25 foot trailer sailor: max capacity?

[valhallasailingtv]

and if your motoring...which i can see you must be...stay centered.
don't worry bout sailing lessons and/or this group to save your life.
experience and using your head is best.
take your boat to the end of the earth and back...then ask this question...
tune your standing rigging.
you'll be fine..
but i cant speak for your passenger's you are gong to put at risk...
wow!!
like i said this post is just a MESS....waiting to happen..
Stephen
s/v VALHALLA

if Heavy Seas pickup close your companion way hatch and tell everyone to go down below and stay as low as possible and stay on the 'high side' of the vessel.
Stephen
s/v VALHALLA

 

[Dunlookin]

Let Me Get This Straight....

The guy wants to know how many people he can safely take out to see fireworks. A few sailors replied with sound advice. One poster provided a mathematical formula we could all use. The VAST MAJORITY of sailors provided detailed reasons why he shoiuld not go out. Why taking passengers on his boat is ill advised. Why his boat is unsuitable....and a number of other posts that had absolutely nothing to do with his original questions.

He did not state a situation and ask,"What do you think?" Reading through the replies one would think everyone is locked inside a bomb shelter waiting for destruction from any number of the, "THINGS THAT COULD HAPPEN."

We are the few people left who do not listen to the daily drumbeat of those who would eliminate every risk in favor of a false safety. How can those of us who ride on the wind become slaves to the voices of the people with no faith in that which cannot be seen?

At each jibe we calculate what our boats will do, and what the wind allows. We take the chance that we can harness the wind just as Erickson, Columbus, Jones, and Nelson did before us. We are magicians in an age or non-beleivers.

God does not grant us more days simply because we lived every moment as safely as possible. We will not have one more breath if we never take another chance.

Dreams are not for the faint-hearted. By definition, they are for the dreamers. We all should think about what we want to do. Consider how best to do it. Evaluate the risks, and benefits. Proceed as intelligently as possible.

Viewing fireworks from the beauty of the water is a not-to-be-beleived experience. Safely locked in a house watching it on TV....is, at most, a DVR moment.

One man with a boat wants to go out and share the experience, while others stay teathered to shore.

"A sailboat is safe in it's slip...tied to shore....
but, that is not what they were built for."

IMHO

 

[LuzSD]

This thread has become comical.

Go enjoy a great night in the water with your friends ... You know what is safe and what you're not comfortable with AND you know the waters. Nuff said, trust your instincts, see you out there!

 

[philwsailz]

Like Quixote tilting at windmills......

Dunlookin, I like your prose, but I think you are off-point, at least a little... I agree that as owners we are free to take risks for ourselves, but are they risks per se? We do not calculate what will happen on a jibe, we KNOW what will happen. We have experience on our boats, and based on time shared, some familiarity with what they will and will not do. We are not magicians in the age of non-believers, but rather a fascinating curiosity to those who scratch their heads figuring out how we sail upwind.... We know it is not magic but science. We are free to do whatever we choose, AS LONG as we don't make foolish decisions that run the risk of impacting other's lives without their knowledge of consequences.

To my mind, it comes down to responsibility. The owner/operator's responsibility to deliver a safe experience for a group of folks who best might be considered curious, yet also IGNORANT about the vessle's capabilities, weaknesses, tendencies, good habits, bad habits etc. It is not that they are stupid, just that they do not know.

The guests coming aboard for the evening have to be assumed to be non-sailors, or for that matter non-boaters, unless there is solid evidence to the contrary. They will do things that will make you cringe. They will do things that jeapordize the safety of all involved. They do so, again, completely ignorant of their actions, yet it is the skipper's responsibility to maintain a safe environment for all of his guests. To do less is foolish.

It is folly and foolish to go blindly and load the boat, hence the original question. Doc Holiday provides a reasonable formula, yet that is a generalized formula designed to get someone close based on probable buoyancy. You have to then apply common sense and ask yourself if the math gives you a number you are comfortable with. I would at least like to point out that the "stock" number for the average individual weight is archaic in my opinion. I don't know any group of grownups where the average weight of the group is 150 lbs per person; we are all heavier than that these days.

StinkBug's post as #34 of this thread is indicative of his awareness of the situation...

It sounds like StinkBug has settled on a number between 6 and 8. From my personal experience, I would recommend 6 as the max including me, but as LuzSD has shared, it is StinkBug's boat, and StinikBug's comfort level. I personally think 6 would be a crowd..

I agree with you that God does not grant us more days because we lived as safely as possible, but we have to apply that to ourselves and our personal decisions only. We CANNOT blindly impose our risk aversion or risk acceptance upon others who are ignorantly unaware of the risks based on our desire to ride the wind. We are not slaves to the voices of people with no faith, we are slaves to responsibility, doing the right thing in making a good prudent decision regarding the potential to permanently affect the lives of others.

You say Dreams are not for the faint-hearted, but it is probable that someone you know has dreams of just safely getting to their own bed each night....

 

[LuzSD]

Great post Phil, last line precious.... and I vote for 4 max. of 6

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Capacity plates are now required on boats that are less than 20 feet in length. I've not heard any rational explanation why capacity plates aren't required on any boat used for recreational purposes, regardless of length. We have all come to learn that the "rule of thumb" formula which is (was) taught by the Coast Guard Auxiliary in "Safe Boating Courses" is useless.

I think any passenger that steps on a boat should have the ability to read a plate and make their own informed decision. It isn't rational to rely upon the "experience" of the "captain" of a recreational boat when we all know that the only requirement for operating a boat is the ability to write a check in order to own one, and even that isn't really a given.

I've never even heard how the owner of a boat even comes by the knowledge of what would be the safe capacity for their boat. For some reason, it remains a mystery and boat manufacturers have successfully avoided all responsibility for describing a capacity for the very boats they make. I've heard the argument that testing boat models would be too expensive and cost prohibitive to purchasers. So we accept that argument from car manufacturers when it comes to safety?!?! I think not ...

StinkBug makes a great point that his iron-ballasted swing-keel boat can't be compared to the same manufacturer's water ballasted boat of virtually the same size (which does have a published capacity, BTW, for both un-ballasted and ballasted conditions). The specific characteristics of any boat provide even more reason for requiring capacity plates. That boat that sank in LIS, killing several people, had ample room to accommodate all the passengers, even though everybody acknowledges that it was grossly over-loaded (except that it wasn't even over-loaded if the "rule of thumb" formula was applied).

Think if a passenger on that boat happened to be curious about the capacity and was able to read (before accepting a ride on the boat) a plate that said that safe capacity was, say, 12 (who really knows what the capacity is (was) - it has never been revealed). If it was brought to everybody's attention, all those lives may have been saved.

 

[Catketch]

Also unlike a lot of people, I'm generally not in any rush to get back to the dock. The traffic both on the water and on land is gonna suck no matter what. I find it's a lot easier to just hang out at anchor a little longer and let everyone else race each other into gridlock.

If you haven't given up on this thread yet, StinkBug (and who could blame you if you have), I think you have the right idea about how to enjoy the 4th. There are few things as magical as watching fireworks over the water from offshore. When I go out, I always drop anchor several hours before sunset and cook dinner on the grill while enjoying the general energy of the crowd as it arrives around me. After the show, I hang around at anchor until I am one of the last boats left and then motor back in peaceful solitude.

One year, I made the mistake of inviting a non-boating business partner to join us. Despite my clear statements at the time of the invitation that we would be staying out at least an hour after the fireworks had ended, this jackass started loudly petitioning to head back as soon as the show was over. First he whined that it was getting late, then he complained that it was getting cold, and finally he whined even more pitifully that he needed to get up early the following morning. Finally, I couldn't take any more of it and I pulled anchor and headed back with the rest of the crowd just to shut him up (and had a near collision with a pontoon boat full of drunks on the way in).

The moral of the story: Invite as many as you feel you can safely and comfortably transport, but choose your guests very carefully.

Have a happy and safe 4th!
Dan

 

[anchorclanker]

I took my powerboat out for the 4th once on Lake Minnetonka to see the fireworks in Wayzata. I got there early, but as darkness fell more and more boats crowded around me. Half seemed to have a good snoot full, and once it was over it was the wildest thing I ever saw. Seemed like I was stuck in a mass of 5000 boats all trying to go the same direction.

I just backed off and let them all go ahead, wasnt worth fighting it. As we trolled along, we found several boats run aground, guys with chewed up props hitting shallows, and most of them too drunk to accept any meaningful help. Then at the boat ramp, total chaos. Always wanted to do it again, just not there. We went out on the lake here last 4th, and it was as different as night and day. Cant wait to do it again.

I question having people in the cabin with the hatch closed. If the boat turtled, and they are wearing life jackets, they may not be able to get out? I alowed my daughter and her friend to stay in the cabin, but with the hatch open, and me and momma in the cockpit. That was plenty of people for my 222, and I wouldn't want any more than that. I cant speak for a 25 Mac, but 6 sounds like more than enough to trip over each other. Less is more fun, I think.

And plus 1 on staying achored until all the crazies are gone.

 

[Tom]

Well heck Bug, if yer going to get all upset with what the people have said why not go for 18-20 'friends'. Sonds like you have it all figured out,
Ya know iron ballast and all.

Tom
s/v GAIA

 

[SailingHarry]

Man, you've had a lot of answers saying "don't go out -- it's crazy" without beginning to answer your question. And then, when you try to refocus the question, even more insults. Wow. I live in Annapolis, and while I've never been able to get my ducks in a row to go watch the fireworks, I think it would be fun. It can be safe, if -- as you have asked -- you approach it reasonably.

I can't specifically answer your question. But I can provide a bit of a data point. I race a Lightning, a 19' open boat with a 140 pound (or so, I forget) centerboard, with a beam of about 6'. That makes her considerably smaller than your Mac. Class rules REQUIRE a minimum of 3 people to race, so there is one data point. I've sailed it on the open Bay on several occasions with four adults aboard, and never found her in the least bit uncomfortable, unstable, or otherwise overloaded -- but admittedly a touch crowded.

I can't see why four wouldn't fit nicely in your boat that is 4 feet longer than mine. I also suspect that 6 would be quite safe too, but getting crowded. I wouldn't go 8, only because I can't see how you would be comfortable.

Maine's comment about everyone rushing to one side is worthy of consideration -- although, as you said, logistically improbable. My Lightning can take 3 heavy adults on one side with no problem, but 4 would probably cause problems.

If a drunk is going to run you over, it doesn't matter if you all have life jackets, are all expert sailors, and you only have 2 aboard.

That's my input.

 

[Catketch]

If a drunk is going to run you over, it doesn't matter if you all have life jackets, are all expert sailors, and you only have 2 aboard.

It does kinda matter if you have life jackets or not. Just sayin'.

 

[shemandr]

.One year, I made the mistake of inviting a non-boating business partner to join us. Dan

You called it. Mistake! Don't let civilians i.e. non-boaters into your world-especially business associates. "Business in the office, me time on the boat". Repeat as necessary.
BTW, my favorite time of the week is when I'm anchored on Sunday afternoon and the boats on anchor slowly dwindle as folks need to return to the work-a-day world, and I can just stay - all night if I want to. It's so nice.

 

[SailingHarry]

It does kinda matter if you have life jackets or not. Just sayin'.

OK, that may not have been completely clear. You obviously need (and I suspect OP knows that) one for each crew member. Also, if a drunk runs you over and you are WEARING them, it probably helps a lot. But if they are below, where most of us keep them, they don't help much.

My real point was that most of the issues raised are issues 99% of the time you are out there, regardless of preparation, skill level, crew ability, number on the boat, etc. Just a bit worse on busy days. My girlfriend won't let us go out Memorial Day or Labor Day for those reasons -- and we've missed some mighty fine sails because of it.

 

[StinkBug]

I'm glad to see that at least some of you are able to articulate some good responses to this discussion. It was getting pretty scattered, and I think a couple people were getting a little too heated, I however was not among them. I thought my last post would have made it clear that I haven't taken offense or gotten upset about anything anybody has said. I appreciate a good discussion, especially one that goes somewhere other than name calling.

I also wholeheartedly agree with Scott T-bird. I find it really hard to believe that data plates aren't required on boats this size or bigger. I know a lot of power boats that have a lot more seats on them than I'd be willing to fill, yet that's how some people might gauge the capacity of their boat. I spent some time reading through that article someone posted about the power boat that got hit by the barge in canada. Big ass twin engine diesel 3 deck, and it was the guys first boat EVER. The law doesn't require any training, and we aren't given any kind of useful information on proper loading. I cant imagine making a boat that size my first boat, but there's nothing stopping anybody from doing it.

It happens that I've been sailing all kinds of boats since I was 5 years old, and have a pretty solid understanding of them and the dynamics at play, but many people dont. I also know that different boats handle differently even if they are quite similar, which is why I originally posted this in the MacGregor forum. I've sailed a ton of boats, both bigger and smaller than this one. My club has rentals ranging from 16' to 54', this weekend I'll be on a 45'. They set limits on how many people can go on each, and in the past that has always been my guide. If they feel comfortable putting any Joe Public and X number of his friends on this boat then it's probably safe. They dont however have a MacGregor 25, so I dont necessarily wanna use the number they deem acceptable for a Catalina 250 or a Merit 25 (which they do have). As a side note their limits are 6 or more on everything from a Capri 22 on up. Even the 16's have a limit of 4.

It would be a lot easier, and safer if there were a data plate on the boat stating the capacity. This thread would have never been written, and I'm betting a good number of overloading accidents would have been avoided in the past.

 

[StinkBug]

I can't specifically answer your question. But I can provide a bit of a data point. I race a Lightning, a 19' open boat with a 140 pound (or so, I forget) centerboard, with a beam of about 6'. That makes her considerably smaller than your Mac. Class rules REQUIRE a minimum of 3 people to race, so there is one data point.

I used to crew on racing J/24s and though I dont know the letter of the rules we always raced with either 4 or 5 aboard. That's probably a closer comparison to the Mac as they are similar in size. The Mac actually carries quite a bit more keel weight though.

 

[THECUSCUS]

The Mac actually carries quite a bit more keel weight though

Think you have it reversed, Bug. Mac25 is 625lbs, J24 is 950. Personally, I think 3 is the most I want on my Mac, when sailing, but just motoring around I'd go with 6 max.

 

[topcat0399]

Wow. What a thread.

One time me and the admiral were essentially the only boat on our 23000 acre lake in a cloudless starry sky, full moon, water like a mirror on our Venture 224 (essentially a Mac25) watching the fire works from 4 small towns that surround the lake North South East and West.

Bliss

 

[StinkBug]

This is where I got the keel weight for a J/24. Maybe I'm reading the chart wrong, but I figured the J24class web site would probably be a reliable source.

http://www.j24class.org/usa/pdfs/measurement_form.pdf

 

[THECUSCUS]

Bug, It looks like all the measurements are metric on that form. 1kg equals 2.204 lbs.

 

[MrBill_FLL]

I've done the july 4 fireworks / boating for years and years. -but mostly on powerboats.

IMHO, sitting at anchor waiting the crowd out was way worse than moving out.

its pretty easy to get seasick sitting still and getting waked.

if it was a larger displacement sailboat or yacht that is an option. but in my experience you're better off moving slowly in.

and I remove the boom or raise it way up out of the way.

on the plus side, you can see all the displays on the water. off miami you could see 4-5 different displays... if the weather is good its very cool..


but remember it rookie night for many, and those are usually the ones all liquored up.