Defending Our Passengers + Vessels

[sinnettc]

Here's one reason not to have them on your boat, or at least not loaded . . .

http://www.timescolonist.com/Port+Angeles+faces+jail+loaded+handguns/4786560/story.html

 

[JohnShannon]

It is really great fun to plan for the apocalypse with variations about "how much apocalypse are we talking" As a practical matter if you really want to increase you chance of not dying whilst sailing, wear your PFD, have proper gear for the weather, know how to deal with a man overboard, make sure your crew knows how to deal with a man overboard. Have a radio with DSC and GPS, keep an eye to the weather and enjoy.

 

[Ray Bowles]

My question to those gun advocates that responded to this posting is what is your answer to Ducati's post. Sure you might be inclined to carry on your boat but what is your answer if you enter Mexican waters? What about the Bahamas or any of the South American countries?
Packing in the US and our national waters is an easy thing but that ease goes to Hell in other waters. We actually lived aboard and cruised in the Gulf, Keys, Eastern Seaboard and Bahamas. We met and made friends with quite a few other cruisers with about 20% being of foreign nationalities and sailing foreign registered boats. Absolutly no one was carrying firearms because of the difficulties entering other countries.
I have been a firearms safety instructor and hunter my entire life. I own rifles and shotguns. I prefer not to be around pistols. This has nothing to do with anything or anyone that feels differently about handguns. Just personel preference.
This is my response to Ducati. Any other answers to his post?
Ray

 

[Slade]

Here's one reason not to have them on your boat, or at least not loaded . . .

http://www.timescolonist.com/Port+Angeles+faces+jail+loaded+handguns/4786560/story.html

I disagree a bit. It's certainly a reason to have done your homework and not put yourself in that position. It's pretty easy to find out that the Canadians don't want you bringing firearms into their country. I rode to Alaska and made the decision to not carry on that trip for this particular reason.

This also I think answers the OP's and Ray's question in that if it's not legal then you have a choice to take a chance of spending some quality time with that country's inmates or travel in the best of circumstances and hope for the best.

Lots of folks will say they're not armed. Not all of them are telling the truth.

 

[Sailm8]

I don't own a gun and probably never will since I don't see a need, I also have no problem with those who defend the 2nd amendment and own guns as law abiding citizens. But aren't you ethically bound to leave the gun at home when you travel to another country that does not allow guns. How can you be law abiding citizen on our country and a scoff law in another. Is this an example of the "Arrogant American" foreigners criticize us for?

 

[RobertLangdirect]

You cant take a handgun up and down the east coast of the USA and stop in different states there are so MANY different handgun rules without some pretty serious legal issues

A long gun perhaps a handgun no way at least legal

Really? In what State is it illegal to have a handgun in your home? The boat is "home" in the eyes of the law.

 

[tommays]

I am no laywer BUT my son is a Long Island ADA and handguns are really locked down in this neck of the woods

You could get a CC permit upstate NY but it worthless passing through NYC or Long Island and it trips up truck drivers all the time

Its tough for most people to get more than a permit to transport a handgun between your home and the range

Long guns are not much of a problem at all

 

[Sandy Stone]

"The boat is home in the eyes of the law"
Try telling the Coast Guard they can't board your boat without a warrant.

 

[Ross]

Deleted: quoted wrong poster

 

[Ross]

Really? In what State is it illegal to have a handgun in your home? The boat is "home" in the eyes of the law.

Only for income tax purposes. For the US Coast Guard it is just another vessel.

 

[John]

One issue is the point made about being a law abiding citizen in the US and a scofflaw elsewhere.

Then there's the practical question: Lattitude 38, the sailing mag here in the SF Bay area, has reported about one or two cases of sailors/cruisers being killed when boarded by robbers. It seems that in all these cases they were killed after resisting or after pulling a gun. In the other cases they reported on, where the cruiser simply let them take what they wanted, they were almost never physically harmed. So the statistics seem to show that you have a better chance of being harmed or killed if you have a gun aboard and pull it on a thief. Not always, but that seems to be the odds.

 

[Ray Bowles]

This posting by Ducati has covered both ends of having guns aboard your boat. To carry firearms for the purpose of protecting yourself, those aboard and your property is fine as long as you obay all the laws of any country you enter. If you chose to try and skirt those laws the penalty will be quite severe. The cruising sailor is simply a visitor to these other countries and must abide their laws. Very few to none allow weapons. The odds of running into life threatening situations is very,very small. In review of our experences we found the hassles of clearance with firearms, into and out of foreign locations more trouble than it was worth. There are other ways to remain safe.
Ray

 

[doehunter]

One issue is the point made about being a law abiding citizen in the US and a scofflaw elsewhere.

Then there's the practical question: Lattitude 38, the sailing mag here in the SF Bay area, has reported about one or two cases of sailors/cruisers being killed when boarded by robbers. It seems that in all these cases they were killed after resisting or after pulling a gun. In the other cases they reported on, where the cruiser simply let them take what they wanted, they were almost never physically harmed. So the statistics seem to show that you have a better chance of being harmed or killed if you have a gun aboard and pull it on a thief. Not always, but that seems to be the odds.

I haven't seen or read that mag, but I have a sneaking suspicion that they fit into the anti group and have an agenda to support.
If you are going to pull a gun in defense, you can't give the other party a chance to react. You have to be 1st, and shoot straight. If you can't do that, leave it out of site.
I can picture those victims freaking out, probably thinking they can scare the bad guys by waving a gun around, or being so scared that they can't shoot. That will get you shot.

 

[John]

Actually

I haven't seen or read that mag, but I have a sneaking suspicion that they fit into the anti group and have an agenda to support....


Maybe you have that suspicion because the magazine is from the SF Bay Area. Actually, the publisher is extremely conservative, favors the death penalty, etc. etc. They just report the news as it happens. We all have our prejudices, but we shouldn't let them get in the way of objectively observing the facts. you can read Latitude 38 online.

 

[Forrest15112]

One issue is the point made about being a law abiding citizen in the US and a scofflaw elsewhere.

Then there's the practical question: Lattitude 38, the sailing mag here in the SF Bay area, has reported about one or two cases of sailors/cruisers being killed when boarded by robbers. It seems that in all these cases they were killed after resisting or after pulling a gun. In the other cases they reported on, where the cruiser simply let them take what they wanted, they were almost never physically harmed. So the statistics seem to show that you have a better chance of being harmed or killed if you have a gun aboard and pull it on a thief. Not always, but that seems to be the odds.

Your "statistics" are a couple of stories in a sailing magazine? Basing those odds on a pretty small sample aren't we?

 

[Ross]

In the movie ,"The Good, The Bad and The Ugly" The man said, "if you are going to shoot, then shoot, don't talk about it."

 

[John]

True

Your "statistics" are a couple of stories in a sailing magazine? Basing those odds on a pretty small sample aren't we?

Forrest, if you look at what I wrote, I was pretty conditional. I wrote that it "seems" to be the case. You are completely right that there has been no statistical study with enough cases to prove anything one way or another. It's mainly just reports here and there. That's the general impression I get is all.

By the way, I am not pro gun control or anything like that. I am not in love with guns either. I thought about carrying a gun if I went on a long term cruise, but from what I've read I now think it would be a mistake.

The other thing is this: What I do definitely think is that in a case of a boat invasion by robbers while the owners are aboard, I do think it's a bad mistake to pull a gun and just threaten the thieves. I think that if you're going to pull a gun, then you have to pull it to use it immediately, not to chase the person off the boat.

Now I know that there is a lot of posturing by a lot of people, but I wonder how many are really prepared to just shoot somebody when their life is not immediately threatened. And let's not forget that the legal system in countries like Mexico is very different from here. It's very possible that if you shoot somebody down there, as a North American you could be the one found to have committed the crime. I'm not saying it's right, just that that's the way it could well be. Do you really want to spend years in a Mexican jail? Or spend who know how many thousands to bribe your way out of criminal charges?

 

[shemandr]

The advent of taking hostages is a game changer. You can no longer assume that criminals are merely after your property. Now, you are more valuable than your property.
I don't sail in foreign waters and do not own any guns. But I don't think those who do should be comforted by the tactic of acquiescence.

 

[Forrest15112]

Forrest, if you look at what I wrote, I was pretty conditional. I wrote that it "seems" to be the case. You are completely right that there has been no statistical study with enough cases to prove anything one way or another. It's mainly just reports here and there. That's the general impression I get is all.

By the way, I am not pro gun control or anything like that. I am not in love with guns either. I thought about carrying a gun if I went on a long term cruise, but from what I've read I now think it would be a mistake.

The other thing is this: What I do definitely think is that in a case of a boat invasion by robbers while the owners are aboard, I do think it's a bad mistake to pull a gun and just threaten the thieves. I think that if you're going to pull a gun, then you have to pull it to use it immediately, not to chase the person off the boat.

Now I know that there is a lot of posturing by a lot of people, but I wonder how many are really prepared to just shoot somebody when their life is not immediately threatened. And let's not forget that the legal system in countries like Mexico is very different from here. It's very possible that if you shoot somebody down there, as a North American you could be the one found to have committed the crime. I'm not saying it's right, just that that's the way it could well be. Do you really want to spend years in a Mexican jail? Or spend who know how many thousands to bribe your way out of criminal charges?

But I did look at what you wrote. I just didn't put as much condition to "seem". You seem to base your judgement on very few observations.

 

[doehunter]

I find that statistics are usually swayed so I don't blindly just believe everything I'm told. Take for example anything you read from the NRA. They make it sound like they've done their homework, and things would be better if everyone was armed! I think that would be a disaster but I'm glad we as Americans still have the right to protect ourselves.
If you travel to other countries, you have to obey their laws or risk paying for not doing it.