Defending Our Passengers + Vessels

[thinwater]

You did exacty what a reasonable person would do...

I have told my wife that if someone was holding a knife to her and I had a gun that I would shoot to kill them and then worry about helping her with first aid - there is no way I would ever relinquish the gun. As for most of the advice, a low key approach is best. If I felt I needed it I would carry a gun and shoot to kill. My preferred handgun is a .45 as I like the knock down power, not impressed with the 9mm (pretty, but not really impressive). Other than that use a shotgun and don't hesitate.

And don't get me going on Somali pirates. 2 armed guards per ship that put a hole in anything unidentified coming at them a mile away in the middle of the ocean would be all it takes. Once the pirates started to go to sea and did not return, the rest would figure it out.

and what they do on TV. You waited until it was clearly a defensive situation.

Your second example is more proactive and I think more to the point. Once your boarded your options are very limited. My concern with a small boat is that I can only leave the site at 7 knots; what if they come back? It's not a situation where I can leave or call the cops.

I think the ship owners are concerned about the risk of anti-ship missles and the like. Heck I don't know. It does seem obvious that the acuracy differentcial between a sniper on a 400-foot vessel (elevated position) and a speed boat would be substancial. But that is off topic.

The decision for most of us is to limit our cruising. Too bad. But in truth, it is only a modern myth that the world is an easy and safe place to live.

 

[Kettlewell]

My two cents is that 99.9% of the time you are safer onboard your boat than you are at home, assuming you also keep a place on land. Having cruised between Labrador and Colombia for more than 30 years there has never been one moment I wished I had a gun except when there were polar bears around up in Labrador. Even then I never needed one. In practical terms, if local officials find you have a gun aboard in some places, even here in the USA (like handguns in New York City), and you don't have a permit for that particular location, you are very likely to be arrested and end up in jail. Most other countries do not look on guns as something normal to carry around like some do here in the USA. A few years back a cruiser was passing through NY and anchored for the night. The police boarded his boat for some reason and he was carted off to jail because he did not have a NY City handgun permit. Leave the guns ashore and you will be happier and healthier for it, but that will not convince those who believe otherwise.

 

[mccauley13]

I'd carry a cop but they are too heavy and take up too much room. So, I legally carry a .45 not because I'm looking for trouble but because I don't want any. Besides, I'm too old to get into a fistfight.

 

[rpwillia]

Actually ...

and what they do on TV. You waited until it was clearly a defensive situation.

Your second example is more proactive and I think more to the point. Once your boarded your options are very limited. My concern with a small boat is that I can only leave the site at 7 knots; what if they come back? It's not a situation where I can leave or call the cops.

On the first we were watching TV one time and I made that comment. Personally if I was that concerned it would never get to that point. The 7 knots is correct, but 2 sailboats were attacked off of Yemen and one had a shotgun onboard his steel sailboat where he shot up one and rammed the other. Big mistake was he let one boat get away and was later told in the port in Sa'Nah that the relative were ticked and wanted revenge. Better to let them wonder.

 

[sinnettc]

Kettlewell - I've also heard that carrying a knife that you can open with your thumb, such as a rigging knife, can get you arrested.

Dad knows a couple of bicyclists who were cycling up the East Coast and visited NYC; they bought rigging knives in a store in NYC, thinking they'd be handy for camping, and were arrested as soon as they walked out the door with them. Apparently you can sell them, but you can't own them.

 

[fox islander]

The DOJ statistic related to guns in the home is your 22 times more likely to killl a family member than a stranger. Why would it be any different on a boat?

 

[Gary_H]

If you carry a weapon don't get one so nice that you would hesitate to dump it overboard if neccesary. look around the boat, you can find many items that when properly assembled or manipulated make very good weapons. The main thing is to sink the bodies. The crabs got to eat too.

 

[Forrest15112]

The DOJ statistic related to guns in the home is your 22 times more likely to killl a family member than a stranger. Why would it be any different on a boat?

Do you have a link for this? I don't doubt you, I'm curious as to how they determined the number.

 

[Gary_H]

Yea that's BS data manipulation. The determination should be made based on the individual and realistic assessments of abilities and attitudes. In the end your tactical accessment of a given scenario will determine your course of action. No two will be the same.

 

[JohnShannon]

I believe it, but they say it like its a bad thing.

 

[LuzSD]

Gary, what is this a picture of??

 

[Gary_H]

Gary, what is this a picture of??


Military Armaments Corporation M-10 .45 caliber

 

[Forrest15112]

Gary, what is this a picture of??


Military Armaments Corporation M-10 .45 caliber

You forgot to add the Tim Taylor grunting. Someone should start a thread on improvised weapons since most here agree its a useless discussion outside the US and just so happens to be the place you would need firearms the most.

 

[Ross]

If you intend to go into harm's way you need overwhelming firepower and that is not permitted on civilian vessels. So just stay the he** away from the trouble spots in the world. That is a big ocean out there , you ought to be able to find a safe place to play without needing to shoot somebody.

 

[Faris]

There are two kinds of attacks (at sea or on land). There are random acts of violence, and there are preplanned and calculated assaults. At sea, the former kind is rare - the risks are just too high for the attackers. The only thing that invites such an attack is being in the wrong place at the wrong time and looking like it would be financially lucrative to attack you. If your boat weighs in at under a 1/4 million, don't worry about it. They don't want you unless you've provided them some other reason to think it is worthwhile.

Piracy starts ashore. The people you interact with on shore (buying fuel and supplies, getting repairs, etc.) are assessing your value and the ease of taking you as a target. They will not bother burning the fuel to go out a few miles and meet you on the water if you don't meet this particular group's criteria.

So, are you going to make sure everyone you meet on shore knows that you are a crazy gun totin' American redneck and will shoot to kill anything in range? Enjoy prison and/or fines if you do. Also, this just increases your risk of being assaulted on land or having your weapons (and other valuables) stolen from your vessel while you are not there.

Or, are you going to wait until approached by pirates on the water who are already pointing weapons (plural) at you to surprise them with whatever weapon you have? I guarantee they've got more firepower.

Or, do you just try to scare off every vessel with your firearm before they reveal their intentions by pointing weapons at you?

Honestly, for those who think firearms are a good way for private yachts to defend against pirates - what is your game plan? Show me any evidence (outside of the movies) that this is an effective strategy. For every account I have seen of someone being successful with this, I can show you at least one person who died in the attempt and several who could not get to their weapon in time.

Your best defense is not making yourself a target. In dangerous regions: keep a low profile, try not to appear affluent and/or American, minimize your time in any one area, minimize your contact with people on shore, don't give anyone any information they don't need, don't let anyone on board unless you have nothing of value in site, don't tell people which direction you are actually going when you leave, and treat people fairly and with respect. Your best weapon is lack of information and misinformation. This is how you prevent a situation from arising in the first place.

Also, in organized areas such as Somalia, it may be useful to know the boundaries of each band's region and what their MOI is. It has been suggested that going ashore near the edge of a band's region, then immediately crossing into the adjacent region, that this may help. I don't think this has been shown to be effective, but it sounds reasonable.

It's all about being smarter, not better armed. Which are you? And, if you say "both", it is pretty clear indication that you are neither.

 

[Slade]

Only took 3 pages and 9 days before the insults arrived. Not bad.

 

[John]

While I haven't cruised to foreign lands, I have traveled quite a bit. I really think people may be a bit paranoid, or else just enjoy fantasizing about what they would do if...

The real joy of traveling is meeting other peoples, especially those outside of the tourist industry. If you read what a lot of cruisers say, it's more or less the same thing. As for myself, I've been in some pretty "dicey" countries and places, and it's only been a few times that I felt or was threatened. Those risks more than made up for what I gained. Faris wrote: "The people you interact with on shore (buying fuel and supplies, getting repairs, etc.) are assessing your value and the ease of taking you as a target." Maybe he didn't mean it like it came off, but the great majority of people are not assessing you as a target the minute they meet you; they are assessing you as to whether you are a decent human being.

 

[jimmcgee]

Some random thoughts:

I usually don’t bother with these threads because the people posting are unlikely to change their opinions. Not sure why I stuck with this one…

I haven’t sailed overseas but I’ve traveled to quite a few places. Some weren’t very nice. In many of them I was working as a photojournalist and there was more $$ in my camera bag than the locals made in a year. I was never robbed. Situational awareness, common sense, street smarts and an ability to make people laugh were my weapons.

99.9% of the people I met were good decent people regardless of the country. You learn to spot and avoid the bad ones.

I coastal cruise. I wouldn’t go somewhere I felt was really unsafe. In a place like Baltimore’s Inner Harbor I would lock my hatch doors from the inside before going to sleep, which I think is a reasonable precaution, but a precaution I don’t take sleeping aboard in my home marina.

The odds of being boarded where I sail are so small as to not be worth worrying about.

Were I on a world cruise I would take reasonable precautions but not carry. Too much hassle for a low probability risk.

I was talking with Lisa Copeland at the Annapolis boat show. She and her husband circumnavigated with their children on their Beneteau. Their book Cruising for Cowards contains a LOT of common sense advice. Their take on guns “Those who didn’t have them said they’d never encountered a situation where they were needed. Those who did had all encountered situations where they felt they’d needed them.” (paraphrasing). Interpret as you will.

 

[Faris]

Maybe he didn't mean it like it came off, but the great majority of people are not assessing you as a target the minute they meet you; they are assessing you as to whether you are a decent human being.

Absolutely true. I was only saying that, when attacks of this nature do happen, this is how they start. I hope that the central message I conveyed was that this is exceptionally UN-likely to happen at all unless you are cruising in a very expensive yacht in a known dangerous area, but that, as you pointed out, carrying guns on board was based more on a fantasy than reality.

Getting arrested and/or fined for carrying guns where they are not allowed - that's a bit closer to reality. You can decrease this risk by hiding them exceptionally well, but that makes it exponentially more difficult to talk your way out of. You had better stash some money there as well because you'll need it to bribe your way out of the hole you've dug.

I also have not cruised in such regions, but I have traveled extensively through North Africa, the Middle East, Central America, and Europe. These travels include 3 months in Somalia. This is a land of contradictions. On one hand, these are some of the warmest people on the planet. On the other hand, there are some desperate folks there with no sense of conscience that we would recognize.

I would say, first, don't cruise there. Unless you are very savvy, you will run into problems of some sort. Forget about piracy - something will go wrong, and if you don't speak the language and know people, you will be taken advantage of. If you are lucky, it will just cost you money. So, unless you already are experienced with the region and know how to handle yourself (without firearms), there are just certain areas of the world that you should avoid. It really is that bad.

Second, if you ignore the advice not to go there, take the advice I laid out in my previous post.

Third, every region is different. Some places, you can pay for a "guide" who assures your "safety". He works for the same thugs from whom he is protecting you, but this is how it works. In some regions, this will get you killed. In MOST places, you don't have to worry about anything - just be smart and minimize temptation. But, you really need to know the region in which you will be traveling.

 

[Gary_H]

With me it's really a moot issue since I have no intention if cruising abroad. Frankly I did enough overseas travel in the military to know that there's nothing "over there" that we don't have better here in the good old USA. I rarely carry a gun aboard even though I have carried a gun practically every day for the last 26 years. It may not be practical to carry a firearm into foreign territory. As I said there are many very lethal weapons that can be improvised from common items found on board. The main thing is to be tactically aware and prepared before they approach your boat. Unless they are government officials no one has any reason to come right up to your boat uninvited.