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Oh yes there is a difference..
Oh yes there is a huge difference between boats in the Hunter/Catalina/Benneteau class and boats like Swan/Oyster/Hallberg Rassy. The differences come in details like the materials used in hull construction. The high end boats use vinylester and epoxy resins for the entire layup, nut just for a barrier coat. The fabrics use in the expensive boats are S-glass, kevlar and carbon fiber, not e-glass. The construction techniques are top notch and include SCRIMP and lots of very careful hand work. The level of detail on expensive boats is way, way beyond that on production boats. Next time you go to a boat show, take a look at the joinerwork on a Catalina and then wander over to the HR and have a look. You will find a hand built cabinet on the HR that is completely finished inside and out, while that on the Catalina will be machine made. Next time you are at a boat show, wait in line to see the new Hinckley. Take a look at the stainless steel on deck. You will notice that it is all custom made and that every piece has been polished to a mirror finish. Heck, I was over at the Hinckley yard last week and saw them bringing out a Suncor stainless "Buce type" anchor that they had just finished putting a mirror finish on. Take a look at the varnish work on a Hinckley. You will notice a mirror-like finish that is absolutely smooth. Compare that to the varnish work on a Hunter or even a Pacific Seacraft. The difference represents hundreds of hours of work by a very experienced varnish professional. Everywhere you look on top-of-the-line boats you will see quality. You also know that the places you can't see are tops in quality. I have sailed on several Hinckleys and I have to say they are rock solid. Last summer I double handed a 49 foot Hinckley in 25-30 knots and 7-10 foot seas for a day. During that entire day nothing on the boat creaked or groaned. Everything worked perfectly. The boat handled the conditions without straining and we had full sail up. We were very comfortable and even cooked two meals while under way. I did get a drop of spray on my knee though
So oh yes there are real quality differences. Are they worth the price difference? That is a question each person has to answer for him/herself. By the way, I sail a 31 year old production boat. It does the job for me, but I can definitely appreciate the quality differences between my boat and a Hinckley or Morris. TD
Oh yes there is a huge difference between boats in the Hunter/Catalina/Benneteau class and boats like Swan/Oyster/Hallberg Rassy. The differences come in details like the materials used in hull construction. The high end boats use vinylester and epoxy resins for the entire layup, nut just for a barrier coat. The fabrics use in the expensive boats are S-glass, kevlar and carbon fiber, not e-glass. The construction techniques are top notch and include SCRIMP and lots of very careful hand work. The level of detail on expensive boats is way, way beyond that on production boats. Next time you go to a boat show, take a look at the joinerwork on a Catalina and then wander over to the HR and have a look. You will find a hand built cabinet on the HR that is completely finished inside and out, while that on the Catalina will be machine made. Next time you are at a boat show, wait in line to see the new Hinckley. Take a look at the stainless steel on deck. You will notice that it is all custom made and that every piece has been polished to a mirror finish. Heck, I was over at the Hinckley yard last week and saw them bringing out a Suncor stainless "Buce type" anchor that they had just finished putting a mirror finish on. Take a look at the varnish work on a Hinckley. You will notice a mirror-like finish that is absolutely smooth. Compare that to the varnish work on a Hunter or even a Pacific Seacraft. The difference represents hundreds of hours of work by a very experienced varnish professional. Everywhere you look on top-of-the-line boats you will see quality. You also know that the places you can't see are tops in quality. I have sailed on several Hinckleys and I have to say they are rock solid. Last summer I double handed a 49 foot Hinckley in 25-30 knots and 7-10 foot seas for a day. During that entire day nothing on the boat creaked or groaned. Everything worked perfectly. The boat handled the conditions without straining and we had full sail up. We were very comfortable and even cooked two meals while under way. I did get a drop of spray on my knee though
So oh yes there are real quality differences. Are they worth the price difference? That is a question each person has to answer for him/herself. By the way, I sail a 31 year old production boat. It does the job for me, but I can definitely appreciate the quality differences between my boat and a Hinckley or Morris. TDYou payz you money and you takes you choice
Why all the fuss? If you own a Swan-Good,Enjoy it. If you own a Hunter, Same deal. I'm NEVER embarassed to be seen in my '85 Hunter 33. The Swan owner can wave as we pass or not. I'm enjoying myself as much as he/she is. Happy sailing in whatever you have.....
Why all the fuss? If you own a Swan-Good,Enjoy it. If you own a Hunter, Same deal. I'm NEVER embarassed to be seen in my '85 Hunter 33. The Swan owner can wave as we pass or not. I'm enjoying myself as much as he/she is. Happy sailing in whatever you have.....
What kind of yacht can you get for 3/4 million?
What kind of yacht can you get for only $700,000? Move up to a real yacht: check out Hodgdon Yachts at http://www.hodgdonyachts.com/. For myself, I am quite happy with my $8,000 Catalina 27. Maybe someday I'll move up to a bit bigger boat and take a multiyear voyage. Fun and adventure are the name of the game. Those with more money have more expensive fun. -Gary Goodman
What kind of yacht can you get for only $700,000? Move up to a real yacht: check out Hodgdon Yachts at http://www.hodgdonyachts.com/. For myself, I am quite happy with my $8,000 Catalina 27. Maybe someday I'll move up to a bit bigger boat and take a multiyear voyage. Fun and adventure are the name of the game. Those with more money have more expensive fun. -Gary Goodman
Create Value, instead of Buying It!
Why spend $200,000 plus for a boat that looks like every other charter i.e. rental boat? For much less than $50,000 you can get a Columbia 43, spend a few thousand "modernising" her and have a boat that has character, pedigree (Designed by Bill Tripp), and performance that will be envied. Sure, you get to spend a few weekends working on her but at least you will know her and appreciate her after that. Save your money!
Why spend $200,000 plus for a boat that looks like every other charter i.e. rental boat? For much less than $50,000 you can get a Columbia 43, spend a few thousand "modernising" her and have a boat that has character, pedigree (Designed by Bill Tripp), and performance that will be envied. Sure, you get to spend a few weekends working on her but at least you will know her and appreciate her after that. Save your money!
At 60 I find that I dream differently...
I love the little O'day 272 that I have sailed regularly since 1995. When I tour one of the 40-some or 50-some footers, I feel the same way that I do when I tour the Biltmore Estate. I am paying a fee to look briefly into one aspect of a life style that I have not been prepared by my life experience to understand. At 60 I cannot comprehend what $750K means... except that when I add up our annual income for the past 15 years I may come close to that number (before taxes!!) Now when I speak a number like, say, $20K, I can actually deal with that and match my dream with the economic reality of my circumstances. That's what a good old boat means to me. That is where my dream comes into focus. I can be happy with that... As happy as those with $750K to spend. Tom
I love the little O'day 272 that I have sailed regularly since 1995. When I tour one of the 40-some or 50-some footers, I feel the same way that I do when I tour the Biltmore Estate. I am paying a fee to look briefly into one aspect of a life style that I have not been prepared by my life experience to understand. At 60 I cannot comprehend what $750K means... except that when I add up our annual income for the past 15 years I may come close to that number (before taxes!!) Now when I speak a number like, say, $20K, I can actually deal with that and match my dream with the economic reality of my circumstances. That's what a good old boat means to me. That is where my dream comes into focus. I can be happy with that... As happy as those with $750K to spend. Tom
Stop dreaming -- take action
I always dreamed of blue water sailing and found a way to make it happen -- I crewed on a 59' Swan. For a couple bucks every resourceful sailor in this thread can do the same and experience for themselves the difference between these yachts and the production boats the average "Joe" (like me) can afford. Words cannot describe...... The bottom line -- Swans are designed and manufactured to safely cross oceans and handle all weather conditions along the way. These are boats that you can take your family around the world on. Catalinas, and the others are designed for fair weather coastal cruising -- at best short ocean passages. Match the tool for the job!
I always dreamed of blue water sailing and found a way to make it happen -- I crewed on a 59' Swan. For a couple bucks every resourceful sailor in this thread can do the same and experience for themselves the difference between these yachts and the production boats the average "Joe" (like me) can afford. Words cannot describe...... The bottom line -- Swans are designed and manufactured to safely cross oceans and handle all weather conditions along the way. These are boats that you can take your family around the world on. Catalinas, and the others are designed for fair weather coastal cruising -- at best short ocean passages. Match the tool for the job!
Tom,you got it ,But I think we'er Happyer @$20K
I too go to boat shows,but only to pick up ideas of things for me to make for my boat,have not seen what I think is any thing close to the $$$$$$$being ASK IN YEARS.
I too go to boat shows,but only to pick up ideas of things for me to make for my boat,have not seen what I think is any thing close to the $$$$$$$being ASK IN YEARS.
Attachments
Reality!!
you get what you pay for. everything in life can come with different price points....from house to cars to engagement rings to watches, hotels and restaurants. face it: if you want a high end yacht and can afford it buy an ocean going gem and leave the water borne mobile homes to the masses who will be probably more happy with their little joy even if it costs substantially less. just do not sail on one to Bermuda.
you get what you pay for. everything in life can come with different price points....from house to cars to engagement rings to watches, hotels and restaurants. face it: if you want a high end yacht and can afford it buy an ocean going gem and leave the water borne mobile homes to the masses who will be probably more happy with their little joy even if it costs substantially less. just do not sail on one to Bermuda.
rearing black horses & chrome ponies
Italian sports cars and Ford pony cars have far more in common than they have differences. Yet the price spread on a percentage basis is much greater than the $300 vs. $900 of those 42's. Is it spars and rigging? I think not. How about perceived value, exclusivity, and on and on. Ah, human nature.
Italian sports cars and Ford pony cars have far more in common than they have differences. Yet the price spread on a percentage basis is much greater than the $300 vs. $900 of those 42's. Is it spars and rigging? I think not. How about perceived value, exclusivity, and on and on. Ah, human nature.
Reality?
I wasn't planning on chiming in on this one, but just can't help myself. Is there a difference between the higher end manufacturers and the manufacturers of more affordable boats. The answer is simple..."Yes". The bottom line is that higher end boats are there to give those that can afford it what they want in an easy to purchase package. Truth be told, most of the boats that are being discussed can be modified to handle big water. The danger isn't the boat, it's the person at the helm. For me, I would probably buy an old custom for around 100K and then do a complete refit to bring it to top condition. For 250k, I would have a boat that would cost someone 500 to 700k. That's just me though, I tend to like breathing life into the discarded scrap of others. It's fun to dream, but in my opinion it doesn't matter what you sail, just that you sail. Here's to fair weather and good breezes.
I wasn't planning on chiming in on this one, but just can't help myself. Is there a difference between the higher end manufacturers and the manufacturers of more affordable boats. The answer is simple..."Yes". The bottom line is that higher end boats are there to give those that can afford it what they want in an easy to purchase package. Truth be told, most of the boats that are being discussed can be modified to handle big water. The danger isn't the boat, it's the person at the helm. For me, I would probably buy an old custom for around 100K and then do a complete refit to bring it to top condition. For 250k, I would have a boat that would cost someone 500 to 700k. That's just me though, I tend to like breathing life into the discarded scrap of others. It's fun to dream, but in my opinion it doesn't matter what you sail, just that you sail. Here's to fair weather and good breezes.
What matters is free
While I dream of a Hinckley or Swan, probably not in this lifetime. However, on my 85 Catalina 30 I enjoy the same wind, have the same water under my keel, and look at the same horizons as my neighbors on their far more expensive boats. But I don't think they enjoy these things any more than I do. The things that matter about sailing are fortunately free to all of us. And I bet I have more fun puttering and improving my boat, anyway. That said, if I win the lottery I'll buy a Hinckley.
While I dream of a Hinckley or Swan, probably not in this lifetime. However, on my 85 Catalina 30 I enjoy the same wind, have the same water under my keel, and look at the same horizons as my neighbors on their far more expensive boats. But I don't think they enjoy these things any more than I do. The things that matter about sailing are fortunately free to all of us. And I bet I have more fun puttering and improving my boat, anyway. That said, if I win the lottery I'll buy a Hinckley.
Tied to the bank!
It has been said that it is better to have a small boat and a suitcase full of money, than a 50 footer that is tied to the bank Whether you get what you pay for or not depends entirely on what you are paying for. My 1985 Catalina C36 performs well in a variety of conditions. 20 to 30 knot winds are a pretty normal afternoon in San Francisco Bay's well known "chute". Our "potato patch" is respected by Mariners around the world. What I paid for, was a boat that would make the California coast my playground. Niether the coast or the boat have been a disappointment!!
It has been said that it is better to have a small boat and a suitcase full of money, than a 50 footer that is tied to the bank
Whether you get what you pay for or not depends entirely on what you are paying for. My 1985 Catalina C36 performs well in a variety of conditions. 20 to 30 knot winds are a pretty normal afternoon in San Francisco Bay's well known "chute". Our "potato patch" is respected by Mariners around the world. What I paid for, was a boat that would make the California coast my playground. Niether the coast or the boat have been a disappointment!!
Great to see everyone so psyched up
about their equipment (or someone else's). That just never seems to get our own juices flowing, unless there is some underlying idea or invention to be tried out. I am not just talking about boats, but also about cars, skiing, backpacking or diving equipment. I would much rather discuss the next voyage; even if the destination is just a few creeks down the Bay (or a few mountain peaks away here in the Utah Rockies). Once Nelleke and I figure out where to go or what to try and accomplish we simply start getting our gear ready (and ourselves, if need be). Yet, we love "Rivendel II" for all the memories, whether sweet or bittersweet. Moreover, for practical as well as sentimental reasons we would always first consider to keep using her for our new plans, rather than to simply trade her in for a newer model or a different type of vessel. Nonetheless, if sailing around Cape Horn was our lifelong ambition we would probably let go of "Rivendel II" right away, unless -- of course-- we were trying to prove that "Hunters can go the distance" ;D. Not trying to put anyone or anything down; just curious if our decidedly utalitarian approach is the exception rather than the rule among the denizens of this board. Have fun! Flying Dutchman PS: If I really had a choice of dream vessels to make the next ocean voyage in I would probably try to crew on one of the last tepukes still existing in the nearby Reef Islands (see attached link) rather than on any of the Hinkleys or Oysters we regularly encounter here in the South pacific.
about their equipment (or someone else's). That just never seems to get our own juices flowing, unless there is some underlying idea or invention to be tried out. I am not just talking about boats, but also about cars, skiing, backpacking or diving equipment. I would much rather discuss the next voyage; even if the destination is just a few creeks down the Bay (or a few mountain peaks away here in the Utah Rockies). Once Nelleke and I figure out where to go or what to try and accomplish we simply start getting our gear ready (and ourselves, if need be). Yet, we love "Rivendel II" for all the memories, whether sweet or bittersweet. Moreover, for practical as well as sentimental reasons we would always first consider to keep using her for our new plans, rather than to simply trade her in for a newer model or a different type of vessel. Nonetheless, if sailing around Cape Horn was our lifelong ambition we would probably let go of "Rivendel II" right away, unless -- of course-- we were trying to prove that "Hunters can go the distance" ;D. Not trying to put anyone or anything down; just curious if our decidedly utalitarian approach is the exception rather than the rule among the denizens of this board. Have fun! Flying Dutchman PS: If I really had a choice of dream vessels to make the next ocean voyage in I would probably try to crew on one of the last tepukes still existing in the nearby Reef Islands (see attached link) rather than on any of the Hinkleys or Oysters we regularly encounter here in the South pacific.
It's all in how you play the game
I suppose price helps determine some of a boat's value to some people.Remember that the manufacturer whether production or custom supports a small navy of his own and they have to be paid.As for me , my boat isn't as big or expensive as some, but it fits in my budget and the more I look the more I apply what I call the "IPF" factor(It's Paid For!). It sure gives me a lot of satisfaction and levels the field. I think that the proper boat is the one that you take sailing- and that is priceless!
I suppose price helps determine some of a boat's value to some people.Remember that the manufacturer whether production or custom supports a small navy of his own and they have to be paid.As for me , my boat isn't as big or expensive as some, but it fits in my budget and the more I look the more I apply what I call the "IPF" factor(It's Paid For!). It sure gives me a lot of satisfaction and levels the field. I think that the proper boat is the one that you take sailing- and that is priceless!
getting what you pay for
One does not always get what one pays for...one can get far less! Thus the need for surveys... But in the final analysis, the question is what does one REALLY NEED? I need a reliable boat that is sea kindly and seaworthy. Since I prefer to spend most of my time above decks and don't host a lot of high-toned parties in port, a solid boat with a minimum of amenities is suitable.
One does not always get what one pays for...one can get far less! Thus the need for surveys... But in the final analysis, the question is what does one REALLY NEED? I need a reliable boat that is sea kindly and seaworthy. Since I prefer to spend most of my time above decks and don't host a lot of high-toned parties in port, a solid boat with a minimum of amenities is suitable.
I have compared
I am the owner of a C400 MKII and sail the Australian east coast (alot of open ocean!). I just finished helping a friend sail his 62 foot Swan from New Zealand to Australia...7 days of Blue Water. After that I say you simply buy the boat to suit the need. The Catalina is FANTASTIC for basic cruising, but open ocean requires the heavy rig, fuel capacity, additional hull strenght etc...I certainly felt safe in the Swam with average wind speeds around 35 knots for the whole trip. I don't, however , need that kind of boat for what I do. I agree with many of the comments hear as well...the finish may be better in the Swan, but NOT THAT much better...Catalina is just what the doctor ordered.
I am the owner of a C400 MKII and sail the Australian east coast (alot of open ocean!). I just finished helping a friend sail his 62 foot Swan from New Zealand to Australia...7 days of Blue Water. After that I say you simply buy the boat to suit the need. The Catalina is FANTASTIC for basic cruising, but open ocean requires the heavy rig, fuel capacity, additional hull strenght etc...I certainly felt safe in the Swam with average wind speeds around 35 knots for the whole trip. I don't, however , need that kind of boat for what I do. I agree with many of the comments hear as well...the finish may be better in the Swan, but NOT THAT much better...Catalina is just what the doctor ordered.
Quality stands the test of time
I spent a week on a friends S&S Swan 411 last September cruising Spain and Portugal, the boat is 29 years old yet has its original spars engine and deck gear I could not find fault with the boat she was a pleasure to sail and to live on how many hunter's will the same be said of in 30 years time.
I spent a week on a friends S&S Swan 411 last September cruising Spain and Portugal, the boat is 29 years old yet has its original spars engine and deck gear I could not find fault with the boat she was a pleasure to sail and to live on how many hunter's will the same be said of in 30 years time.
Depends on how you use it.
I believe the difference is in the basic construction and quality of components. The three more expensive boats mentioned have reputations for being heavily built and reliable in the open oceans. The Hunter, Catalina, and Beneteau boats are perfectly adequate for lakes and some coastal cruising. I own a Hunter 310 and have sailed it since 1997 on a large lake. It has met my expectations and has been reliable in this rather tame environment. I would, however, hesitate to use it in open ocean because the construction is rather light compared to a Swan or Oyster. On the other hand, I would not be willing to buy one of the more expensive boats for lake use because I would be spending a lot of extra money for overkill. One other consideration is amenities. I believe the lower cost production boats place a lot of attention on creature comforts for more casual and family cruising. For me (and more importantly for my wife) this is important in our sailing experience. I guess the bottom line is you buy the least expensive boat the meets your needs. If I were doing a lot of passage making, I would go for the strongest boat I could afford. For my needs, the Hunter (and other popular production boats) has proved more that adequate and should stand up to my use for years. A final thought: I believe you do pay a premium for certain names with better snob appeal.
I believe the difference is in the basic construction and quality of components. The three more expensive boats mentioned have reputations for being heavily built and reliable in the open oceans. The Hunter, Catalina, and Beneteau boats are perfectly adequate for lakes and some coastal cruising. I own a Hunter 310 and have sailed it since 1997 on a large lake. It has met my expectations and has been reliable in this rather tame environment. I would, however, hesitate to use it in open ocean because the construction is rather light compared to a Swan or Oyster. On the other hand, I would not be willing to buy one of the more expensive boats for lake use because I would be spending a lot of extra money for overkill. One other consideration is amenities. I believe the lower cost production boats place a lot of attention on creature comforts for more casual and family cruising. For me (and more importantly for my wife) this is important in our sailing experience. I guess the bottom line is you buy the least expensive boat the meets your needs. If I were doing a lot of passage making, I would go for the strongest boat I could afford. For my needs, the Hunter (and other popular production boats) has proved more that adequate and should stand up to my use for years. A final thought: I believe you do pay a premium for certain names with better snob appeal.
One never regrets buying quality.
I've seen it many times over. Of all the things I've bought, the items that have lasted longest and provided the most reliable service have been high quality purchases. My wife's Rolex is a perfect example. It's over 15 years old, keeps perfect time, looks brand new, and is still worth about 75% of its original price. I very seriously doubt there are any Casio owners who can say that. I suspect folks who can afford Swans, Oysters, or Hinckleys don't need to be reminded about how a quality boat will last longer and perform better than a production boat. Those of us with production boats can take solice in knowing we have as good a boat as we can afford, and there's nothing wrong with that. We can make our boats better, and we can sail to the same places Swans can go. Perhaps, we just can't sail there in the same level of comfort and safety as provided in a Swan. Lastly, we shouldn't assume that just because we may not be able to afford a Swan, that most of its higher price must be due to some sort of "snob factor". There is no doubt in my mind (after seeing Swans up close and personal) that they are among the best boats being built today. All I can hope for is that someday I'll be fortunate enough to be able to own one. :^) ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
I've seen it many times over. Of all the things I've bought, the items that have lasted longest and provided the most reliable service have been high quality purchases. My wife's Rolex is a perfect example. It's over 15 years old, keeps perfect time, looks brand new, and is still worth about 75% of its original price. I very seriously doubt there are any Casio owners who can say that. I suspect folks who can afford Swans, Oysters, or Hinckleys don't need to be reminded about how a quality boat will last longer and perform better than a production boat. Those of us with production boats can take solice in knowing we have as good a boat as we can afford, and there's nothing wrong with that. We can make our boats better, and we can sail to the same places Swans can go. Perhaps, we just can't sail there in the same level of comfort and safety as provided in a Swan. Lastly, we shouldn't assume that just because we may not be able to afford a Swan, that most of its higher price must be due to some sort of "snob factor". There is no doubt in my mind (after seeing Swans up close and personal) that they are among the best boats being built today. All I can hope for is that someday I'll be fortunate enough to be able to own one. :^) ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
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