25 foot trailer sailor: max capacity?

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Oct 26, 2008
6,086
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
StinkBug, it's pretty obvious to me that the variety of responses is a pretty good indication that nobody really knows how to answer your question! I think most people simply decide that safe capacity is the number of people that comfortably fit on our boats when sailing. But even that description can be very confusing. Take a look at photographs of the racing crew on a small keelboat (say less than 28'). There are often up to 6 or 8 crew members! All with various jobs that place them around the boat and on the rail for rail meat. I don't like to day-sail my 27' boat with 4 people sitting in the cockpit ... it just can't be done well. But if I was racing my boat on a windy day, with spinnaker sets and all, then a crew of 6 could be considered essential.

But I think that smaller sailboats in the 18 to 26 foot range that don't have fixed keels can be very difficult to judge. I think your original question had a lot of validity. It's obvious that nobody knows how to answer it because there isn't anything solid to base our decisions on! Personally, I think if you have your keel down and locked, you probably can't comfortably fit more people than would be safe (probably 8 at an upper limit). Water-ballasted boats are a whole nother issue in my mind ... I think the safe capacity of a water-ballasted boat is very deceptive.

Also deceptive are those large powerboats with the upper deck flybridges and command centers. Interestingly, the "rule of thumb" formula was originally intended for boats up to about 26' (except that boats under 20' require plates). So that formula seems to be for a very limited range. The safe boating manuals actually have said that "seating capacity" can be used to judge the capacity for boats larger than 26'. I think that this is a dangerous notion as well, because we know how boat manufacturers like to advertise and portray their boats as luxurious and spacious. I think people are easily duped into believing their boats have a safe capacity that is far greater than reality, based on the top-heavy design of many boats.

That's why I believe manufacturers should be forced to take responsibility for describing a capacity for the boats they make. Without capacity plates, how can authorities take any enforcement action when tragedies occur? As far as I know, there has been no action taken against the operator of the Silverton that capsized last year in LIS, killing several passengers. There were many in this forum who called for the head of the operator, yet resist any type of enforceable standard. It seems that many would simply prosecute based on a lack of common "seamanship" sense. We know that will never fly, so the whole episode just gets swept under the rug until the next episode which will outrage us for a few minutes.
 
Oct 2, 2006
1,517
Jboat J24 commack
All I know is from owning a J24 that 5 is a full house and a Cal 29 were 8 people on deck turns it into a powerboat as there is NO ROOM to sail anymore

The J24 is so easy to tilt VS the Cal which is very stable
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,086
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Wikipedia says that J24s are usually raced with a crew of 5, but with max weight no more than 882 pounds. An article I read in YachtRacing indicated 7 essential crew positions (for 30' boats). For 34' boats, an 8th position is normally added for spinnaker work. I think my point is that a well-choreographed racing yacht has room for a surprisingly greater number of crew than is comfortable for a day-sail when the "crew" simply relaxes in the cockpit.
 
Oct 2, 2006
1,517
Jboat J24 commack
On the 35' I am racing on tonight in which we do dip pole spinnaker jibes 7 is perfect if it is blowing 6 is fine below 15 knot and 8 people start getting in each others way no matter what
 
Oct 2, 2006
1,517
Jboat J24 commack
The owner helms the starts due to it being the most likely time to bump something and then somebody else helms while the owner calls tactics and will generally do something light like cabintop during a spinnaker Jibe


Right now nobody on the boat has less than 5 years onboard and some have 15 doing 20 something races a year together So its a pretty well oiled machine

We race with a wide age and fitness level and the person least able to move around will trim mainsail for example are last mainsail trimmer Uncle Joe raced every week until he passed away at 93 and only missed about 6 months of active sailing
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Wikipedia says that J24s are usually raced with a crew of 5, but with max weight no more than 882 pounds. An article I read in YachtRacing indicated 7 essential crew positions (for 30' boats). For 34' boats, an 8th position is normally added for spinnaker work. I think my point is that a well-choreographed racing yacht has room for a surprisingly greater number of crew than is comfortable for a day-sail when the "crew" simply relaxes in the cockpit.
As Tom notes, J-24s optimally sail with 5 on board.

We can buoy race our First 36.7 with symmetrical spinnaker with 6 (in a pinch) to 10 people on board. As numbers go down some tasks get doubled up or eliminated.

FYI a First 36.7 is rated by the CE for 12 persons. And that's a 36 foot boat with almost 4000 lbs of lead in the basement.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
You could just load it up at the dock until it capsizes and then plan on two less.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Seriously, I wouldn't attempt a live load that exceeded 30% of the displacement of the boat.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,086
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Jackdaw, so a CE rating is a European certification and it places a capacity limit on the boat? It seems to me that the American counterparts aren't necessarily bound by that. What I am getting at is that I think it is absurd that manufacturers (American, I suppose) can get away with producing boats without telling anybody what the capacity limit is.
 
Nov 19, 2011
1,489
MacGregor 26S Hampton, VA
Me too.

Recently I adopted Proverbs 13:20. You do t have to have religion to take advice from Proverbs. It says "Walk with the wise and become wise, for a companion of fools suffers harm".

Now this is saying a mouthful. Yes spending time with wise people will rub off. You may even learn something.

Spending time with fools may also rub off on you but that's not the whole point. Even if you do everything right, the fool's actions can impact you. Consider a drunk driver. You may be totally sober but if you get in the car with him behind the wheel, he can get you dead.

You see, the people on that Mac may all have been just fine, but they hung out with a fool who's actions cost them dearly.
 
Feb 8, 2009
118
Sabre 34 MK-1 Annapolis, MD
Seriously, I wouldn't attempt a live load that exceeded 30% of the displacement of the boat.
Yikes! My 700 pound Lightning (ok, she's old and like most older ladies, she's a bit more than when she was young -- call her 730 pounds), crewed by 3 heavyish folks, was running a crew load (not counting equipment load) of over 500 pounds. That's over 70% of displacement. The last time I had her out was a pleasure sail with 4 adults, and I was probably pretty close to 100% of displacement.

Harry
 

Piotr

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Dec 6, 2010
848
MacGregor 25 Rock Hall, MD
Sorry if anyone felt I was trying to get affirmation on something I had already decided, that's not the case at all. The question was, how many is a safe limit? I asked because I do, in fact, want to be safe. Seems like a lot of you put the limit right around where I do, and a few....well I think you might be taking safety to the extreme. I think anyone who is afraid to watch fireworks in the bay with 4 people on a boat this size might be a little paranoid, but to each his own. Even the rental companies that have big liability issues to worry about aren't afraid of that one.

I have plenty of adult life vests, and there wont be any kids on board, so there's no issue there. I'm very, very familiar with the waters I'll be in, and have done this same trip out on the 4th in a number of different boats. Last year I was on a Catalina of the same length with 6 people, and felt we could have easily fit a couple more, but the Cat 250 is a little roomier in the cockpit than my Mac I will admit. Yes the water does get a little choppy when everyone leaves, but I've really never really had any issues with it. Also unlike a lot of people, I'm generally not in any rush to get back to the dock. The traffic both on the water and on land is gonna suck no matter what. I find it's a lot easier to just hang out at anchor a little longer and let everyone else race each other into gridlock.

For those bringing up the trailer sailor issues, please keep in mind my Mac25 IS NOT water ballasted. It has a 700lb iron swing keel that always gets locked down as soon as the boat is in the water. I know some other boats have had bad things happen for various reasons, but not all trailerable boats are created equal. If we're gonna discuss the design of the boat, we should be looking at the design of THIS boat, and not another boat by the same builder, but greatly different design.

To be honest I'm not sure how many people will want to go out on the 4th. I know 6 will be solidly, no question safe. I think 8 would be too, but wanted to ask. Beyond that I dont care, cause it'd just be too crowded, and yeah probably unsafe too. I definitely dont wanna be on the edge of the envelope, I just wanna know where the envelope is so that I can make a decision and limit the invites accordingly.
The bottom line is, pay attention to the boat. If it's wallowing in small waves and feels sluggish, it's overloaded. If it handles "as always," it's fine. You can always reposition people as needed.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Yikes! My 700 pound Lightning (ok, she's old and like most older ladies, she's a bit more than when she was young -- call her 730 pounds), crewed by 3 heavyish folks, was running a crew load (not counting equipment load) of over 500 pounds. That's over 70% of displacement. The last time I had her out was a pleasure sail with 4 adults, and I was probably pretty close to 100% of displacement.

Harry
My 56 pound canoe comes in that way too. But not my 4.5 ton Islander. I bet that your crew could turtle the Lightning by standing up and holding the shrouds and leaning over the side.
 
Dec 29, 2008
805
Treworgy 65' LOA Custom Steel Pilothouse Staysail Ketch St. Croix, Virgin Islands
One time me and the admiral were essentially the only boat on our 23000 acre lake in a cloudless starry sky, full moon, water like a mirror on our Venture 224 (essentially a Mac25) watching the fire works from 4 small towns that surround the lake North South East and West.

Bliss
Now, THAT sounds like my idea of a good time. Bliss is probably an apt description.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Jackdaw, so a CE rating is a European certification and it places a capacity limit on the boat? It seems to me that the American counterparts aren't necessarily bound by that. What I am getting at is that I think it is absurd that manufacturers (American, I suppose) can get away with producing boats without telling anybody what the capacity limit is.
Scott,

Yes, thay rate the number of persons by Sailing type (A=Ocean, B=Coastal, C=Bays, D=Protected Lakes)

Here is the plates from some boats. You can see on the 361 at bottom, its rated for 12 persons near shore but only for 8 persons offshore.



The plate for a smaller Bene, a First 210. No offshore shore rating. Coastal 4, Lakes 6 persons.



In many European countries this rating can effect your insurance (all else being equal offshore boats cost more to insure) and where you can sail it under coverage.
 
Dec 26, 2012
359
MacGregor 25 San Diego
Now that I think of it I think I have seen one of those on the Jeanneau 45DS that my club has. I'll check on Saturday when I take it out again. I wish that was something they put on all boats, it just makes sense.
 
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