Runaway diesel

May 29, 2018
514
Canel 25 foot Shiogama, japan
Ralph has a later model engine where the handcrank has been eliminated.
My guess is that this is for the US market.
Was this engine supplied with a crank handle , Ralph?

gary
 

colemj

.
Jul 13, 2004
220
Dolphin Catamaran Dolphin 460 Mystic, CT
Shouldn't that be "without" ?
No, I don't know of any marine diesel sold in recent years that has a manual decompression lever. All of the engines discussed here that do have them are at least 20yrs old, and decompression levers were rare even then.

I suspect their elimination is two-fold: 1. emissions requirements (using a decompression lever dumps a lot of unburned fuel and causes soot) and 2. many of today's engines require a battery to run, so starting one without a battery wouldn't get it running anyhow.

Our current model Suzuki outboard has a decompression lever where one pulls out the start cord a couple of inches until you feel resistance, and that triggers a lever that pushes on one cylinder's valve and makes pulling the cord to start the engine very easy. But this is all internal and automatic.

Mark
 
Jan 4, 2006
7,062
Hunter 310 West Vancouver, B.C.
Was this engine supplied with a crank handle , Ralph?
No. No crank handle on delivery as a new boat shipped from the Hunter factory in Florida. Mind you, the dealer here in Vancouver was not the most organized outfit you'd ever want to meet and I figured the handle may have been lost in the melee of boat assembly. My other thought was that the end of the cranklever was a hex rod waiting for a female socket to get things turning over by hand. Either way, there was no easy way to ever use the crank fitting without removing the V belt which would put the antifreeze (AF) pump out of operation.

The odd thing is, I've never even removed the cap to see what's under it and that's unusual for me in that I have disassembled most of the engine out of curiosity just to have a look at how it runs. I guess I was so pissed off at the positioning of this crank drive that I figured I could never use it so why look at it.

After knocking around in this hand cranking discussion here, I suppose that if push ever came to shove and I had insufficient battery power to start the engine with the engine unloaded, my next steps would be:

- slack off the V belt to get it out of the way.
- unload the unloaders
- get whatever is required to turn the crank in there
- crank for all I'm worth
- have someone near at hand to close the unlaoders
- hope the engine wouldn't grab my cranking socket wrench and throw it and me across the cabin in a heap.
- observe if the V belt was snug enough to turn the AF pump
- if the AF pump was not turning, shut down the engine

Now for the part that is based purely on prayer ................... I find if I start my engine in the winter and the outside temp. is below 0° C, the engine goes through the usual grunt, groan, and grind for about 5 sec. but it always starts. After it has run for only a few seconds and then been shut down, several hours later after just sitting around it will start after about only 1/2 of one revolution because the piston rings are perfectly sealed with cold, viscous oil from its previous 5 sec. run. In summer months, the engine will start (on 1/2 a rev.) after two days of not running because the rings are still well wetted.

In my further attempt at trying to start this engine with a half dead battery, I would then snug up the V belt and HOPE and PRAY that the weak battery combined with the oil sealed rings MIGHT be enough to get the engine rolling with the unloaders unloaded. That and the strength of prayer.

In theory, who knows, this just might work. In practice, it's absolute bull:poop: for the boat safety of having an engine available when you absolutely need one. The starter battery is treated as sacred once we anchor. It's electrically disconnected from everything ......... as long as we remember. Never even given it a second look in 25 years in some pretty lonely, out of the way locations on our northern coast.

Thanks for posing the question @garymalmgren as it's gotten me thinking about that damned hand crank starting again. I'll rip into it and come up with a workable solution for hand cranking or as a last, feeble, desperate measure, invest in a small battery booster just in case :

1738262634749.png

I've never heard of anyone with too many safety backups.
 
Jan 7, 2011
5,311
Oday 322 East Chicago, IN
No. No crank handle on delivery as a new boat shipped from the Hunter factory in Florida. Mind you, the dealer here in Vancouver was not the most organized outfit you'd ever want to meet and I figured the handle may have been lost in the melee of boat assembly. My other thought was that the end of the cranklever was a hex rod waiting for a female socket to get things turning over by hand. Either way, there was no easy way to ever use the crank fitting without removing the V belt which would put the antifreeze (AF) pump out of operation.

The odd thing is, I've never even removed the cap to see what's under it and that's unusual for me in that I have disassembled most of the engine out of curiosity just to have a look at how it runs. I guess I was so pissed off at the positioning of this crank drive that I figured I could never use it so why look at it.

After knocking around in this hand cranking discussion here, I suppose that if push ever came to shove and I had insufficient battery power to start the engine with the engine unloaded, my next steps would be:

- slack off the V belt to get it out of the way.
- unload the unloaders
- get whatever is required to turn the crank in there
- crank for all I'm worth
- have someone near at hand to close the unlaoders
- hope the engine wouldn't grab my cranking socket wrench and throw it and me across the cabin in a heap.
- observe if the V belt was snug enough to turn the AF pump
- if the AF pump was not turning, shut down the engine
if you open that cap Ralph, let me know what is under there…I have also been curious about hand-cranking this engine (My 1988 also did not come with a hand-crank AFAIK), and it seems that the belt is in the way if the crank socket is under that cap.

I did add a starting battery last year, so hopefully I won’t ever need to hand crank.

Greg
 
Jan 4, 2006
7,062
Hunter 310 West Vancouver, B.C.
I did add a starting battery last year, so hopefully I won’t ever need to hand crank.
I keep my starting battery electrically "untouchable" when at anchor, but if the engine was intended to be hand cranked as a final backup, I want to make bloody sure it can be hand cranked if ever required. And most important of all it's a free backup, if I can get it to work without too many people getting killed or maimed in the process.

I'll photo everything in little pieces and post when we get out of our present deep freeze here (it's almost down to 34° F here at times) and I can work in something less than hypothermia.
 

Attachments

Jan 7, 2011
5,311
Oday 322 East Chicago, IN
I'll photo everything in little pieces and post when we get out of our present deep freeze here (it's almost down to 34° F here at times) and I can work in something less than hypothermia.
Bummer:cool:

We are out of our “deep freeze” and are back to beautiful weather in SW Florida…
IMG_3954.jpeg


Greg
 

colemj

.
Jul 13, 2004
220
Dolphin Catamaran Dolphin 460 Mystic, CT
The odd thing is, I've never even removed the cap to see what's under it
How does the cap come off? It doesn't look like there are bolts in those holes. Is it just held on with sealant?

Since you have decompression levers, and the arrow in your picture shows the crankshaft turns clockwise, couldn't you just chuck a socket in a drill, open the decompression levers, and spin the crankshaft with the drill?

Mark
 
Dec 28, 2015
1,892
Laser, Hunter H30 Cherubini Tacoma
Unless your engine has a turbocharger, you shouldn't have to worry about it.
The turbocharger is burning the oil.
The turbocharger looses its bearing or bearing seal on the compressor side and injects crank oil into the intake causing the condition. When this happens it rapidly increases RPMs to the associated amount of oil being injected. More oil, higher RPM. The idea of plugging the air intake is really your only option....how to get it done safely is the question. You have no idea when the engine is going to fail potentially causing projectiles that havethe ability to cause alot of injury. I wouln't not want to approach these situations. Your best option is a CO2 extinguisher directly into the intake. I'd have to remove my air filter cover to be able to cover the intake with a solid object that would force me to lean up against the engine......not going to happen in a situation like this. I don't have a turbocharged engine so the only real potential on my well maintained engine would be a broken rings or burnt valves allowing the crankcase to pressurize forcing oil through the crank breather into the intake, not causing the dramatic condition of a true runaway you see with turbo chargers.
 
Dec 28, 2015
1,892
Laser, Hunter H30 Cherubini Tacoma
I can't remember ever hearing of a well maintained sailboat's engine exploding or even having a runaway. Most times they are industrial engines that run long hours, such as generators or pumps.
Some of the older small diesels were prone to running away, but they were worked very hard for a considerable amount of time. Several boats I've worked on had runaway shut downs, especially the 6-71 series GM diesels.
I do know exactly what you were thinking about going into an engine room emergency, as you mentioned. It wasn't a runaway, but a fire in the engine room below the cockpit.
Alone on night watch, I was at the helm of the 65' ketch Alert. We were about half way to Hawaii, when flames became visible through the engine room port holes, under the cockpit seats.
The only access was a hatch in the port forward corner of the cockpit seat, the straight down a ladder about 6'. Calling for help and letting the fire burn another few minutes just wasn't an option, so I called for the crew and jumped into the engine room. Sorry, there's not much of a story after that, as it was an electrical fire. All I had to do was flip a few switches and shut down the genset. It only took me a couple of days to get it all sorted out and everything back up and running. I'd certainly rather have been eating lunch in Windsor, Ontario, that night!
Another place you see it fairly often is locomotives. Google search locomotive fire and if you see a blow torch shooting out the top of the locomotive it is due to a TC failure. Alot of times they will just continue to run it until they get to a place were they have access for repair.
1738335884258.png
 
Jan 4, 2006
7,062
Hunter 310 West Vancouver, B.C.
How does the cap come off?
Held on with small machine screws as I SEEM to remember :

1738342058615.png

I THINK the top screw is hidden behind the V belt and it's only the formed sheet metal cap that comes off.

Now you've got me worried. But let me tell you this ......... IT'S COMING OFF OR ELSE !

Since you have decompression levers, and the arrow in your picture shows the crankshaft turns clockwise, couldn't you just chuck a socket in a drill, open the decompression levers, and spin the crankshaft with the drill?
It may come down to that yet. Great big 1 HP drill and a large socket over the nut in the middle of the crankshaft pulley.

Damn, who was using the drill last and forgot to charge it ? Hey you, with the ears, you're rowing us out of here !
 
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Nov 22, 2011
1,242
Ericson 26-2 San Pedro, CA
How does the cap come off? It doesn't look like there are bolts in those holes. Is it just held on with sealant?

Since you have decompression levers, and the arrow in your picture shows the crankshaft turns clockwise, couldn't you just chuck a socket in a drill, open the decompression levers, and spin the crankshaft with the drill?

Mark
And if/when the engine fires off, then what? Sounds pretty dangerous.
The crank for my Yanmar 1GM--which, as I say, I've never gotten to work--is set up such that is *should* easily pop right off if the engine starts up. Even that one makes me a bit nervous.
 

dLj

.
Mar 23, 2017
3,940
Belliure 41 Back in the Chesapeake
And if/when the engine fires off, then what? Sounds pretty dangerous.
The crank for my Yanmar 1GM--which, as I say, I've never gotten to work--is set up such that is *should* easily pop right off if the engine starts up. Even that one makes me a bit nervous.
No problem if the engine fires off. The crank just disconnects and you are off and running. The problem is if you get a "backfire" - that's the infamous "wrist breaker". I grew up hand crank starting tractors, old cars and old airplanes. Those were all gasoline engines and the risk of a backfire was much greater than in diesel engines. With diesels, I've had not enough forward motion and the compression pushes the piston backwards. Not quite as violent as a gasoline engine backfiring, but still no fun...

dj
 
Nov 22, 2011
1,242
Ericson 26-2 San Pedro, CA
No problem if the engine fires off. The crank just disconnects and you are off and running.
Even with the socket on the crankshaft with an electric drill approach? That's the one that seems particularly ill advised, unless I'm mistaken.
 

dLj

.
Mar 23, 2017
3,940
Belliure 41 Back in the Chesapeake
Even with the socket on the crankshaft with an electric drill approach? That's the one that seems particularly ill advised, unless I'm mistaken.
Ah, agreed. I would not do that. Apologies, didn't realize you were addressing that part...

It wasn't my recommendation.

You need a properly designed connection....

dj