Thoughts about swing keel boats.

[Ray Bowles]

There has been a good deal of posting about swing keel boats. Some good, some frought with peril. For the most part these smaller boats were designed to be used with a trailer. The swing keel allowed the boat to be launched at shallow ramps with greater ease than a fixed keel.
If these boats had limited time in the water and a good deal of off-time resting on the trailer then the swing keel assembly lasted a very long time. This also allowed easy and frequent inspections of this assembly.

Over time a good number of these became full time floating boats with many keels left in the lowered position, often for years. This lead to greater wear on all working parts of the keel and the inspection process in many cases stopped. Their trailers sold as un-needed. The result of these changes can lead to catastrophic damage if a cable fails under use. Very few perspective owners of boats in this size range ever have surveys done. New to the sport owners have never thought of this area as a problem.

The solution to these problems are beyond my scope of knowledge. Possibly we on this site can make this area of concern know to newbe's as they ask for help finding their right first time boat.
Thanks for enduring my ramblings.
Ray

 

[Stu Jackson]

Good points, Ray, I added a link in that thread: http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=146558

 

[Jackdaw]

Good thoughts.

Many swing keel systems were not really engineered. Most of the small boat manufactures in the 70s did not have a naval architect on staff, and the design of the bearing system, trunk, lifting system, etc was really quite weak.

This is compounded by the fact that few expected these boats to still be in use 30 years later.

The keel listing system on a sailboat HAS to be looked at as a wearing part, and be subjected to regular replacement. As you note the FUF model (forget until failure) can have dire consequences.

 

[Manureva]

my lesson learned on swing keel

I have a sanjuan 23, and i had a few lesson learned on the swing keel system. before i bougth the boat, some idiot tied the boat to a non floating dock very short at high tide, the boat ended up supended from the dock at low tide. A crane was called and the previous owner attempted to straigten the bent keel with a sledge hammer, he got it somewath straitgh and forced it in the trunk. the boat was then left on the trailer for a few year unused.

Then i come in, fall in love with the lines of the boat, lets face it, a san juan 23 has nice crisp modern line that you cant stop looking at. I bougth the boat and the previous owner conveniently forgot to tell me about the dock mishap when i asked him why the boat was unused for so long... I get her in the water and the darn keel wont come down, so i removed the table and took a long aluminium flat bar and proceded to lower my keel hitting the flat bar with a big hammer. Needless to say the keel stayed down for the first summer.
getting it down with the flat bar wrecked the keel cable, so i got a diver to replace it. at fall i got it up as much as i could and let the weitgh of the boat get it all in when i got the boat back on its trailler.

In the winter , i bougth a peice of steel and made an other center board, after like 3 day of grinding and cutting while the boat was suspended off the trailler i got myself a new center board. Being cheap i tougth some resin over the new board followed with bottom paint would do the trick. I also made a new cable since i had to pound it out again to get the bent center board out of the trunk. Here is on LESSON the new cable was crimped with an aluminium cable cramp. DONT USE ALUMINIUM IT WILL MELT IN A SUMMER. so the day i went to get the boat out of the water, the damn cable came off the center board.... i got a diver again, and thinking i was a smart guy i used on of my old lower shroud with a pin to avoid the melting aluminium for ever.... guess wath it did not work, the pin got stuck half way up the trunk, once again, boat wheigth got the centerboard in for the winter....

I now hated the darn center board....

I did some reasearch and it turned out the ferulle to crimp the cable had to be made of copper, so i got the boat off the trailer for the second time to get a good cable in it...I once again had to pound it out and wrecked the cable. i made a new cable with the copper fitting. When i took the board out all of the resin had fallen and the boar was starting to rust....DONT USE RESIN ON STEEL UNDER WATER IT WILL PEEL OFF... so now i scraped off the resin mess, clean out the board to bare steel with a wire brush, and i coated it with som interprotect, folowed by a coat off white bottom paint. the pait has worked and the bord could be easily inspected on sunny day from the dock.

After all that work i finnaly have a board that work as intended, and the conviction that my next boat will not have a center board.

I got lucky to found a whealt of information on my boat on this website about the keel on my boat http://www3.telus.net/sail/sj23/b_hull_tips/b01.html

 

[Benny17441]

Good point. Purchasing a 30 year old swing keel boat ( not centerboard but ballasted keel) is a high stakes crap shoot unless the keel, pivot point and lowering and raising mechanism can be inspected. This cannot be done with the boat on a trailer.

 

[LloydB]

"...inspected. This cannot be done with the boat on a trailer." If you happen to be looking at one like mine you can inspect some parts, such as: the entire wench and cable except the last 18" at the keel, also confirm the keel will lift off the trailer and that it can pivot. You can shim the keel up enough to remove and inspect the pivot bolt and you can slide a handsaw along the keel trunk as you look for clearances and debris.(that requires that you roll up on some wheel blocks or be really skinny)

 

[MacNCheese]

As you mentioned, these weighted swing keels are 30 years old and eventually will give any new owner lots of trouble.

My advice to the new owners would be to avoid boats with weighted swing keels altogether because for not much more money, they could get a trailer sailor with a weighted centerboard like the Balboa 27 (only 140 lbs with low maintenance) or better yet the MacGregor 26C with no weighted swing keels at all.

 

[Tom Hoffman]

At the time I bought my boat, I was such a novice, I had only read about these type boats and really did not understand what they were. Honestly, I thought they swung side to side so they would always be pointed down vertically.

By sheer luck, I ended up buying a boat primarily because it was Cheap and ending up with a really good boat with a shoal draft fixed keel. It only extends down about 14 inches or so and the boat has a shallow draft of only 28". It does take a bit of finagling to get it launched, but so far nothing dramatic. Usually off the trailer at a ramp or with the help of a tractor at a Marina.

My friend Dave and I and our SWAMBO's sailed a ComPac in the Keys (23') it has a similar keel and sailed just like my boat.

For all you novice shoppers, You might want to look for shoal draft boats. They seem to be very solid and forgiving.

Here is mine

I think the keel slug (lead) weighs in around 1400 - 1600 lbs.

Tom...

 

[Tom Hoffman]

At the time I bought my boat, I was such a novice, I had only read about these type boats and really did not understand what they were. Honestly, I thought they swung side to side so they would always be pointed down vertically.

By sheer luck, I ended up buying a boat primarily because it was Cheap and ending up with a really good boat with a shoal draft fixed keel. It only extends down about 14 inches or so and the boat has a shallow draft of only 28". It does take a bit of finagling to get it launched, but so far nothing dramatic. Usually off the trailer at a ramp or with the help of a tractor at a Marina.

My friend Dave and I and our SWAMBO's sailed a ComPac in the Keys (23') it has a similar keel and sailed just like my boat.

For all you novice shoppers, You might want to look for shoal draft boats. They seem to be very solid and forgiving.

Here is mine

I think the keel slug (lead) weighs in around 1400 - 1600 lbs.

Tom...

 

[Sumner]

At the time I bought my boat, I was such a novice, I had only read about these type boats and really did not understand what they were. Honestly, I thought they swung side to side so they would always be pointed down vertically.....

Love it Tom . You ought to run for office then we would know there was at least one honest politician out there ,

Sum

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[Merlin Clark]

There was a design where a weighted keel swung athwartship (side to side) with the idea to shift the weight to weather and keep the boat more upright (faster).
I think Hunter raced one of these in the Key West race and the keel fell off. Boat fell over and sank.

 

[Joe Blizzard]

For all you novice shoppers, You might want to look for shoal draft boats. They seem to be very solid and forgiving.

I second that notion. (and I think I finally figured out how to embed an image)

 

[Jackdaw]

Another take..

The French has always seen the value of deep, heavy, and rigid keels on boats, and on smaller boats this was problematic. In 1978 Jean-Marie Finot came up with this solution that is still in use today. Beneteau and Pogo use this on high performance boats from 21 to 33 feet. On larger boats the screw is replaced by a hydraulic pump. Like any mechanical system, the lift is on a maintenance schedule, the screw should be replaced every 10 years or so. But it works brilliantly.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

As a former dealer, may I suggest something. First, swing keels have their place as it does lower the center of gravity or boat lower on the trailer which is good when towing as it will not sway as much when being pulled particualy on a single axle trailer. Make sure 10% of the entire weight of the boat and trailer are on the hitch for safety reasons and make sure the keel is all the way down on the keel tray. Inspect the keel tray for seaworthiness as well. In many cases the swing keel also allows the boat to sit on the trailer very low which is good for launching. A good example is the Sailor's Trailer by Road King for the Catalina 22 and Catalina 22 Sport swing keels as the trailer was designed for those two boats.

Inspect the keel cable at least every other year to include the bolts that retain the keel bolt in place for example the Catalina 22 and 25. make sure all gaskets are neophrene which in one case I found bubble gum. Yes you heard me, bubble gum.

If the boat is a brokerage boat and the broker wants to sell it, make it part of the deal for the broker to lift the boat for inspection at his expense if he has the gear because it will not take that long. This day and age many will be accomodating. When I sold brokerage, I insisted for the new buyer to allow me to pick up the boat and do an inspcection at my own expense. What they did not know, I had already done that and repaired it. The charge back was to the current owner which he paid if he wanted me to sell the boat. I found a clean functioning brokerage boat sold much quicker. I refused junkers in my yard. If not, that boat was sold with the notation of the keel issue to the new owner and on the Bill of Sale.

When purchasing, get a survey if you do not trust the broker or owner particularly if you are far far away in a distant galaxy as it will be alot easier. Also for a small fee, there are third party companies that will do the title transfer and money transfer as well which could also be a safeguard.

As for selling boats, also check out the one who is purchasing to make sure they are not scam artists which is growing. This year, I sold my daysailor and one fellow emailed me to send him a bill of sale without any address. When I got it, I checked the location of the phone which was in the Bronx, NY area for an address in California.
Sometimes it could be ligit with those moving keeping cell phones but I did send a bill of sale to the CA address which at the bottom required a notary. Funny thing, it came back as undeliverable which I figured it would be.

 

[CaptDon01]

Been there, done that.... We sailed a C-22 for many years when we lived in the midwest. Had a lot of fun on the old swing keeled C-22. She was a GREAT boat! I did all the maintenance and upgrades to the swing keel system. Never could completely eliminate the "CLUNK". Then we moved out to San Diego and sailing in a salt water environment, I didn't anything to do with a swing keel boat. We purchased a wing keel version C-22. The best of both worlds with the shoad draft wing keel. Only draws a few more inches than the swing keel version does with the keel up. No maintenance, no CLUNK, and best of all, the warm fuzzy feeling I get when we're out in the ocean and things get rough, it's nice to know my keel is through bolted with 6- 1/2" stainless steel threaded rods molded into the keel, than 4- 5/16" bolts threaded into a weldement suspended in fiberglass. I know, I know, the ocean floor isn't littered with swing keels, it's just my opinion.

Don

 

[Bosman]

Certainly centerboard/swing keel lift system have changed and evolved over the years. On my boat, one of the first items I checked was indeed the swing keel (or heavy centerboard) and right away I have replaced all the sheaves and the control line, as well as having the keel itself professionally refinished.

A lot of swing keel/centreboard boats in Europe have the system similar to the pictures below (I guess when the weight start to exceed 300lbs a hydraulic system is used), where there is a multi-block raising system and the control line goes up through the mast support pillar and back to the cockpit. Some models have a quick access panel on the side of the centreboard trunk allowing inspections and replacement of the control line, if required. However, in majority of cases boat has to be lifted up on a crane.

Stainless centreboard with pulleys

Access panel

And what is behind it

Another example, the unit is in the raised position

Details of the lifting sheaves

Another design, with the lifting mechanism at the end of the trailing edge. It is easier to lift, but creates more drag in the water. The boat is under construction.

 

[Jackdaw]

Bosman,

That rope-based lifting system gives me pause. I hope that is inspect--able and replaceable on the water.

On the the bigger French systems, (the first 260 keel weighs over 1000 lbs) they use either an electrically powered screw jack, or a hydraulic ram.

 

[kenn]

Thoughts about swing keel boats

Thoughts? Just one - I love that our Sandpiper 565 has a vertically-retracting lead-filled fiberglass keel. It is raised/lowered by a removable crank which turns a big honking bronze screw.

Advantages:
- the keels weight is UNDER the boat - adds sailing stability, enhanced righting moment
- retracts right into the hull. Our boat draws only 10" when it's up. Makes her super-easy to launch.
- minimal maintenance. Inspect and grease the bronze screw once every few years. Inspect keel for cracks and dings. Replace the thrust bearing if turning the crank gets rough.

Disadvantages:
- the trunk eats up some valuable cabin floorspace.
- when fully down, the keel can clonk a bit as the boat rocks at anchor
- if you ground or hit the keel hard, you might bend the (expensive) brass screw. You could even jam the keel in the trunk.
- if you fail to inspect the keel mechanism after a hard hit, you'd miss noticing whether the screw plate has cracked loose on the top of the keel, which might deteriorate over time and could even cause the keel to drop off, which will lead to the discovery that...
- replacement Sandpiper keels are expensive.

Fortunately our boat's keel was babied and it goes up/down like buttah.

 

[Bosman]

Bosman,

That rope-based lifting system gives me pause. I hope that is inspect--able and replaceable on the water.

On the the bigger French systems, (the first 260 keel weighs over 1000 lbs) they use either an electrically powered screw jack, or a hydraulic ram.

Why would it give you a pause?? There are literally thousands of boats with one or another variant of this type of system sold in Europe. These systems are very well design, they are simple and they work exceptionally well. The fact that North American market does not have much to offer in terms of retractable centreboard / keel does not help hence surprise. All of designs require replacement of the rope after at least 5-6 years to ensure safe operation. On some boats this can be done on the water, some other ones require crane. Keep in mind this system and its variants are only used for centreboards/light keels where weight does not exceed about 400-500 lbs. These boats have majority of the solid ballast installed in the hull.

 

[Jackdaw]

Why would it give you a pause?? There are literally thousands of boats with one or another variant of this type of system sold in Europe. These systems are very well design, they are simple and they work exceptionally well. The fact that North American market does not have much to offer in terms of retractable centreboard / keel does not help hence surprise. All of designs require replacement of the rope after at least 5-6 years to ensure safe operation. On some boats this can be done on the water, some other ones require crane. Keep in mind this system and its variants are only used for centreboards/light keels where weight does not exceed about 400-500 lbs. These boats have majority of the solid ballast installed in the hull.

Because I've never been a fan of using rope in the keel lifting applications. Its use (vs mechanical) is done solely as a cost saving measure, and in my opinion its a poor place to cost-cut. Its wears and rots, and normally works fine until it catastrophically fails. Good mechanical systems, while have a service life of 2-3 times as long, will normally get difficult to use as they wear, letting you know they need attention.

Or maybe I've just seen too many Odays (who made 1000's of boats with rope as the centerboard lift) with centerboards stuck in the down position due to broken lines! ;^)