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Amazingly fortunate
As I read these posts I can't help but reflect on how amazingly fortunate we all are to live in a time and society where this debate has any meaning. While most of us will never have an Oyster, we can imagine circumstances where it might be possible, or know people "like us" who have achieved their financial dreams. Can you imagine this discussion taking place a hundred years ago? Or in a different part of the world? Putting it all in perspective I can sit in the cockpit of my boat and think I'm the luckiest SOB in the world. The production boats for all of their faults, put the world within reach of all of us. Whether your glass is half full or half empty depends on your perspective. We all have riches available to us that the most powerful king could not have commanded even a few short years ago. Amazing.
As I read these posts I can't help but reflect on how amazingly fortunate we all are to live in a time and society where this debate has any meaning. While most of us will never have an Oyster, we can imagine circumstances where it might be possible, or know people "like us" who have achieved their financial dreams. Can you imagine this discussion taking place a hundred years ago? Or in a different part of the world? Putting it all in perspective I can sit in the cockpit of my boat and think I'm the luckiest SOB in the world. The production boats for all of their faults, put the world within reach of all of us. Whether your glass is half full or half empty depends on your perspective. We all have riches available to us that the most powerful king could not have commanded even a few short years ago. Amazing.
Treat the harlot like a queen
I try to treat my Hunter the same way I would treat the most expensive boat in the world. I believe the little production boat doesn't know she wasn't born a Swan. I have the cleanest, best equipped, best maintained Hunter 280 on the face of the Earth. Yes, I know she is "just a Hunter" but she doesn't know that and she behaves as she is treated.
I try to treat my Hunter the same way I would treat the most expensive boat in the world. I believe the little production boat doesn't know she wasn't born a Swan. I have the cleanest, best equipped, best maintained Hunter 280 on the face of the Earth. Yes, I know she is "just a Hunter" but she doesn't know that and she behaves as she is treated.
Do the MATH!!!
• Custom costs a lot of money. Anyone that’s had any work done on boat boat knows the hourly rates can add up quickly. • Using US rates $100000K @ $80/hr = 1250 hrs / 8 hr/day = 156 days or just over 2/3 man yr per $100K. • Engineering, rigging and materials, aside anyone who’s been fortunate enough to spend time on one of this upper end boats will notice a difference. Now you have to ask yourself how long would it take 1 man to achieve this? 225 days? I don’t think so. 2 men? I don’t know but this would be an additional $200K and let’s not forget we still have the additional cost for engineering, rigging and materials. • Now let’s look at profit margin. For simplicity let’s use 10% per boat. The $500K boat manufacturer makes $50K per boat the $150K boat manufacturer make $15K per boat. The little guy has to make 10 boats to one, but he has a much greater market sector than does the high end manufacturer. Hey, we don’t all drive a Mercedes. GM’s and Ford fit sector and fill the need. • Now let’s consider fitness for use. There’s no doubt in my mind that if I’m going off-shore I would rather have one of the high end boats, but there’s a lot of successful off-shore done with the Fords and GM’s also. • All I can say is thank you for the selection so we can all enjoy the sport with what we can afford and be presented with the option/dream of reinforcing our ego’s if the need be there.
• Custom costs a lot of money. Anyone that’s had any work done on boat boat knows the hourly rates can add up quickly. • Using US rates $100000K @ $80/hr = 1250 hrs / 8 hr/day = 156 days or just over 2/3 man yr per $100K. • Engineering, rigging and materials, aside anyone who’s been fortunate enough to spend time on one of this upper end boats will notice a difference. Now you have to ask yourself how long would it take 1 man to achieve this? 225 days? I don’t think so. 2 men? I don’t know but this would be an additional $200K and let’s not forget we still have the additional cost for engineering, rigging and materials. • Now let’s look at profit margin. For simplicity let’s use 10% per boat. The $500K boat manufacturer makes $50K per boat the $150K boat manufacturer make $15K per boat. The little guy has to make 10 boats to one, but he has a much greater market sector than does the high end manufacturer. Hey, we don’t all drive a Mercedes. GM’s and Ford fit sector and fill the need. • Now let’s consider fitness for use. There’s no doubt in my mind that if I’m going off-shore I would rather have one of the high end boats, but there’s a lot of successful off-shore done with the Fords and GM’s also. • All I can say is thank you for the selection so we can all enjoy the sport with what we can afford and be presented with the option/dream of reinforcing our ego’s if the need be there.
Prop Yatch
The really true difference between men and boys is the size and number of their toys...
The really true difference between men and boys is the size and number of their toys...
Whatever?
You don't always get what you pay for or what you can afford. If you have the money and you want everyone to know it, buy the most expensive boat on the market that you can afford. If you want people to think that you have your money because you are frugal, buy the least expensive well built boat with only the bells and whistles that you can use. If you just want to sail because you enjoy it, you buy what you can afford that will meet your immediate need or near future needs. Most sailors are in the last category and are usually a happier group to be with. No pretence here; what you see is what you get. Advice is free and horror stories as warnings from personal experiences are given out of care for other sailors' welfare.
You don't always get what you pay for or what you can afford. If you have the money and you want everyone to know it, buy the most expensive boat on the market that you can afford. If you want people to think that you have your money because you are frugal, buy the least expensive well built boat with only the bells and whistles that you can use. If you just want to sail because you enjoy it, you buy what you can afford that will meet your immediate need or near future needs. Most sailors are in the last category and are usually a happier group to be with. No pretence here; what you see is what you get. Advice is free and horror stories as warnings from personal experiences are given out of care for other sailors' welfare.
answers are all over the board
but, at the end of the day: the sunset is just a pretty from my Catalina as it is from the Swan anchored nearby!
I probally wont even give a second thought to wheter the Swan owners drinking a single malt or drinking the blended stuff as sun drops below the skyline!
but, at the end of the day: the sunset is just a pretty from my Catalina as it is from the Swan anchored nearby!
I probally wont even give a second thought to wheter the Swan owners drinking a single malt or drinking the blended stuff as sun drops below the skyline!Ed and his Rolex
My Casio cost nothing compared to your wife's Rolex. I invested the $$$ which did a lot better than your 25% loss. I retired at 54 to sail my Hunter 37C. So for all you cats with the Swans and Rolexs, enjoy going to work everyday to pay for them. As for me, I take my chances on the open ocean. Experiance counts both in the stock market and on the water.....
My Casio cost nothing compared to your wife's Rolex. I invested the $$$ which did a lot better than your 25% loss. I retired at 54 to sail my Hunter 37C. So for all you cats with the Swans and Rolexs, enjoy going to work everyday to pay for them. As for me, I take my chances on the open ocean. Experiance counts both in the stock market and on the water.....
Lexus or Hyundai?
You did not offer the choice of a LOT of ALL of the above plus some mystique. NO WAY would I try to cross oceans in the Cats, Hunters, etc. Fine for smooth water, but REAL quality costs money.....
You did not offer the choice of a LOT of ALL of the above plus some mystique. NO WAY would I try to cross oceans in the Cats, Hunters, etc. Fine for smooth water, but REAL quality costs money.....
Very interesting discussion - Lots of good points
I don't think anyone can argue whether a Swan or an Oyster is a better built yacht than a production builder. Of course they are and many people described the reasons, from fit finish and woodworking to high tech materials and systems. But I think the BIG question is the Swan (~$800k) 4 times as good as a production boat (~$200k)??? And this is where I am not so sure , maybe twice as good etc, but four times as good ?!? Yes these systems and hand crafted work and highly skilled labor costs a lot, but there is a point where I think it just becomes a lot more profit as a percentage of costs. Does this all really matter for sailing for most of us, probably not, but if you got the $$, then I say "god bless 'em" ! But would this make a difference if I was bashing in the Southern Ocean or around Cape Horn ? Sure it would !! Could I do it in a higher end production boat? Sure, but I'd probably "feel" a little better in the Swan Oyster, etc. Would I pay an extra $500k-$600k ? If I had the money, Yes! But I would most likely get a good solid older blue water boat with very simple systems for $200k. I think the real increased costs of these boats are the complex "gee-whiz" sytems they put on these boats.
I don't think anyone can argue whether a Swan or an Oyster is a better built yacht than a production builder. Of course they are and many people described the reasons, from fit finish and woodworking to high tech materials and systems. But I think the BIG question is the Swan (~$800k) 4 times as good as a production boat (~$200k)??? And this is where I am not so sure , maybe twice as good etc, but four times as good ?!? Yes these systems and hand crafted work and highly skilled labor costs a lot, but there is a point where I think it just becomes a lot more profit as a percentage of costs. Does this all really matter for sailing for most of us, probably not, but if you got the $$, then I say "god bless 'em" ! But would this make a difference if I was bashing in the Southern Ocean or around Cape Horn ? Sure it would !! Could I do it in a higher end production boat? Sure, but I'd probably "feel" a little better in the Swan Oyster, etc. Would I pay an extra $500k-$600k ? If I had the money, Yes! But I would most likely get a good solid older blue water boat with very simple systems for $200k. I think the real increased costs of these boats are the complex "gee-whiz" sytems they put on these boats.
Gary B, Lots of Cat, Hunters and Benes cross
oceans. It happens all the time. Just like someone noted below in last years Caribean 1500 a Catalina 42 came in fourth place well ahead of other named "proper yachts" some of which had major systems failures. And this was no fair weather cruise, the fleet hit a multiple day storm and they had 40-50 knot winds for days. Doesn't mean they (production boats) would be better at crossing oceans then the Swan/Oyster, just that you could do it. "Most" of recent bigger boats from production builders are probably better built than most think (I will not say all are adequate though). The reality is that most of these boats can handle the ocean without "cracking in half" and ending up in Davey Jones locker. Its just that the Oyster would do it with "less effort" and with more ease and probably comfort and at the end of 10 years of hard cruising would look much better for the wear than a production boat.
oceans. It happens all the time. Just like someone noted below in last years Caribean 1500 a Catalina 42 came in fourth place well ahead of other named "proper yachts" some of which had major systems failures. And this was no fair weather cruise, the fleet hit a multiple day storm and they had 40-50 knot winds for days. Doesn't mean they (production boats) would be better at crossing oceans then the Swan/Oyster, just that you could do it. "Most" of recent bigger boats from production builders are probably better built than most think (I will not say all are adequate though). The reality is that most of these boats can handle the ocean without "cracking in half" and ending up in Davey Jones locker. Its just that the Oyster would do it with "less effort" and with more ease and probably comfort and at the end of 10 years of hard cruising would look much better for the wear than a production boat.
Would anyone pay for a Catalina
that had been beefed up??? Take a Catalina using the regular molds but add extra glass here and there, better ports and hatches oversize the rigging. Glass over the hull to deck joint or whatever required to make it rugged enough for blue water sailing. Say this adds $15,000 to the boat's price would anyone pay the difference??? What provoked this question is that in John Vigor's book about 20 boats that'll take you anywhere he listed a Catalina 27!!!!!!!! Beefed up. So it would seem most cost effective to beef up a boat as it was being built. Even if it added 50% to the cost of the boat it would still be relatively cheap. Maybe even a tradeoff forget some of the fluff for some extra strength at the same price.
that had been beefed up??? Take a Catalina using the regular molds but add extra glass here and there, better ports and hatches oversize the rigging. Glass over the hull to deck joint or whatever required to make it rugged enough for blue water sailing. Say this adds $15,000 to the boat's price would anyone pay the difference??? What provoked this question is that in John Vigor's book about 20 boats that'll take you anywhere he listed a Catalina 27!!!!!!!! Beefed up. So it would seem most cost effective to beef up a boat as it was being built. Even if it added 50% to the cost of the boat it would still be relatively cheap. Maybe even a tradeoff forget some of the fluff for some extra strength at the same price.
Price Sells
Some people won't buy if it doesn't cost more. Cadillac learned this years ago. It cost $1000. more than their best chevy, but they had to price it alot more in order to sell them Besides the joinery is much better as well as all the parts, ie. stove etc.
Some people won't buy if it doesn't cost more. Cadillac learned this years ago. It cost $1000. more than their best chevy, but they had to price it alot more in order to sell them Besides the joinery is much better as well as all the parts, ie. stove etc.
For what it's worth,
I look at all of the magazines and read all of the articles and marvel at all of the pretty pictures of these so called "high end" yachts. But for me, my new Hunter thats coming in this spring might as well be the Queen Mary. My wife has allowed me to fulfill a life long dream, and I consider myself fortunate to be able to own a Hunter. I don't think that I'll look at any other boat with envy for a long time. John
I look at all of the magazines and read all of the articles and marvel at all of the pretty pictures of these so called "high end" yachts. But for me, my new Hunter thats coming in this spring might as well be the Queen Mary. My wife has allowed me to fulfill a life long dream, and I consider myself fortunate to be able to own a Hunter. I don't think that I'll look at any other boat with envy for a long time. John
Ron, did I say I paid full price?
Well I didn't. I bought the Rolex used for about 1/3 its original price. My wife's had it for five years and it's now worth at least 100% more than what I paid for it. That's about a 20% rate of return per year, which is actually better than the stock market during that time. Plus, she got a really nice watch which she treasures dearly and as the commercial goes, "that's priceless". My point was and still is, quality items last longer and function better than cheaper ones. I've found this to be true for just about everything, and especially for cars, clothing, shoes, watches, and boats. BTW, congrats on your retirement. I'm 55 and can do so at any time. I like my work, so I'll stay a bit longer. When the perfect time comes along, I'll take my leave and my fat retirement pension, and sail off into the sunset. ;^) ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
Well I didn't. I bought the Rolex used for about 1/3 its original price. My wife's had it for five years and it's now worth at least 100% more than what I paid for it. That's about a 20% rate of return per year, which is actually better than the stock market during that time. Plus, she got a really nice watch which she treasures dearly and as the commercial goes, "that's priceless". My point was and still is, quality items last longer and function better than cheaper ones. I've found this to be true for just about everything, and especially for cars, clothing, shoes, watches, and boats. BTW, congrats on your retirement. I'm 55 and can do so at any time. I like my work, so I'll stay a bit longer. When the perfect time comes along, I'll take my leave and my fat retirement pension, and sail off into the sunset. ;^) ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
Ed Rolex
Sorry Ed... What you said was.. My wife's Rolex is a perfect example. It's over 15 years old, keeps perfect time, looks brand new, and is still worth about 75% of its original price. The way I read that is a 25% loss. Now don't try to change your story mid-stream... Happy Sailing to you too...... Ron
Sorry Ed... What you said was.. My wife's Rolex is a perfect example. It's over 15 years old, keeps perfect time, looks brand new, and is still worth about 75% of its original price. The way I read that is a 25% loss. Now don't try to change your story mid-stream...
Happy Sailing to you too...... RonIt's discussions like this...
that keep me coming to this site almost everyday. Lot's of great commentary from people with more experience than me, honest opinions and great ideas. As far as the custom vs. production boat controversy, it's just like anything else. First, what are you trying to do? Are you sailing around on a lake or do you want to cross oceans? Second, how much comfort do you expect while doing so? Will a flower pot on the stove work for you or do you need 4 heatpumps with A/C? Third, how much money can you spend and still have enough left over to actually go somewhere? It's all about compromise. Sure, I'd love to own a Swan or some other high end boat, just like I'd love to own a Ferrari and a mansion in Switzerland. Will that ever happen? Probably not, but I'm sure not gonna sit around and feel sorry for myself. Also, is sailing your only interest in life? While I certainly love sailing, I do have a number of other interests that take time and money. (my gun collection is worth 3x what my boat cost and my four wheeler probably 5x) So, it just comes down to priorities. Do I begrudge those who own million dollar boats? Heck no, they worked hard for their money (maybe) and now the get to reap the rewards. They also keep a lot of skilled craftsmen gainfully employed building these super-boats, so it's all good. Most of the people that I wire houses for have WAY more money than me and their houses are well beyond my means to own, but that's okay. Most of them work 60-70 hours a week, have no idea what their kids are up to, owe more on their credit cards than I paid for my house and haven't had much in the way of adventure in their lives, so it's really just a matter of choice of life style. I'll take my little MacGregor and sail all over the place, admire the Swans from afar and the world will keep turning.
that keep me coming to this site almost everyday. Lot's of great commentary from people with more experience than me, honest opinions and great ideas. As far as the custom vs. production boat controversy, it's just like anything else. First, what are you trying to do? Are you sailing around on a lake or do you want to cross oceans? Second, how much comfort do you expect while doing so? Will a flower pot on the stove work for you or do you need 4 heatpumps with A/C? Third, how much money can you spend and still have enough left over to actually go somewhere? It's all about compromise. Sure, I'd love to own a Swan or some other high end boat, just like I'd love to own a Ferrari and a mansion in Switzerland. Will that ever happen? Probably not, but I'm sure not gonna sit around and feel sorry for myself. Also, is sailing your only interest in life? While I certainly love sailing, I do have a number of other interests that take time and money. (my gun collection is worth 3x what my boat cost and my four wheeler probably 5x) So, it just comes down to priorities. Do I begrudge those who own million dollar boats? Heck no, they worked hard for their money (maybe) and now the get to reap the rewards. They also keep a lot of skilled craftsmen gainfully employed building these super-boats, so it's all good. Most of the people that I wire houses for have WAY more money than me and their houses are well beyond my means to own, but that's okay. Most of them work 60-70 hours a week, have no idea what their kids are up to, owe more on their credit cards than I paid for my house and haven't had much in the way of adventure in their lives, so it's really just a matter of choice of life style. I'll take my little MacGregor and sail all over the place, admire the Swans from afar and the world will keep turning.
Here are the numbers, you do the math.
Its original price back in 1989 was $6,000. I paid $2,200 in 1999. It was recently appraised at over $4,500. Now back to boating. We have a 1983 Hunter 34 which we bought for considerably less that what the insurance company says it's worth. We like sailing it more than the money we could make by sinking it. It's a perfect boat for the kind of sailing we do, and where we do it. If we were to revise our sailing plans to include passagemaking, then the Hunter we have would not be ideal, (IMHO). A Swan would be best, but unless we hit the big Lotto, we won't be getting one in my lifetime. Nonetheless, the Swan remains a dream/goal to try to achieve. Perhaps someday we'll get a better boat that will be more like a Swan than a Hunter. ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
Its original price back in 1989 was $6,000. I paid $2,200 in 1999. It was recently appraised at over $4,500. Now back to boating. We have a 1983 Hunter 34 which we bought for considerably less that what the insurance company says it's worth. We like sailing it more than the money we could make by sinking it. It's a perfect boat for the kind of sailing we do, and where we do it. If we were to revise our sailing plans to include passagemaking, then the Hunter we have would not be ideal, (IMHO). A Swan would be best, but unless we hit the big Lotto, we won't be getting one in my lifetime. Nonetheless, the Swan remains a dream/goal to try to achieve. Perhaps someday we'll get a better boat that will be more like a Swan than a Hunter. ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
How about something in between?
If you were interested in extended cruising(living aboard for a few years),both coastal and bluewater, what do you think about something in between like a Hylas or Amel? It seems all of the discussion revolves around the truly top end vessel and production boats. Has anyone sailed either of these lines for extended periods and can you provide some insight? How about others that might be comparable. I see some relatively young Amel's in the high $300,000 (1999 -53') range and some Hylas' mid three hundreds to mid sixes. Any thoughts? Thanks for your comments
If you were interested in extended cruising(living aboard for a few years),both coastal and bluewater, what do you think about something in between like a Hylas or Amel? It seems all of the discussion revolves around the truly top end vessel and production boats. Has anyone sailed either of these lines for extended periods and can you provide some insight? How about others that might be comparable. I see some relatively young Amel's in the high $300,000 (1999 -53') range and some Hylas' mid three hundreds to mid sixes. Any thoughts? Thanks for your comments
The Math......
You cheap-skate! You bought your wife a used watch? Just kidding... Sounds like you got a deal which is something I'm always looking for. Nice visiting with you... Ron
You cheap-skate! You bought your wife a used watch? Just kidding... Sounds like you got a deal which is something I'm always looking for. Nice visiting with you... Ron
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