I've never heard of the Sandpiper until now. Looked at the owners site and it look like a neat boat. How high does the trunk go in the cabin? The only downside to vertical lifting keels is that they take up lots of room in the boat.
Thoughts about swing keel boats.
- Thread starter Ray Bowles
- Start date
If you are talking about a "canting" keel....... they are quite common on large high performance ocean racers (maxi's, for instance).... and starting to show up on the smaller Open 40's used in the Volvo and and even a few sport recreation style skiffs. Pricey!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canting_keel
http://www.gizmag.com/go/3164/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgsMX01Rxco
Since no one mentioned the o'day's, I thought I would. The o'day 25/26 has a swing centerboard. It is light and lifts with a line down through the cockpit. No winch needed. It works very well and so far no problems at all on an old boat that had been neglected.
The o'day 25s are great boats. But you may just be lucky; I know of at least three boats that have broken then.
http://www.drmarine.com/proddetail.asp?prod=DR80-01
I own a Mac 25 from the 1980's and a Balboa 26 from the 1970's and they both stay in the water for about 5 to 6 months of the year. I have had NO problems or complaint from either boat and would recommend people to get trailer sailors any time. Like anything it all depends on how you maintain it. I have seen just as many broken down fixed keel boats that have been left on harden stands to degrade and decompose. If you use your boat and do normal maintenance you will be fine. I don't know if I would ever been able to afford to get into sailing if I would not have started with an old trailer boat for under 3k. Just have someone who knows something about trailer sailors and sailboats in general come with you before you purchase much the same way you would if you had never owned a motorcycle and were thinking of purchasing a used one take someone who has experience.
Our family purchased a 1980 Cat 25 swing keel one year ago. It was a well equipped boat that looked like it had seen little use. One of my sons looked at in Lake Union, Wa and called me in Oregon. He said it needed some fg repairs on the port fwd settee. The theory was buy this, clean it up some, buy a trailer and for all the advantages a swing keel has for trailering, and beaching (not to rest on the raised keel however) it sounded like a good idea. Then I find out that new trailers cost between 4-6K so that was not an option. And I haven't been able to find a used one so it is berthed in saltwater...Bremerton, Washington.
Well we have polished it up quite a bit but then reading the Cat 25 forum on another website that fg repair was probably the result of a cable failure. Having had four previous sailboats, all fixed keel, the first time I heard the classic Catalina keel klunk I was completely unnerved. At any rate it is now on the hard. The keel cable, lift attachment, and the hose and hose clamps through which the cable is routed all look new. There is a distinct gap (1/8" per side) between the keel and keel hangars. The hangars will be replaced with the Catalina Direct hangar upgrade, new fasteners, pivot pin, and shims to reduce the play at the top of the trunk. The keel itself and hull all look undamaged and clean.
It seems that if the keel (all 1500 lbs of cast iron) remains in the full down position the likelihood of catastrophic damage is greatly reduced in the event of a cable failure.
On our H466 we have on occasion hit submerged debris in Puget Sound, guaranteed to get one's attention in a nanosecond, but fortunately sustained no damage to the hull or running gear. I don't know what would happen if the swing keel hit something like that and moved up with the force of impact if on the downstroke the cable would part. The same thing could happen in shallow water with an uneven bottom. Anyone know of any situations where damage occurred as a result of striking a submerged object or grounding over an uneven bottom?
At any rate, it is a fun boat to sail, we enjoy the restoration of it and I find it a good looking boat. Years ago, when we were stationed in Rhode Island our family became friends with Dan Spurr, then with "Practical Sailor". I asked him if there were any boats to stay away from of be wary of. His very thoughtful response has stuck with me for nearly 20 years. He said there were really no bad boats only boats put to bad purpose. I took that to mean do not exceed a boat's capabilities. So the Cat 25, will be used in the Sound on nice days, overnights or an occasional long weekend.
Well we have polished it up quite a bit but then reading the Cat 25 forum on another website that fg repair was probably the result of a cable failure. Having had four previous sailboats, all fixed keel, the first time I heard the classic Catalina keel klunk I was completely unnerved. At any rate it is now on the hard. The keel cable, lift attachment, and the hose and hose clamps through which the cable is routed all look new. There is a distinct gap (1/8" per side) between the keel and keel hangars. The hangars will be replaced with the Catalina Direct hangar upgrade, new fasteners, pivot pin, and shims to reduce the play at the top of the trunk. The keel itself and hull all look undamaged and clean.
It seems that if the keel (all 1500 lbs of cast iron) remains in the full down position the likelihood of catastrophic damage is greatly reduced in the event of a cable failure.
On our H466 we have on occasion hit submerged debris in Puget Sound, guaranteed to get one's attention in a nanosecond, but fortunately sustained no damage to the hull or running gear. I don't know what would happen if the swing keel hit something like that and moved up with the force of impact if on the downstroke the cable would part. The same thing could happen in shallow water with an uneven bottom. Anyone know of any situations where damage occurred as a result of striking a submerged object or grounding over an uneven bottom?
At any rate, it is a fun boat to sail, we enjoy the restoration of it and I find it a good looking boat. Years ago, when we were stationed in Rhode Island our family became friends with Dan Spurr, then with "Practical Sailor". I asked him if there were any boats to stay away from of be wary of. His very thoughtful response has stuck with me for nearly 20 years. He said there were really no bad boats only boats put to bad purpose. I took that to mean do not exceed a boat's capabilities. So the Cat 25, will be used in the Sound on nice days, overnights or an occasional long weekend.
Wow...I have looked up some informative page on how to go about removing the keel from the boat (http://sailincat.com/boating/C25_proj/C25_sk_install.htm). I must agree that having a single steel line to control the keel leaves a lot to be desired in terms of safety. All the inertia and energy of keel coming down after being bumped up...hopefully there are some well engineered reinforcements on both the boat and keel. I have also noticed how little of the keel actually remains in the keel trunk when lowered. There is very little to support it's sideways movement, no wonder there is noise...
I prefer ballast in the hull and lighter keel. Or heavy dagger-keel as shown below on a 25 footer:
Dagger-keel (900lbs)
In its position - boat under construction
Same boat with completed lift mechanism (don't have photo with the keel up, the centre plank on top of the table is half-way to the ceiling in the retracted position)
Different boat with the dagger keel up, same design:
Same boat with light swing keel and different configuration:
I prefer ballast in the hull and lighter keel. Or heavy dagger-keel as shown below on a 25 footer:
Dagger-keel (900lbs)
In its position - boat under construction
Same boat with completed lift mechanism (don't have photo with the keel up, the centre plank on top of the table is half-way to the ceiling in the retracted position)
Different boat with the dagger keel up, same design:
Same boat with light swing keel and different configuration:
On boats like this, the top of the trunk is designed to be above the waterline at any angle of heel. Some water may splash, but simple gasketing solves that.
That's an interesting, if slightly politically correct response. Understandable from someone known in the industry. I think we all develop a feel for what design features make sense to each of us, based on the types sailing we do, budget, and experience. We also learn the things that we will avoid like the plague.
Jackdaw beat me to reply, but on this answer I agree with him in 100% and my answer would be the same.
This is a really interesting thread. The advent of highly engineered lifting keels has transformed boats in the 20-30 foot range. Long gone are the days of thunking flat plates lifted by trailer winches. The new boats have high performance foils that stay in a solid position when down. And they are not just for small boats. The super hi-performance Pogo 12.50 is a 40 footer capable of 17 knots. Her 9 foot draft comes up to 3 feet when her keel is lifted. Its amazing to see this boat nudged into within 10 feet of the beach in this video.
http://vimeo.com/30756340
http://vimeo.com/30756340
my dad had a catalina 22 and the swing keel worked great..used it for years ..until my dad told me...dont put the keel down...ithink the cable started getting sticky...
IN the end, it is up to the buyer what he wants to do and the money that he has available to spend. I have watched the evolution of keels but in the end, most folks want an easy boat to sail that is affordable and if trailerable, one that is easy to be able to get onto the boat. When you talk about trailering large boats with alot of wieght, overwidth, overheight and so on, then you are going into another realm that most small boat sailors cannot afford not to mention the additional complexity of transport and the associated costs.
Well, I guess my Oday 222 is stinker then, with that pesky rope haul swing keel. 
I found pictures of my boat on this website (which is why I joined BTW) from the long ago previous owners. They were previous to the previous owner, previous to the owner I purchased iit from. They bought her in 2002, and that winter did a total bottom overhaul. She got new bottom paint, and they also dropped out the centerboard and rebuilt it, with new shackle and uphaul rope.
Their pics show some wear in the hinge pin, but nothing alarming. It certainly was not ready to head for Davy Jones Locker. But they resized the hole and put in a new pin, redid the wedges, reglassed the fin and painted it, and fitted it all back together like new.
Looking around the web you dont find a great deal of stories or links to people fixing these things. You do find some of the ropes snapping, and complaints of clunking, but its nothing epidemic.
My guess, and its only a guess, is that their work on the keel, in 2002, was the first overhaul of the keel since the boat was new in 1984. 18 years. I bought the boat last spring, with the same Missouri 2007 registration sticker those PO's put on it in 2003. The guy I bought it from stated the boat had not been so much as boarded in three years, and hadnt been sailed in probably 5 years.
After the boat was overhauled in 03, they sold it that winter to a couple who lives on the lake. If the boat ever came out of the water again, I cant say, but the guy I bought it from said he bought it without a trailer, and that it had sat at the Marina ever since. That he sailed it over from the sailboat club marina where it had been when the overhaul was done...in 03.
In any case, I know for a fact the boats been in the water for at least 8 years continuously. Thats clearly far too long without some bottom maintenance, but also shows they arent going to just self destruct overnight. I think its a neat and quite simple system. If you yank it out every third year and at least put on a new uphaul, and rebuild the hinge every 10 years........
I found pictures of my boat on this website (which is why I joined BTW) from the long ago previous owners. They were previous to the previous owner, previous to the owner I purchased iit from. They bought her in 2002, and that winter did a total bottom overhaul. She got new bottom paint, and they also dropped out the centerboard and rebuilt it, with new shackle and uphaul rope.
Their pics show some wear in the hinge pin, but nothing alarming. It certainly was not ready to head for Davy Jones Locker. But they resized the hole and put in a new pin, redid the wedges, reglassed the fin and painted it, and fitted it all back together like new.
Looking around the web you dont find a great deal of stories or links to people fixing these things. You do find some of the ropes snapping, and complaints of clunking, but its nothing epidemic.
My guess, and its only a guess, is that their work on the keel, in 2002, was the first overhaul of the keel since the boat was new in 1984. 18 years. I bought the boat last spring, with the same Missouri 2007 registration sticker those PO's put on it in 2003. The guy I bought it from stated the boat had not been so much as boarded in three years, and hadnt been sailed in probably 5 years.
After the boat was overhauled in 03, they sold it that winter to a couple who lives on the lake. If the boat ever came out of the water again, I cant say, but the guy I bought it from said he bought it without a trailer, and that it had sat at the Marina ever since. That he sailed it over from the sailboat club marina where it had been when the overhaul was done...in 03.
In any case, I know for a fact the boats been in the water for at least 8 years continuously. Thats clearly far too long without some bottom maintenance, but also shows they arent going to just self destruct overnight. I think its a neat and quite simple system. If you yank it out every third year and at least put on a new uphaul, and rebuild the hinge every 10 years........
To a large degree. The reverse transom was popular on 70s-80s racing boats, because a straight transom boat could easily be modified (either in design or after construction) to the new reverse transom, and that increased the waterline and max potential speed of the boat. But it made the boat very hard to get on to, even with a swim ladder. Then some smart designer thought if we hollowed that out, it will give people a place to stand and step. Plus the cruisers liked the racy look of the reverse transom, so it ended up a winner.
Now race boats have long since gone back to straight (plumb) transoms, what will happen to the scoops? You already start to see the cruising boats shifting back. Ah fashion!
At my first launch when I got my bought last spring, As my son backed her off the trailer, the instant she cleared the keel slot I heard a thud. Then the boat stopped. That rope which lifts the centerboard up rotted away. Now the launch ramp was getting crowded and I could not back away from the trailer. The harder we pushed the the more the centerboard tried to open like a jackknife.. Had to sling a line from side to side and drag it back tied the line to the rails and then pulled up until the board went back up.. I had to get the boat on a lift to replace it. But we did sail her that way that day and I have loved her ever since lol
For o'Day owners at least, Joe of Trinka has published photos and lots of how-to advice several times in different threads regarding inspection, repair, and parts diagrams for the centerboard. Attach is a photo of his profile.
