocking about on boats for over four decades including owning, chartering, building, rebuilding them and even spending time in quality control and R&D for a manufacturer back in the Seventies. In those decades, I've spent time in the bowels of Hinkcleys, Swans, Hallberg Rassys, Pacific Seacraft and numerous others and have seen good, bad and indifferent work on many. My observation, and those of others, is that today, several of the upper eschelon yachts builders are lowering their standards where 'it don't show' and the high volume builders are increasing theirs. When I boarded my Catalina 320 for the first time last year, I was essentialy 'kicking tires' and really didn't plan on buying a late model boat. I was astounded by the quality (not to say that there aren't any serious deficiencies to my way of looking) ---for the money---. So much so, that I made an offer there and then. I'm sure that despite all of the various sailing lists' love for heckeling Hunter and Bendytoy (grin), that they enjoy similar quality. I can tell you that if my C320 had been built in the mid-seventies to today's standards, it would have been priced in the upper half of yacht prices for production yachts back then.Perhaps a proper yacht for a cruiser should not be defined by its price, but rather by its combined characteristics. Such as seaworthyness, seakindliness, ease of sailing shorthanded, comfort, reliability of systems, speed. Like the automobiles so commonly analogized here, resale value is a good indicater of true worth and of true quality. those builders who have stood the test of time should not be taken lightly nor should their products. Buy the best that you can afford and are willing to spend.What say ye, fellow pundits?

 

[Gord May]

I say 'aye'

Chris B:I wish I'd said that, or could put it as well as you did.Gord

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Chris, how do people like you find this site?

Phil, you need to send Chris and several others like him, some sort of 'thank you' cheer.

 

[Chris Burti]

Fred, I find it fascinating!

A thank you (other than to our sponsors) would be entirely inappropriate. I receive far more valuable information, humor, interesting conversation and comradarie than I could ever contribute. My thanks to all who make it so,

 

[Tom S.]

Fred, I think I might know the reason

for the exposed screws, well at least from one perspective.I have a '99 C36 and there are philips head screws everywhere and I thought the only reason they didn't "plug" the screw covers was the cost to have it done and finished. They are not everywhere and I certainly don't see any on the bulkheads or structural components and I don't see any exposed mouldings, But I did see them on the floorboards and things like the galley inset that houses the drawers, some panels, etc. After I started really crawling around my boat and adding things and upgrading, I realized having those screws available and being able to easily remove these items were a "godsend" in allowing access to unexposed area's of the boat. I added a thruhull for an A/C unit and it would have been a "bear" without the easy access/removal of items.Yeah I'm sure I could 'plug & cover' over the screwheads, but in my case why would I ever want to "semi-permanently" limit access to the hull, tanks or other things. One of the things I have learned about Catalina's is that everything (yes everything) that goes down below can be pulled out and replaced and fit thru the companionway without ripping open the companionway . That includes the engine, the oven, tanks, etc. To me that is a nice feature and I know people that have had a C36 about 20 years now and were able to take advantage of that.At least thats the way I see it on my boat and I won't comment on any others that I have not personally inspected.

 

[Vincent]

What about the ratings?

I was curious about the off shore ratings. Who does it and what does it entail, as I think the product yacht companies mostly have gotten off shore ratings for most of their larger boats.

 

[Phil Herring]

My thoughts exactly, Fred

Nice post, Chris!

 

[Todd Alt]

Fun Factor

The difference is there, but it sure wouldn't be worth the stress of the finances. I would rather have my little production 28 and money in my wallet, than be broke looking at my piece of art floating at the dock. I want to be able to have the cost of my boat be a zero factor in my life. If I had the big money for a Hinkley and it didn't effect the rest of my lifestyle to own it, I would love to have one. To say that a Hunter is of the same quality as a Hinkley seems ludicris, but not as obsurd as trying to own the Hinkley when it would be a financial burden.

 

[Wanderer138]

LIfe at the high end

If a high-end boat fulfills your particular desire (whether it's seakindliness or snob appeal at the yacht club dock) and you can afford the $750,000 price tag then it's certainly worth it...to you.Personally, my middle-class Joe-average value system tells me it's crazy to spend that kind of money when near-equal boats can be had for far less, but that's MY problem. I don't think rich people are wired the same way, They seek exclusivity (otherwise what would be the point of being rich?), they know its price and are willing to pay it. High-end manufacturers know this too, and are only too happy to satisfy the demand.Me? I'm happy knowing that I can enjoy the same things the big boys do at a fraction of the cost.PeterH23 "Raven"

 

[Bob Allen]

The benefits of assembly line production

Henry Ford's first car turned out great. A few investors came and they formed a company. This company and the next three companies Henry started were unsuccessful. This led Henry to switch from producing exotic & racing cars to regular cars. This is when he developed the Model T. It was inexpensive and could fit a family. Its cost was about $200 which even in 1924 was inexpensive. The assembly line was Henry Ford's masterpiece. Without it, only the priviliged would have cars.Executing a middle class lifestyle, I would like to thank Henry Luhrs, Frank Butler and Benjamin Beneteau for access to the world of affordable yachting.

 

[Terry]

Peter, we're all wired basically the same way...

The differences boil down to behavior and where you place the decimal point in the string of digits.Terry

 

[Rick D]

Thanks, Bob Allen

I think you just wrapped up this thread (...or I hope you did ) Rick D.

 

[Brooke Willson]

The law of diminishing returns

If I had the money to buy a Mercedes, I'd buy a Toyota (OK, maybe a Lexus, which is a Toyota dressed a little nicer). Check any user report -- the Toyota (or Honda) will last more miles with fewer repairs. On the Mercedes, you're paying a lot for that star on the hood.If I had the money to buy a Rolex, I'd buy a Seiko or the like. The Rolex is no more waterproof or rugged or accurate. You pay a lot for that little crown.If I had the money to buy an Oyster or Swan or Hinkley, I'd buy a Pacific Seacraft or Island Packet. Not cheap, but just as capable of a circumnavigation, and probably used more often for making passage. In fact, if you'll look at the berths on a PSY, they're clearly better designed for passage than queen-sized island beds.In everything, there is a point of diminishing returns. Of course the luxury boats (or cars, or houses, or watches, or clothes. . . etc.) often exhibit a fineness of detail lacking in less expensive boats. The issue is where extra money buys excess rather than safety or even quality. There are a lot of people around with more money than they know what to do with who buy the most expensive anything just because they can. If they had any soul, they'd buy a cheaper boat that would actually move more often and give the money to teach poor children to sail (love the suggestion!) or maybe just to feed and house them, or to some other worthwhile cause.And with regard to a boat as an investment: years ago the alternator on my VW Rabbit died and the nearest repair place was a Porsche/Audi dealer. While the alternator was being replaced, I waited in the showroom, talking to a salesman. Looking at what was then a $ 35,000 Porsche, I said, "Well, I guess you could see it as a good investment." With a wistful look on his face, the salesman replied, "Listen, nothing that can be totally destroyed five minutes after you drive it off the lot is a good investment."

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Rick, no such luck,,

Brooke, too bad about your alternator. If you were in my neighborhood I could have fixed it for you. About 95% of automotive alternator failure is just worn brushes. Five bucks will fix it. Five more bucks gets you new bearings. What did it cost you at the Porsche dealer?