Defending Our Passengers + Vessels

[John]

It's interesting

to me that subjects like this one always seem to have the longest threads on this site. What is so odd is that unlike almost every other subject on this site, my strongest suspicion is that almost every person commenting is less likely to be faced with a threat on their boat than almost any other issue raised on this forum. For some reason, it seems to me, a lot of people enjoy fantasizing about what they would do if faced with this kind of threat. From everything I've read by cruisers, there are a lot of dangers that are a lot more serious than the one covered on this thread.

 

[L0keman]

I agree with John above. That being said, I would never like to be in a position where I wished I had a gun and not had one. I carry an assult rifle and pistol. My home port is a military installation and I never go far or cross state lines. I hope to get a larger boat and travel much further distances and don't know what I will do then.

 

[ginoe]

flare gun to .22 rimfire

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPrnyc03C2Q

 

[CaptJake]

I think I'll chime in on this one;
The decision to carry/not carry or own/not own a firearm has always been a personal one. It IS a right guaranteed under the constitution of THIS country but again, with that being said, refer to the beginning of the post. Having served in combat I say this; Taking on a better trained, better armed enemy, from an indefensible position is risky at best. LETHAL at worst. The BEST way for a skipper to defend his vessel, crew, passengers, and him/herself, is to know (a)WHERE YOU ARE AT ALL TIMES. (b)THE RISKS OF THAT LOCATION. AND (c)AVAILABILTY OF HELP. If the map shows a reef; don't sail there. If the news says pirates; don't sail there. If the US NAVY isn't safe from attack...............

 

[monkeybars]

captnjake is right.here in redneck AZ there is no permit required for concealed weapons,anyone over 18 can carry a concealed weapon anytime,and alot of people do inculding myself but i wouldn't pull into a 7-11 at midnight in the bad side of town for a cup of coffe just because im armed.most situations can be avoided just by being aware of your surroundings and listening to your sixth sense or gut feelings.

 

[kpgraci]

I'd assumed the premise was not so much carrying a gun on your boat in US waters, I would with the expectation that even if that violated some local gun laws I'd rather face a jury of my peers with the argument that my life was in danger and that's why I shot the guy. Who's going to contradict me?

In foreign ports it is much more problematic. Being an American in legal trouble in a foreign land could actually work against you. I would not risk violating another countries gun laws. Period.

 

[Forrest15112]

captnjake is right.here in redneck AZ there is no permit required for concealed weapons,anyone over 18 can carry a concealed weapon anytime,and alot of people do inculding myself but i wouldn't pull into a 7-11 at midnight in the bad side of town for a cup of coffe just because im armed.most situations can be avoided just by being aware of your surroundings and listening to your sixth sense or gut feelings.

You might want to look into that concealed carry without a permit again. Many states have open carry laws that allow open carry without permit but the info I have indicates AZ does indeed require permits for concealed carry and training to get one like most states.

 

[CaptJake]

Perhaps I should have been a little clearer (apologies)................carrying a weapon onboard your vessel (even in international waters and foreign ports) CAN be done legally. It's a very complicated process but it can be done. The gist of the post remains the same though.

 

[SEMIJim]

Perhaps I should have been a little clearer (apologies)................carrying a weapon onboard your vessel (even in international waters and foreign ports) CAN be done legally. It's a very complicated process but it can be done. The gist of the post remains the same though.

Capt Jake, no offense intended, but I think you're pulling that out of... the air. For example: I know, for a fact, that if you're found to have weapons aboard in Canadian or Mexican waters, much less their ports, you'd be in serious trouble. As for weapons aboard in U.S. waters: The USCG has adopted the policy that... how to explain this...? where the waters would be state waters if they weren't federal, the state laws regarding firearms will be observed. In Michigan, boats are generally regarded as the same as motor vehicles. Thus, in most boats one must have a concealed carry permit. If the boat was of a size, had sleeping quarters, a galley and a head, one might be able to make the argument that a boat was ones domicile, in which case perhaps the same rules would apply as on ones private property on land. I don't know as there's been an AG position issued on that.

Jim

 

[monkeybars]

forrest (not gump i hope) you have outdated data and must not watch much news, it was lead story for over a week on cnn fox msnbc etc, courtesy of gov brewer, of sb 1070 fame effective 4-2011, carry permiits are still sold for use in other states who reciprocate each others carry authority, i beleive with an az permit you can be legal in 10-12 other states also.

 

[Gary_H]

My NC concealed carry permit is recognized in the following states via reciprocal agreement between the states.

Alabama Kentucky Pennsylvania
Alaska Louisiana South Carolina
Arizona Michigan South Dakota
Arkansas Mississippi Tennessee
Colorado Missouri Texas
Delaware Montana Utah
Florida Nebraska Virginia
Georgia Nevada Washington
Idaho New Hampshire (resident permits only) West Virginia
Indiana North Dakota Wyoming
Iowa Ohio
Kansas Oklahoma

 

[CaptJake]

Well SemiJim, no offense, but that is simply not correct.
*How it works in STATE controlled Waters*
The USCG enforces FEDERAL not STATE laws (thats not to say they can't or won't detain you and notify state authorities if they feel the need). The state laws concerning firearms onboard is not an "adopted policy" of the CG, it has always been the law in each individual state. If you are found to be in violation of a STATE law concerning the possesion of a firearm onboard a vessel the CG's only recourse is to notify STATE authorities as they are FEDERAL officers and there is no FEDERAL law concerning a firearm onboard. You may look that one up if you choose ("Orato: Surviving a CG Boarding" is a good search)or call your local CG Station and ask; you will find the previous is correct information. "Barring STATE statute, it IS NOT illegal to have a weapon onboard your vessel" (Legal with state law, Legal with the Coasties). The CG WILL ask if you have one onboard but this is simply for their safety, not for enforcement purposes.
If you have a valid concealed carry permit (or whatever your state calls it) and you are in that state's waters, or in the waters controlled by a reciprocity state (ie. one that recognises your state's permit) you are perfectly legal.
Look that up. Apologize for being rude. And I'll tell ya how ya do it in "other" waters; LEGALLY.

 

[SEMIJim]

Well SemiJim, no offense, but that is simply not correct.
*How it works in STATE controlled Waters*
The USCG enforces FEDERAL not STATE laws ...

I didn't write "in state controlled waters." The waters to which I was referring are waters that fall under both state and federal jurisdiction. The waters bordering Canada and the U.S., for example. They are patrolled by both local (county, as a rule, in MI) law enforcement and the USCG (and other elements of DHS). If you are found to be in violation of Michigan firearms laws, the USCG (and, I imagine, other elements of DHS) will detain you for local LE. Feel free to quibble over whether that constitutes "enforcement" if you wish, as, if there's a distinction, it's one w/o a difference.

And I'll tell ya how ya do it in "other" waters; LEGALLY.

I'd certainly be interested in knowing how one could legally possess firearms in the waters of a country that strictly prohibits their possession. Mexico's firearms laws are every bit as Draconian as are the U.K.'s, only with stiffer penalties in much less pleasant prison facilities. (My interest is merely academic, however, as I've no plans to go anywhere near Mexico anytime in the near future--or perhaps forever.) As for Canada: I know there are ways to legally transport weapons in or through the country, but the paperwork and other requirements are quite onerous: Canada's Gun Laws for Americans and Bringing Firearms Into Canada: Non-Resident Visitor. Neither country gives a hoot about LEOSA, either.

Regards,
Jim

 

[Forrest15112]

forrest (not gump i hope) you have outdated data and must not watch much news, it was lead story for over a week on cnn fox msnbc etc, courtesy of gov brewer, of sb 1070 fame effective 4-2011, carry permiits are still sold for use in other states who reciprocate each others carry authority, i beleive with an az permit you can be legal in 10-12 other states also.

That makes sense now. I originally looked up the info from a link on a gun blog I frequent and it linked to the Az Dept of Public Safety. I saw all the requirements for a permit but nothing about no permit required. I looked up the law you referred to and it is indeed what you say. I will forward to my rep in hopes that my state follows suit.

Az=Awesome! Top of my list for vacation now!

 

[monkeybars]

SEMIjim, There is much misinfo on guns in mexico most of it none factual.Mexico has a huge tourist industry based on hunting, all of which require guns,and US citizens take their guns into mexico everyday, you just have to do it legally which requires some paperwork and additional inspections at the border.they donot however allow military style weapons or handguns, only sporting type rifles and shotguns,and you also have to check in with the US customs guys when departing and declare your gun when returning into the US. been there done that, no problema

 

[ILikeRust]

From everything I've read by cruisers, there are a lot of dangers that are a lot more serious than the one covered on this thread.

Does that mean one should do nothing to be prepared for it?

 

[kenn]

Does that mean one should do nothing to be prepared for it?

It means that one shouldn't waste time and energy worrying and arguing about very remote possibilities.

(die, thread, die :cussing: )

 

[zeehag]

dont take guns to mexico.
port cpt is a fine person to report problems to and does help in situations of damages and thefts involving tourism. there has been a shortage of tourists to fleece, so they are protecting us. lol. have a good trip and donot worry so much. what is reported in news is not happening beyond borders. goood luck and smooth sailing.
read my thread -- la noche de los bandidos....lol the port cpt didnt like the involvement of hydra(panga belonging to sempra energy corp) in a potential ripping off of a tourista, and there has been no repeat of this activity in ensenada harbor.

louisville slugger, noise and bright light work well.... dont need guns. will only get you into a government owned nasty place from which escape is nil...

btw--port cpt is the one to whom to report a fleecing by taxi drivers, also-- they may charge way too much-- report it to port cpt and will cease. have fun and smooth sailing.

 

[CaptJake]

Thank you to Ray for that tidbit. MOST of the info on guns in Mexico and other countries(as in what you "hear" on the internet)is complete BS.
As far as SemiJim; sounds like we are making the same argument now. IT CAN be done legally you just have to know how.
I NEVER said it was easy or a walk in the park and will again state "it is a long complicated process, that is almost never worth the effort".
As far as other waters go;
1) We weren't referring to having a weapon in a foreign country, just onboard.
HUGE distinction here; both legally and logistically. There are numerous countries that simply WILL NOT allow you to have or carry a weapon while ASHORE. But we're not talking about that. The simple, short version of that is; you do it, you go to prison.
2) This is the very short version of how it's done LEGALLY while ON THE WATER. Let me repeat that, ON THE WATER.
a) You must have a USCG registered vessel flying a US flag.
b) The SPECIFIC weapon, MUST be registered with BATF.
c) You MUST have a valid PERSONAL IMPORT/EXPORT document on file for the weapon.(this document allows for the import/export of a firearm by an individual) It is also necessary to have one if you are going to hunt or compete in a shooting event in a foreign country and shows you are the legal owner and are simply transporting the firearm.
d)You must have a valid NON-TRANSFERRANCE document (this document doesn't mean you can't transport the weapon, it means you can't sell it as you intend the weapon for personal use). Again required for hunting and shooting trips abroad.
e) This is where it really gets tricky...........EVERY COUNTRY HAS DIFFERENT LAWS CONCERNING FIREARM POSSESION WHICH WILL LAND YOU IN DEEP TROUBLE IF YOU BREAK THEM. So; when you put into a port you had better KNOW what to do. Most of the ones I've been in (can't give a blanket statement here) follow this procedure.................
IMMEDIATELY upon arrival and WITHOUT the weapon; Leave it SECURED ONBOARD your vessel, Go to customs with your documentation and DECLARE the weapon. You MUST do this in order to remain compliant with US LAW (remember that at this point you are a US vessel entering customs and HAVE NOT encroached on the sovereign soil of another country (this is a VERY important step, otherwise NO ONE would be allowed to transport a firearm internationally or hunt or competitively shoot outside their own country). At this point customs will tell you what you need to do to remain legal. In Canada; I have been required to surrender the weapon into bond with the ammo and it must remain there until I depart (or in my case bond it out to compete). In Mexico; I have gone through bond surrender (got my 1911 back once with fewer rounds -after federale target practice I assumed- than I left it with), and on one occasion they simply told me not to bring it ashore and did nothing else.
And there you have it. Anyone who hunts outside the US, or shoots in competition (as I do), knows there are legal ways to have a firearm onboard. AGAIN; it ain't easy and can go badly quickly without all your ducks in a row.
AND WITH ALL THAT BEING SAID............If you had read my original comment you would have known that I was recommending NOT DOING IT. "Taking on a well armed, better trained enemy, with superior numbers, from an indefensible position, is RISKY at best. LETHAL at it's worst.
INFORMATION is the best weapon to have onboard, NOT firepower.

 

[Ross]

Google "high power handheld lasers" Guns are so yesterday.