Sailboat Capsizes In San Diego

[LuzSD]

Quote:
What type of sailboat is used?
Our fleet consists of monohull sailboats which have keels to provide greater stability. As opposed to the traditional dinghy or sabot-sized sailboat used in traditional youth sailing instruction, the keel boats are larger with our fleet ranging from 22’ up to 56’. In addition to the stability provided for introductory Daysails, the boats offer more advantages such as larger cockpits to accommodate more participants, as well as larger deck service for moving around and exploring the boat. Also, the boat and cockpit are positioned higher up from the water, making it much safer and more appealing for novice sailors. You can read more details about our fleet by selecting your region of interest and viewing the pictures and boat descriptions under 'Fleet and Captains'.
with a description like this, anyone who really did not know sailing would be made to feel confident that they would be safe and in good hands. This just makes it so much worse in my mind. I am so frustrated by incompetence and lack of attention to detail in particular the manner some companies advertise. Seems it is all about selling words of competence rather than truly being safe and forth coming. These families just blindly trusted these folks......

 

[FourPoints]

I retract my previous statement saying I could understand if the skipper climbed on this boat not knowing.... there are numerous pictures of him on this same exact boat from earlier this year.

 

[MSN-Travelers]

I think Scott makes a valid point. The after checking out the website, it sounds like the skipper is used to regular keel boats, and when he hopped in this Mac 25, it seems he treated it like a normal keel boat. He may not have known that with 10 people, the boat would be horribly and fatally overloaded.

That said, any half competent skipper should have noticed that the bow was a foot out of the water, the boat was listing 15deg to port due to the uneven weight in the stern, and if that wasn't enough, The engine was half submerged! Do I think climbing on board and expecting the boat to act like a normal keel boat is wrong, not unless he was given warning, or there was clear warning posted in the boat for him to see. HOWEVER, he should have recognized the warning signs that are CLEARLY visible in that picture, and should have never left the dock.


From the Heart of Sailing website

The charity web site has a photo gallery section. The photo's show he had been using this specific boat since the end of January. The same photo's show he was in the habit of letting his passenger walk/play on the deck forward of the mast.

One of the news reports indicated the "overload" picture may have been taken the day before the accident. Eye witness reports now have the boat under sail with only the Genoa and with several people at the bow immediately before the accident.

This guy was flirting with disaster and the right set of condition came together, bit him in the butt and now two people are dead. It's not the boat, it's the skipper! Just because California law ony requires children to wear a PFD, a responsible skipper would make sure that those passengers that coldn't swim would be wearing one too.

As to Scott's bedroom .... I'm not sure we could get his floor to collapse by packing in people. I am certain that I could get the bed frame to collapse if I had ten adults jumping up `n down on top of it. Whose fault would that be?

 

[Indysailor]

From the perspective of a parent with a special needs kid, I suggest it would be safest to have more than one person on the boat who is responsible for the program. You need a skipper and you need someone to attend to the guests.
Kids on the spectrum (mine included) may or may not necessarily react to a situation as you would hope, and in a case like this with just the one sailor on board, it seems terribly irresponsible to even take so many people out in the first place. I say this with a very heavy heart because I am somewhat familiar with this non profit and how much good has come from their work. But so much seems to have gone wrong here.

 

[MSN-Travelers]

In summary, most anything you do to this boat may cause it to capsize? And I wondered how the Mac's got a bad reputation....

Actually, the accident boat is one of the last "sailboats" that MacGregor made. The 26S and 26D (often called 26C for classic) were replaced by much maligned "power sailor" boats (26X & 26M). The 26 S/D models, along with the Venture line before them, are respectable trailer sailors.

It's the 26X & 26M, with their 50+ hp outboards screaming along at 20 kts, that piss off most traditional sailboat owners. They were created to meet the demads of a niche customer base. They are the Winnebago of the sailing industry. Sleeps six friendly people on land or water, has provisions for a porta-potty & galley, easy & fun to single hand, doesn't point worth a damm but will pull the kids on a tube. I know, I had one for a couple years and after a season on Lake Michigan my wife said, "We need a bigger boat!".

This accident is not the boat's fault ... it's the idiot skipper that overloaded the boat thats at fault.

 

[FourPoints]

This accident is not the boat's fault ... it's the idiot skipper that overloaded the boat thats at fault.

If I gave the impression I was blaming the boat I didn't mean to, I fully blame the skipper. Even though the boat may be a poorly designed sailboat that handles bad as a result of design choices meant to try and make a swiss army boat, it doesn't mean the manufacturer is to blame when someone overloades it or uses it in an unsafe manor. If you are not experienced enough to recognise when the boat under your control is unstable or overloaded, you should not be in control.

@Indysailor - I agree there should be more than one experienced person on the boat.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Maybe I can clarify ...

I am not defending the captain or the organization in this instance.

MacGregor can't be defended either. How can a manufacturer be defended for designing a death trap and wrapping their dangerous design in a pathetic disclaimer that limits capacity to just 960 pounds. A 26-foot boat sailboat, that is advertised to feature safety, roominess and performance, can't be capsizing with just 10 people on board while cruising around a harbor. I visited their website and it features a photo that demonstrates stability (claiming that the flat bottom keeps the boat from listing) and a video that portrays sailing in 50 knot winds on the open ocean.

MSN, did you ever have more than 6 people aboard your Macgregor? Just like it is feasible and realistic that 25 people could fit in my bedroom (10 people jumping on the bed is just a silly argument) and my floors have to be designed to accomodate the weight by code, it is not irrational that 10 people might board a Macgregor 26. Sailboats of that size are normally designed to accomodate the weight without capsizing, but Macgregor gets away with designing a boat that is not stable, and then defending themselves by imposing an artificially low capacity limit to protect themselves, even though they advertise all the comfort and safety of their competitors.

You even said that my perspective (of owning a boat with a ballasted keel) leads me to my assumptions about capacity (that the boat should be able to accomodate 12 people). Well, that is my point and FourPoints even acknowledged that it is conceivable that an unsuspecting skipper could be mislead into a dangerous situation. He only changed his opinion after learning that the skipper had previous experience with the boat. My point is that it is entirely conceivable that a responsible person could rationally believe that the boat is stable with 10 people on board when people naturally distribute themselves in a manner that doesn't cause any unusual listing and then get out on the water where people shift around and the boat suddenly goes bottoms up.

I still think Macgregor is irresponsible for their advertising and the reality of their unstable boat with unusually restrictive weight capacity.

 

[MSN-Travelers]

...

MacGregor can't be defended either. How can a manufacturer be defended for designing a death trap and wrapping their dangerous design in a pathetic disclaimer that limits capacity to just 960 pounds. A 26-foot boat sailboat, that is advertised to feature safety, roominess and performance, can't be capsizing with just 10 people on board while cruising around a harbor. I visited their website and it features a photo that demonstrates stability (claiming that the flat bottom keeps the boat from listing) and a video that portrays sailing in 50 knot winds on the open ocean.

MSN, did you ever have more than 6 people aboard your Macgregor? ...

The boat is designed and marketed as a light weight trailorable that can be towed by a mid-sized car. It is designed to be launched at just about any boat ramp you will find in America. The boat has limitation based on its design and anybody that takes people out on the boat should know what those limitations are. MacGregor has tens of thousands of these boats in service and sales are only limited by California's new EPA standards. (ie: they can't build them fast enough to satisfy demand.)

Anybody, in their right mind, that plans on taking passengers out for a sail should know the limitations of their vessels. ALL fatal accidents involving a MacGregor have involved the skipper failing to ensure the ballast tank was full and having too many passengers on the boat, with most of them on deck. All boats are deathtraps if you have an irresponsible idiot for a skipper.

And no, the most I ever had on my Mac was four adults and two children. (1 being an 11 yo grand-nephew with autism.)

....
You even said that my perspective (of owning a boat with a ballasted keel) leads me to my assumptions about capacity (that the boat should be able to accomodate 12 people). Well, that is my point and FourPoints even acknowledged that it is conceivable that an unsuspecting skipper could be mislead into a dangerous situation. He only changed his opinion after learning that the skipper had previous experience with the boat. My point is that it is entirely conceivable that a responsible person could rationally believe that the boat is stable with 10 people on board when people naturally distribute themselves in a manner that doesn't cause any unusual listing and then get out on the water where people shift around and the boat suddenly goes bottoms up.

I still think Macgregor is irresponsible for their advertising and the reality of their unstable boat with unusually restrictive weight capacity.

Your opinion is based on your experience as a keelboat driver. Ask your self ... would I start loading non-sailors on a boat, in the name of a charitable organization, without knowing the limitations and sailing characteristics of the boat I was about to use? He knew, or should have known, that the boat was loaded way beyond it's design limits.

Aside from that, we can only speculate on what else may have been done wrong.
It didn't get knocked down and sink, it went turtle and most Mac owners see this as a sign that the ballast tank was empty.
When righted by the recovery team, the boat didn't sink. This is a testament to the amount of floatation material MacGregor packs in the boats.
In one of the photos I saw of the boat post-recovery, there was damage on the port side below the waterline. I don't know if this occurred after the accident or before. If the skipper had holed the boat and was taking on water, this would explain it going turtle in a gust of wind.

I liked my Mac but I knew it wasn't "safe" for the type of sailing I wanted to do. It made my passengers uncomfortable when out on the "big" lake with winds over 10-15 knts. It is designed for, and best suited for, inland lakes and along protected coastlines. It has been my experience that you can't knock the boat down if you have the ballast filled and keep your people off the deck. It tends to immediately roundup when overpowered.

I believe we will have to agree to disagree. I think the boat design is safe provided it is used as intended and within its design limitations. Would I recommend people buy on for use on big water ... no.

Would I recommend people buy one as a means of getting into sailing for little cost (and even less maintenance) ... yes. But I would (did) also tell then that they will likely move to a conventionally ballasted keel boat after a couple years. My buyer drove up from Texas to take delivery. He & his family drove away with big smiles on their faces and report they are still happy with their purchase.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

I think I'll soften my position ...

because I probably have bored enough people by repeating my point. I suspect that a water-ballasted Macgregor, with the tanks filled, would not have any of the stability issues that we have been arguing about. But still, don't you think that a weight capacity of just 960 pounds is absurdly low for a 26' boat? I do. Don't you agree that their advertising is designed to make you believe that the boat has spacious capacity and stability that measures favorably against any of their fixed-keel competitors? They may be filling a niche for trailer-sailors but they advertise the boat as if it has all the capacity, stability, safety and performance of traditional sail boats. I find that pretty misleading when they have a by-the-way that says don't put more than 6 people in the boat.

 

[Joe]

....... I liked my Mac but I knew it wasn't "safe" for the type of sailing I wanted to do. It made my passengers uncomfortable when out on the "big" lake with winds over 10-15 knts. It is designed for, and best suited for, inland lakes and along protected coastlines. It has been my experience that you can't knock the boat down if you have the ballast filled and keep your people off the deck. It tends to immediately roundup when overpowered....

I think the boat design is safe provided it is used as intended and within its design limitations.... .

Well, if that's not a condemnation I don't know what is... NO... I repeat.. NO sailboat should be uncomfortable in 10-15 knots of wind. How can you ever take the boat out in the water without filling the ballast tank in any condition? Does the manufacturer go beyond a simple disclaimer, such as a detection device or warning siren that goes off if the boat gets wet and the ballast tank is empty?

What's even more absurd is the rationale that 1) the only fatalities have come when there were too many people on deck...implying they should have been below, where they have NO chance to get out of the boat if she capsizes... and 2) the ballast tank was not filled! What does that tell you??? It says... fatalities have repeatedly occured because of a 26 ft boat's special extraordinary limitations and the owner neglecting to fill the ballast tank.

MacGregor should do more that put a disclaimer in the owner's manual... there should be some kind of failsafe device to prevent operator error.

 

[LuzSD]

After all I have read from those of you passionate enough to continue this evaluation, I think it also absurd that a boat with such limitations would be in the arsenal of an outfit that takes trusting non sailors out....... no matter what the location or conditions.

If this were horseback riding we were talking about would it be acceptable if a few of the horses were somewhat easily spooked but overall worked out for most riders? How about rental skis with bindings occasionally reported to have not opened when they should have. ... all fine for an owner who chooses to work with limitations……… but to put trusting novices in harm’s way, unacceptable.

 

[FourPoints]

After all I have read from those of you passionate enough to continue this evaluation, I think it also absurd that a boat with such limitations would be in the arsenal of an outfit that takes trusting non sailors out....... no matter what the location or conditions.

If this were horseback riding we were talking about would it be acceptable if a few of the horses were somewhat easily spooked but overall worked out for most riders? How about rental skis with bindings occasionally reported to have not opened when they should have. ... all fine for an owner who chooses to work with limitations……… but to put trusting novices in harm’s way, unacceptable.

I think this is a very good summary of the issue.

Joe - I agree, continueing to sell these boats without some failsafe warning device is a bad idea. Prior to this incident I, someone who spends a fair amount of time reading and learning about boats, and as much time on my boat as I can, was not aware of the serious design limitations. I would have made the assumption that a 25/26 Mac would be able to safely transport 7-10 people (in calm conditions), and would not have given a second though to having people standing on the gunwale leaning out while hanging onto the shroud for a photo op while motoring around the harbor on a calm afternoon. (I can think of at least one such trip on my boat last year where I had nearly all the bridesmades from a wedding onboard, my girlfriend was one of them. Lets just say bridesmades + sunset sail + dockside bar for post sunset cocktails + moonlight anchorage in the harbor = fantastic skinnydipping memories)

 

[MSN-Travelers]

Re: I think I'll soften my position ...

Scott, ya don't have to repeat your opinion again. I get it. You don't like the manufacturer's advertising claims and you think the load capacity, in weight, is undersized for a boat this size. I understand.

And what I'm telling you is the boat isn't designed & manufactured to meet your expectations. It does meet the needs and expectations of a whole lot of people that want what it offers.

The accident boat was a MacGregor sailboat. The boat they currently build, the one you read about on the web site, is a power-sailor. It's big and roomy and can be equipped to provide just about everything a family of four, new to sailing, could ever want. It is not a racing boat or a log distance cruiser.

If your only complaint with the boat is a limited passenger capacity, then don't buy one.

 

[Joe]

And what I'm telling you is the boat isn't designed & manufactured to meet your expectations. It does meet the needs and expectations of a whole lot of people that want what it offers.

The problem is many of the potential customers for these boats don't understand the danger inherent in the boat's design.... why else would there have been so many similar accidents.

The accident boat was a MacGregor sailboat. The boat they currently build, the one you read about on the web site, is a power-sailor. It's big and roomy and can be equipped to provide just about everything a family of four, new to sailing, could ever want. It is not a racing boat or a log distance cruiser.

Does a 26 ft. boat have to be a racing boat or long distance cruiser for it to safely accommodate 5 or 6 people on deck in calm water?

If your only complaint with the boat is a limited passenger capacity, then don't buy one.

No.. let the inexperienced and careless make that mistake.

 

[Timo42]

As boats go down in size, they get much smaller, my v22-2 will hold 2 people sailing hard, and 4 people day sailing, the most I have ever had on it was 5, and that was crowded, a Mac 26c has only a slightly larger cockpit, it has more room below, but not standing headroom with the poptop down, Caguy's Catalina27 is a much bigger boat, only a foot or so longer, but standing headroom below decks, and a friend's Islander30 is huge, comparitively, we have had 10 people on it without a problem. You can't just look at the length, you have to look at the beam and the displacement. Blaming the mfg is weak, because the boat is what it is, they have been around for many years as cheap entry level boats, and haven't had an issue if the captain does his due dillegence and learns the boat. 20 seconds on the internet could have gotten him the owners manual, there are links to it on this site.
someone mentioned horses, this kind of charity "for the children" is happening there too.
I reprint a rant I posted elsewhere...
"I have seen this same kind of clueless do gooder charity operation at the stable I used to board at, (one of the reasons we left) woman "It's for the children, and you are a bad person if you object" started a "theraputic riding program" associated with some national group. She gets a banner, a wheelchair ramp to load the passengers on the horse, and a couple of Craigslist horses, and she is in business. Not much of a rider herself, she proceeds to give "lessons" to "special needs" people. One of her horses has, to my knowledge, thrown 3 people, including her, and her clients and thier families wander the stable for hours on weekends. Accident waiting to happen. Anybody think it's a good idea to have wheelchairs in muddy stall aisles around horses? Unsupervised small children? People who don't respond normally to danger? Tried talking to the barn owner, who's attitude was she has insurance and pays her bills."

I am sure there are many people in this organisation who's hearts are in the right place, but "what were they thinking". The captain, who is the head of this organisation, should be charged with criminal neglgence in my humble opinion. Blaming it on the wind and the boat, as he appears to be doing is reprehensible.

 

[woodster]

MacGregor should do more that put a disclaimer in the owner's manual... there should be some kind of failsafe device to prevent operator error.

looks like to me its time for MacGregor to put a no water in balest tank alarm as a safty feature along with a capaticy placard.......and maybe even do a recall for the older boats......

then if it is ingnored the captian will be the heavy....jmho.....

regards

woody

 

[Timo42]

looks like to me its time for MacGregor to put a no water in balest tank alarm as a safty feature along with a capaticy placard.......and maybe even do a recall for the older boats......

then if it is ingnored the captian will be the heavy....jmho.....

regards

woody

Maybe MacGregor should station an employee at each launch ramp to inspect boats before they leave...
Personal responsibility, not nanny-state oversight, this was an overloaded boat captained by someone who was looking to maximize profit at the disregard of safety and common sense. Look at the schedule on the website, he was running more trips per day than the harbor tour. No boom, no main sail, two hour turnaround time, calling this a sailing trip is at best false advertising.

 

[KD3PC]

MacGregor has been selling "entry level boats" since the 1970's....

all of this call to have MacGregor do any more than he has already done, is simply ludicrous.

Do you really think a tank alarm would have still been working (look at the close up pictures of the boat on the net, indiana sticker/other state numbers, etc) on a boat like this? Even if it were, someone would have removed the battery (assuming there was one) or duct taped the sonalert.

Personal responsibility and a small degree of common sense is so lacking in everything people do...why not blame the dock master for "letting them shove off".

It was NOT the boat that has the problem, it is the idiot who commands it.

 

[Dave D]

Gee whiz guys. Seems to me like EVERY vehicle has limitations, is it not the responsibility of the operator to be aware of those limitations and to remain within them? By operator in this instance, I refer to both the "skipper" and the owner(s) of the organization. If you were to rent a Jeep in the Islands and take a drive with 10 people hanging off the roll bar and the hood, and killed a few of them going around a mountain switchback at a higher than appropriate speed, who would be to blame? Chrysler? A Mac 26 is not a ferry, it's a SMALL sailboat. Even on my H26 I wouldn't be comfortable with 10 people, as I like to be able to get to what I need to get to, in order to captain my vessel safely. Perhaps Mac should retrofit all of it's vessels with an inflatable tube around the entire hull and an IQ test to unlock the trailer winch cable from the bow.

I still ache for the families of all involved.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Joe said it best ...

"No, let the inexperienced and careless make that mistake" (with regard to purchasing a Macgregor sail boat). It reminds me of the movie "Shipping News" when Quoyle, who has no knowledge of boats and is easily influenced by the seller, buys a boat regardless of the warning from his friends that it is a death trap. After he should have drowned because the boat capsized, his buddy Billy says, "come with me, I'll help you find a proper boat".

I wonder if MSN is telling us the whole story behind his conversion from a Macgregor to a proper sail boat. What incident on dangerous Lake Michigan led to the disposal of the Macgregor, and how about that happy buyer from Texas ... were they fully aware of the limitations of the boat or were they influenced by Macgregors advertising, which promotes spaciousness, safety, comfort and performance on the high seas? Did they look at the boat in the driveway and see a roomy 26 foot boat and think of all the fun they could have with numerous family and friends? Or were they aware that the boat can capsize with just a few more people than capacity (which is just 4 people when the ballast isn't filled provided that the 4 people have to be sitting quietly in the cockpit and they shouldn't be cavorting on the spacious deck)? Were they aware that the capacity of the boat with the ballast filled is a ridiculously low number of 6 (I remember that my flat-bottomed 16' Glastron had a capacity of 6), in comparison to the formula that we are taught in a safe boating course. I'm sure that MSN filled the buyer in on ALL the limitations but how many boats are sold by how many people of various degrees of integrity? ... and you should get my point.

The very fact that this boat was pressed into service by an organization and used to provide a boat ride for unsuspecting and unknowledgable people gives some credence to the position that Macgregor is irresponsible for producing a boat that is deceptively advertised and has a deceptive appearance of safety, when in fact, it shouldn't be used in this manner.

A canoe is unstable ... it looks unstable, feels unstable immediately upon stepping into it, has a widely acknowledged reputation for being unstable, and generally only has enough seats to accomodate its capacity (some canoes don't have any seats). There is no deception involved.

A McGregor certainly has room and seating for far more than its capacity, and is advertised to demonstrate stability and safety (and their advertising shows people standing on the decks, which you are not supposed to do according to their literature). Innocent people were deceived, not just by the captain and the organization (like I said, I'm not defending them), but they were deceived by the appearance and claims of the boat and boat manufacturer, respectively.