What kind of propane regulator to use?

[American_Mainsail]

Sorry to hear you're pulling your hair out on this one, Rich. It is wild that you have a leak in both the old regulator and in the gas line itself outside of the propane box.

Did a PO put in additional fittings? Maybe you know this already: the only fittings allowed by ABYC outside the propane locker are the connections to the appliance itself, in order to try to minimize potential leaks. Are fittings sealed with yellow teflon tape? Maybe a hose is chafing on a bulkhead, or maybe a sharp corner of the stove is chafing it as the stove swings back and forth on its gimbal?

A soapy water solution applied through a spray bottle is really helpful for finding leaks.

Regardless, it sounds like you a have a handle on it. It looks like you will be to the bottom of the issue soon. Hopefully it's just a fitting that's loose or just needs to be resealed with teflon tape.

Keep us posted - I'm looking forward to hearing what the resolution to the issue is.

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

Regarding the new regulator that I have purchased, I performed a water column test per @Ralph Johnstone in post #11.

That's just too fancy a setup you've got there.

The results varied a bit on multiple tests, and so did the temperature of the tanks vary during testing.

Much of the reason for most of that almost 2" error is the attraction of the water to the vinyl tubing, almost like friction. I should have mentioned to add a drop of liquid dish washing soap to smooth things out. As you say, the new reg. is set to 11".
Tank temp. wouldn't change the reg. output pressure as you've showed with your test of both the 10 PSI input (throttled tank valve ?) and 145 PSI input to the reg. producing the same output.

The next leak test I did was with the stove burners and oven shut off, but with the solenoid valve turn on. At this point, the input pressure gauge read 0 psi,

Now I'm lost ........... how can the input pressure to the reg. be 0 PSI (am I right here ?) if your propane tank is full. Did you have the tank shut off valve closed ?

the input pressure gauge read 0 psi, and my propane alarm inside the salon went off. This indicates a propane leak that is inside the boat.

Just because the tank showed empty because the valve showed 0 PSI, why does the propane alarm sound off. What is its sensor looking at to tell you there is a leak. inside the boat. I thought those things worked on a propane sniffer. But what do I know ? My propane system has no safety sensors. Just light a match and hope for the best each time.

I am confused as to why the input pressure gauge read 0 psi,

You're confused. How do you think the rest of us feel ?
It sounds as if the system initially had pressure to the reg. and then it went empty. Any chance you were venting large amounts of gas and the tank is now empty ? Or as I had previously mentioned, did you vent all of the gas overboard ? Is your supply the 1# tank or your 10# tank.

I am going to see if it also reads 0 psi if I disconnect the hose to the solenoid valve and let it vent to the atmosphere. Maybe this will give me a clue as to what is happening.

May I suggest you remove the reg. from the investigation and leave it where it is and just take off the pressure gauge AFTER you have ensured the tank valve is closed ? Crack open the tank valve and if there is any pressure in the tank, you will hear it, feel it, and smell it immediately, indicating the gauge is kaput ! OR, maybe the valve is stuck in the closed position e. Remember to tape and replace the pressure gauge when finished.

Now I seem to have leak somewhere in the salon near or in the stove.

Once again, may I suggest a simple bleed down test once you get things straightened out back at the tank and a guaranteed supply of gas at 11".

- Open all cabin openings (hatches, ports, etc.) in case there is a great bloody line leak which could prove embarrassing.
- Ensure all burners are shut off.
- Open the gas valve at the tank.
- Open the solenoid valve.
- Shut off the tank valve tightly.
- Watch the pressure gauge over the next few hours or overnight if you're OCD like myself.
- Any pressure drop indicates a leak downstream of the tank shut off valve.
- If you have a leak, your nose is probably the best detector.
- If you have no sense of smell, a squeeze bottle with a few drops of soap detergent is your next best opetion.

This is day four of dealing with this problem, and I have found that the most difficult problems are those where there are multiple failures.

Just saw your update edit :

The input pressure read 0 psi and I could feel a slight supply of gas from the end of the hose.

Maybe problem here :

Yes, an 11" reg. output of propane is about as strong as a fart on a quiet night. HOWEVER, if the tank valve was wide open, the gauge must show full tank pressure at all times. It has a huge supply capacity due to its high pressure. If not, something is not right in the tank valve.

If I put my finger over the end of the hose, the flow decreased and the input pressure gauge increased to about 100 psi.

This means the tank valve was only pertly open or the tank valve is partially plugged.

I will now wait to get my air compressor and I'll pressurize the system and try to locate the leak inside of the boat.

See the bleed down test above. Faster and simpler.

I find this problem most interesting because it's NOT on my boat. On my boat it'd be a whole 'nuther problem.

Let us know what you find.

 

[Tally Ho]

[QUOTE="Rich Stidger, post:
The input pressure read 0 psi and I could feel a slight supply of gas from the end of the hose. If I put my finger over the end of the hose, the flow decreased and the input pressure gauge increased to about 100 psi.
[/QUOTE]

Rich,

I notice in this photo that you upgraded to a hand-tighten connection to the tank.


Does that black fitting happen to have a check valve in it?

My propane setup uses a short hose between the tank and my gauge and regulator, and when I replaced my tank the last time, I cranked open the gas valve and found no pressure on my gauge. It turns out my hose has a check valve built in…and too much gas flowing through to “fill the system” caused the little ball to check and close off the propane flow. I had to close the valve on the tank, remove the hose fitting and blow the ball back into the open position, and then s-l-o-w-l-y open the valve.

Greg

 

[Rich Stidger]

@Ralph Johnstone - I'll try to answer your questions clearly-
Did a PO put in additional fittings? No, I am the original owner. Nothing has been added to the propane system.
Are fittings sealed with yellow teflon tape? Maybe a hose is chafing on a bulkhead, or maybe a sharp corner of the stove is chafing it as the stove swings back and forth on its gimbal? All pipe fittings are sealed with WHITE teflon tape. I have never seen yellow teflon tape. The only connections that are not sealed with teflon are the flare fittings which do not use any sealant. But a leak down test within the propane compartment passes. And checks with a soap solution show no leaks. Chafing is an issue not yet addressed.
Tank temp. wouldn't change the reg. output pressure as you've showed with your test of both the 10 PSI input (throttled tank valve ?) and 145 PSI input to the reg. producing the same output. You are correct; the regulator output should remain nearly constant with varying input pressures due to tank temperature differences. The 10 psi input was with a nearly empty 1# tank, not a throttled valve.
Now I'm lost ........... how can the input pressure to the reg. be 0 PSI (am I right here ?) if your propane tank is full. Did you have the tank shut off valve closed ? No, I opened the tank valve to pressurize the entire system including the stove so that I could do a complete leak test. The 10# tank has 8# of propane by weight, so it is not empty.
Just because the tank showed empty because the valve showed 0 PSI, why does the propane alarm sound off. What is its sensor looking at to tell you there is a leak. inside the boat. I thought those things worked on a propane sniffer. Yes, my propane alarm has a sniffer sensor under the stove. And the alarm went off due to propane inside the boat.

Yes, an 11" reg. output of propane is about as strong as a fart on a quiet night. HOWEVER, if the tank valve was wide open, the gauge must show full tank pressure at all times. It has a huge supply capacity due to its high pressure. If not, something is not right in the tank valve. OK, I took the 10# boat tank out of the loop and connected a 1# tank. I got exactly the same results- 0 psi reading on the gauge with the output hose disconnected and if I closed the end of the hose with my finger the input pressure gauge went up to 100 psi. So that would seem to eliminate any problem with the 10# tank.

I got my air compressor and tomorrow I will pressurize the system at the input to the regulator and look for leaks. Maybe that will give me some clue.

 

[Rich Stidger]

227119[/ATTACH]

Does that black fitting happen to have a check valve in it?

My propane setup uses a short hose between the tank and my gauge and regulator, and when I replaced my tank the last time, I cranked open the gas valve and found no pressure on my gauge. It turns out my hose has a check valve built in…and too much gas flowing through to “fill the system” caused the little ball to check and close off the propane flow. I had to close the valve on the tank, remove the hose fitting and blow the ball back into the open position, and then s-l-o-w-l-y open the valve.

Greg

Good idea @Tally Ho . Yes the black QCC tank connector has some kind of check valve in it. But I believe that the check valve stops gas that is in the system down-stream from leaking out when a tank is changed. But maybe it works both ways and will also stop excessive gas flow. I have read where some regulators have a device to stop excessive flow. The specs on the new regulator that I have do not mention this feature- So I'm guessing that it is not present on this regulator. But it might be in the QCC connector itself. I will check with the company that manufactured it.
And I will open the valve slowly to see if that makes a difference.
Thanks for the idea.

 

[Tally Ho]

But I believe that the check valve stops gas that is in the system down-stream from leaking out when a tank is changed.

I think the check valve is to stop the tank from emptying all of the propane should there be a “blow out” somewhere down stream from the tank.

Greg

 

[Leeward Rail]

This means the tank valve was only pertly open or the tank valve is partially plugged.

turns out my hose has a check valve built in…and too much gas flowing through to “fill the system” caused the little ball to check and close off the propane flow.

A check valve is common now. In the old days if you opened the valve quickly it would work fine. Same if the hose failed.

Safety worries now have the gas flow stopped if the hose fails or even quickly goes from low to max flow.

Many BBQ Tanks now have it built in. I learned the hard way when using a tiger torch which doesn't have a regulator. I have to open the valve slowly otherwise the check valve in the tank valve would block flow because it "thought" the hose had failed.

I don't have empirical data, but i feel that some of the check valves are more sensitive than others due to quality control.

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

@Rich Stidger , thanks for answering my questions and clarifying reams of collected data. I've gleaned a little more of what may be happening.

Yes, I believe something (hose? range fitting?) has let go in the boat cabin. As you pointed out, the propane alarm sounded because it sensed propane in the cabin, NOT because the tank went to 0 PSI or whatever else transpired out there.

Your compressor may be the best way to go to find the leak in the cabin but I'm a little worried if the hose let go without a really good reason. That stuff is tougher than hell. Is it past its "best before date" ? Beat the crap out of a section of it to see if it shows any signs of stress. If it is showing it's age, just open up your wallet and ............... aw, what the hell, just throw your whole wallet at the counter man and he'll know what to do.

I've got nothing more to add for the tank output. As I said, the gauge must show full pressure at all times when the tank valve is open or something is interfering with the flow. And your gauge drops off with a very small flow. Try removing the gauge and open the tank valve slowly. It should roar like NOX fuelled dragster. If not, I think Greg is on the right track with a flow limiter that is faulty.

Let us know what happens tomorrow.

 

[sailme88]

Interesting advise and attachments...

NOW, contact the manufacturer of your appliance ( stove/oven) and get required regulator information. They may also be a source for the regulator. It all comes down to what the appliance is built to function with for a PSI.

 

[Rich Stidger]

@Tally Ho and @Ralph Johnstone -
So I know that there is "something" in the QCC connector, and I believed that it was just a back-flow preventer for when the tank is disconnected. However, the manufacturer had additional info as follows:

"The Marshall Excelsior (Model ME517) 1-5/16" Female Acme x 1/4" MNPT Quick Closing Coupling Connector - Black is a Type 1 connector that has a built in excess flow feature and a positive shutoff that will not allow gas to flow until the connector is fully engaged. In case of a fire, the built-in thermal protection melts allowing the nipple to disengage from the tank connection and stop the flow of propane. These QCC connectors also provide a positive back check seal at disconnect to eliminate the propane in the hose from being released into the atmosphere."

So this "excess flow" check feature is likely the explanation of a 0 psi reading on my gauge when I opened the tank valve. But in order for this excess flow check to be activated, it requires an inrush of gas to the system. That, coupled with the propane alarm inside the cabin still suggests some kind of leak inside.

More later after getting some coffee and breakfast and testing with my compressor.

 

[Rich Stidger]

Interesting advise and attachments...

NOW, contact the manufacturer of your appliance ( stove/oven) and get required regulator information. They may also be a source for the regulator. It all comes down to what the appliance is built to function with for a PSI.

I tried that, but the phone number for Seaward that I have and also see on the web no longer works. Maybe Seaward has been bought out by someone else, but if that is true, I don't have that info.

 

[Tally Ho]

@Tally Ho and @Ralph Johnstone -
So I know that there is "something" in the QCC connector, and I believed that it was just a back-flow preventer for when the tank is disconnected. However, the manufacturer had additional info as follows:

"The Marshall Excelsior (Model ME517) 1-5/16" Female Acme x 1/4" MNPT Quick Closing Coupling Connector - Black is a Type 1 connector that has a built in excess flow feature and a positive shutoff that will not allow gas to flow until the connector is fully engaged. In case of a fire, the built-in thermal protection melts allowing the nipple to disengage from the tank connection and stop the flow of propane. These QCC connectors also provide a positive back check seal at disconnect to eliminate the propane in the hose from being released into the atmosphere."

So this "excess flow" check feature is likely the explanation of a 0 psi reading on my gauge when I opened the tank valve. But in order for this excess flow check to be activated, it requires an inrush of gas to the system. That, coupled with the propane alarm inside the cabin still suggests some kind of leak inside.

More later after getting some coffee and breakfast and testing with my compressor.

As I mentioned, my connector is green and has a hose attached (essentially a 12” pigtail with the tank connector). And mine is a cheap Amazon chinese part.

Mine checked off with no leak in the system….just the quick turn on of the valve. This was quite a frustrating experience trying to ascertain what was not working. Add to that the prospect of blowing up….

Your idea of using compressed air to find the leak is a good idea. Anxious to hear what you find.


Greg

 

[American_Mainsail]

@Tally Ho and @Ralph Johnstone -
So I know that there is "something" in the QCC connector, and I believed that it was just a back-flow preventer for when the tank is disconnected. However, the manufacturer had additional info as follows:

"The Marshall Excelsior (Model ME517) 1-5/16" Female Acme x 1/4" MNPT Quick Closing Coupling Connector - Black is a Type 1 connector that has a built in excess flow feature and a positive shutoff that will not allow gas to flow until the connector is fully engaged. In case of a fire, the built-in thermal protection melts allowing the nipple to disengage from the tank connection and stop the flow of propane. These QCC connectors also provide a positive back check seal at disconnect to eliminate the propane in the hose from being released into the atmosphere."

So this "excess flow" check feature is likely the explanation of a 0 psi reading on my gauge when I opened the tank valve. But in order for this excess flow check to be activated, it requires an inrush of gas to the system. That, coupled with the propane alarm inside the cabin still suggests some kind of leak inside.

More later after getting some coffee and breakfast and testing with my compressor.

Hi Ralph,

Good luck with the project today. Not to load you up with more tasks, but I'm wondering if you couldn't snap a quick picture of this connector, and maybe one of the broader layout inside the propane box. I'm having a hard time visualizing where that connector lies in the system.

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

But in order for this excess flow check to be activated, it requires an inrush of gas to the system.

Just an observation here but you've already had a blown wide open, failed hose simulation when you ran the reg. wide open to atmosphere

I disconnected the hose after the regulator that connects to the solenoid valve, and directing this hose overboard, I opened the valve on the propane tank. The input pressure read 0 psi and I could feel a slight supply of gas from the end of the hose. If I put my finger over the end of the hose, the flow decreased and the input pressure gauge increased to about 100 psi.

I guess what I'm ruminating in my mind here is somehow you've REALLY activated the excess flow mechanism now and HOW the hell does one reset it ? Or do you throw it away every time you have an excess flow situation ?

So, here we have another device which has been "safetied up" to the point you don't get any propane delivery at all. Yes, it's now more than 100% safe. However, I'll take my bare bones propane setup with no safeties where every time I light up the burners, I cross myself, say a little prayer, hope for the best, and throw a match at it. C'mon, what could go wrong ?

 

[Rich Stidger]

Hi Ralph,

Good luck with the project today. Not to load you up with more tasks, but I'm wondering if you couldn't snap a quick picture of this connector, and maybe one of the broader layout inside the propane box. I'm having a hard time visualizing where that connector lies in the system.

@American_Mainsail - Here you go with the pix you requested.

 

[Rich Stidger]

Just an observation here but you've already had a blown wide open, failed hose simulation when you ran the reg. wide open to atmosphere
I guess what I'm ruminating in my mind here is somehow you've REALLY activated the excess flow mechanism now and HOW the hell does one reset it ? Or do you throw it away every time you have an excess flow situation ?

Yes, when I opened the tank valve with the delivery hose disconnected, it did activate the excess flow check and the pressure gauge went to 0 psi. At the same time there was just barely a wisp of propane coming out of the hose end. After covering the end of the hose, the excess flow check RESET and the pressure climbed back to 100psi. Easing off on the end of the hose, the pressure dropped a bit and the gas flow noticeably increased from the end of the hose. So it is an automatic reset after the pressure equalizes on both sides of the QCC connector.

Read below of the latest summary of faults found.

 

[Rich Stidger]

UPDATE ON THE PROPANE DEBACLE:
I re-assembled the system with the new regulator, gauge, and the QCC with safety checks. I did a leak-down test in the propane compartment with the solenoid valve closed - PASSED.
I then had my wife turn on the solenoid valve briefly while I watched the input pressure gauge in the propane compartment. It held at 100psi. The solenoid valve was then turned off.
Then, at the stove, I checked all three burner controls to be sure that they were off. They were. Then I checked the oven control and discovered that the knob could not be depressed or turned. This means that the oven control has failed. I then had my wife turn on the solenoid valve while I sniffed around the oven control. I detected propane gas and I heard a quiet hiss.

So now I have a failed oven control that is leaking. This oven control leak explains why my propane sniffer alarmed, and also explains why when I lit one of the top burners, the leak from the oven control ignited and shot flames out of the cook top.

This oven control replaced the original oven control back in 2006. It has always been stiff to operate since new, but now it simply is frozen and leaking.

Now I am off to find a replacement for this oven control. The Seaward part number for the control kit is #80424 and that kit contains #74498 thermostat, a new temperature face plate, and connecting hardware. I have no working phone numbers for Seaward, so I am hoping to find the correct part somewhere.

ANY IDEAS ON A SOURCE WOULD BE VERY MUCH APPRECIATED!

So the bottom line is that I had TWO failures- a leaking regulator (that is probably why I lost 2# of gas overnight- the excess flow check kicked in and reduced the flow to a whisper), and a leaking oven control. All of this was complicated by not understanding the features of the QCC tank adapter.

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

Good luck with locating the replacement part for the oven control.

Now, there's the small matter of Greg's and my bill for services rendered in resolving this life and mind altering problem :

- travelling time
- mileage costs
- lunch break during travelling time
- rest break during lunch break
- assorted and estimated (wildly) extras

Thank you for choosing our service. Please expect to find our invoice in the mail.

 

[Rich Stidger]

Thank you for choosing our service. Please expect to find our invoice in the mail.

No problem, I sincerely appreciate all of the help and ideas from everyone.

Regarding your invoice.... I am retired and my standard labor rate for friends and relatives is 18 cents per hour. Since I would expect your rates to be similar, maybe the invoice wouldn't be worth the cost of a stamp.....

Now back to my parts search. This doesn't look promising so far.

 

[JoeWhite]

May be a new oven is due.