Navigational Buoys Used as Racing Marks
- Thread starter jviss
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I once had a similar incident entering Newport Harbor. It's a busy place and you can have real ocean swells with an afternoon wind chop superimposed on the swells. Add to that a lot of traffic and a fleet of YNG's racing out of the harbor, some. AC 12's circling around and you could have a pucker situation. Did I mention the car carriers coming down the bay?
As RC I often specified government buoys as marks as did all of the local clubs. I wouldn't pick a buoy which was adjacent to un-navigatable water - for the reason that you don't want parts of the fleet to ground there. I would always use buoys that had at least 50 yards of water before the shallow water as is often the case.
We would submit our races to the USCG to be published in the LNM for that week. Recreational boaters generally don't look at that publication but we thought it would give us (Our insurance company) a bit of an edge if there was a claim. We did have occasional stare downs with fishermen but when they see twenty sailboats heading at them they would usually leave. I would communicate with them if possible, being nice, and can't remember a problem.
As RC I often specified government buoys as marks as did all of the local clubs. I wouldn't pick a buoy which was adjacent to un-navigatable water - for the reason that you don't want parts of the fleet to ground there. I would always use buoys that had at least 50 yards of water before the shallow water as is often the case.
We would submit our races to the USCG to be published in the LNM for that week. Recreational boaters generally don't look at that publication but we thought it would give us (Our insurance company) a bit of an edge if there was a claim. We did have occasional stare downs with fishermen but when they see twenty sailboats heading at them they would usually leave. I would communicate with them if possible, being nice, and can't remember a problem.
Thanks you, I'm glad you appreciate it. Traffic in the bay was not an issue at this time, though there was a 675' freighter coming south when I got there. But not an issue. It was just that this fleet came up so suddenly, right across the harbor entrance, that it was startling and dangerous, in my experience.
By the way, I've been here dozens of times, and this has never happened to me before.
Navionics puts it at 0.3 miles between the buoys. If I were a race committee I would probably not hesitate to use buoys at that spacing. The fact that these are sport boats going 20+ knots does complicate things though, and like you said “you probably just had to be there.” I’m sure it’s no consolation but the racers are probably used to much closer passes than you and probably didn’t think you were too close.
I’ve also heard that rumor but I’ve never seen it codified anywhere. If nothing else it’s not a regulation that’s enforced to any significant extent. The Chesapeake Bay Yacht Racing Association publishes all of the marks that it uses for every race on the bay at CBYRA RACING MARKS. Almost all of them are government ATONs, and they’re not some little beer can racing club.
I'm glad no harm was done to you or anyone else.
It IS a rumor, and as I mentioned earlier, your interactive association with a gaggle of fast moving boats could well have happened anywhere on the water.
In my decade + of racing on SF Bay, we always used nav markers. This had been worked out between the yacht and club racing associations and the govt authorities having jurisdiction ever since they put those steel buoys in place, a long, long time ago. They weren't ATONs either, hard steel thingies! And yes, they do go BUMP.
Please consider your question answered (at least for SF Bay).
The OP was not constrained by draft. That's not just him, but many or most larger sailboats traveling from marker to marker. The approach to my harbor is in someways similar, and I've had boats make that claim when they had 500-1000 feet of water on either side. They get tunnel vision regarding their course. As boaters we also forget that we can slow down, like we would in a car. There is always reverse; firmly applied, even heavy yachts can stop rather quickly. It's surprisingly easy to forget these things. But let's move on.
In this case a large number of targets approached at the same time. Given the distances and probable speed, I can see that this situation could have evolved in not much more than a minute. The racing boats are likely not running straight lines. I can see how a cruising boat's pilot could could suddenly find himself saturated. Even if the OP sees the situation and starts to avoid, short of doing a U-turn early, he could get in a situation where his options disappear. The racers could have seen this was occurring, which would give them a duty to avoid (rule 17b. When, for any cause, the the vessel required ...).
The pilot should know that races are allowed to be set around ATNs and that racing is not mentioned in COLREGS.
Racers commonly try to draw fouls, or at least impede others through application of the rules. This is not part of the game for vessels not involved in the race, and the race and the racers did much to create the situation (rule 2). I would argue that the OP should have slowed early and probably set a course farther towards the center to give more room around the mark, but once the situation evolved and if a collision occurred, I wouldn't be surprised in the judge gave some responsibility to the racers for not acting in a seaman like manner and creating the conditions for a collision; rule 2 would, in some measure, seem to apply. The race contributed to the situation and racers should be wary of this sort of evolution.
But yes, this is just part of sailing, like watching out for squalls on the horizon.
In this case a large number of targets approached at the same time. Given the distances and probable speed, I can see that this situation could have evolved in not much more than a minute. The racing boats are likely not running straight lines. I can see how a cruising boat's pilot could could suddenly find himself saturated. Even if the OP sees the situation and starts to avoid, short of doing a U-turn early, he could get in a situation where his options disappear. The racers could have seen this was occurring, which would give them a duty to avoid (rule 17b. When, for any cause, the the vessel required ...).
The pilot should know that races are allowed to be set around ATNs and that racing is not mentioned in COLREGS.
Racers commonly try to draw fouls, or at least impede others through application of the rules. This is not part of the game for vessels not involved in the race, and the race and the racers did much to create the situation (rule 2). I would argue that the OP should have slowed early and probably set a course farther towards the center to give more room around the mark, but once the situation evolved and if a collision occurred, I wouldn't be surprised in the judge gave some responsibility to the racers for not acting in a seaman like manner and creating the conditions for a collision; rule 2 would, in some measure, seem to apply. The race contributed to the situation and racers should be wary of this sort of evolution.
But yes, this is just part of sailing, like watching out for squalls on the horizon.
From a racer's point of view, this is an interesting situation. It's been a few years since I actively participated in racing, so I may be a little off on my analysis.
If a boat is motoring through the race course, then the boat under power is the give way vessel and the usual rules apply. However, if the vessel is stopped and no longer under power, the vessel becomes an obstacle on the course. Somewhere in the rules I recall, the racers must give room to other boats when there is an obstacle. We used to run into this when one of the starting marks was on a wharf and the other a ball or buoy.
In this situation, coming to a dead stop and becoming an obstacle might have been preferable to trying to motor through the fleet. Or better yet, turn around in the safest direction possible and get off the course for a few minutes while all the boats passed by. What would it take, maybe 3 or 4 minutes?
Trying to motor through the course was probably the worst option, all it did was create a difficult situation and make people angry. I assure you, if you were in the middle of the course, there were unkind words being spoken by the racing crews.
Sounds correct to me.
I've raced and I've cruised, and the "ethics" get furry.
As a racer, why couldn't the cruiser stay clear for just a few minutes and avoid the confusion? We'll only be here for a few minutes and this is how we enjoy the water. Similarly, I always avoid a crab or lobster boat working pots; he is not technically involved in fishing when moving between pots, but he is earning a living and it would be rude to impede his work. "Never stop a working man" is one of life's most important maxims. As a cruiser or day sailor, I am by definition not really in a hurry.
As a cruiser, I stay clear of a racing fleet when I can, but if the fleet is strung out I might not. In my home venue, with a mix of fast and slow classes, the fleet can stretch out across miles of bay. If sailing with a chute up complete avoidance might not be possible without dropping the chute, which is too big an ask. I always try to locate the turning mark so that I can avoid making a crowded situation worse, and I make some effort to avoid every racer, whether sailing or motoring. I don't even want to steal their wind. I know they're having fun, and that's good. But many cruisers instinctively look at racers a bit like boats that are overtaking; by the nature of their activity they should cede right of way to non-racers, just as I cede right of way to working men, whether required or not. I see it that way too sometimes.
It goes back to Rule 2: very roughly paraphrased, no one has the right to make a hazard or a nuisance of himself. Both cruisers and racers would do well to remember that they are all just playing and that neither activity is more important than the other, or in fact, important at all.
All that said, COLREGS is about predictability, not politeness. Make any changes early and obvious.
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The obstacle comment was interesting. I once unknowingly anchored in what became a kids' race course in the morning. I couldn't move, so I just watched the action over lunch. If a real knot of boats crosses a slow moving power boat (motoring sail yacht in this case), when is it better to treat the power boat as a slow moving obstacle, and how would you communicate that? It might be better AND SAFER for all involved than to have a boat that will make multiple maneuvers that will be difficult to predict. But this does not fit within COLREGS. In practice, this is how it works with large ships in some places, and in practice, it does not always work well.
Racing in Cowes
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We were once headed into a yacht club for the evening on the last day of Opti classes. As we approached the Club there was a swarm of Optis, either racing or sailing or playing bumper boats. Rather than trying to enter the marina, we just stopped and enjoyed the show. After a few minutes a hole opened up in the fleet and we calmly motored through. It was a nice end to a day.
And just yesterday, we were backing down a narrow channel with a cross wind from the fuel dock because the channel is too narrow to turn around in, onside is a wharf and floating dock the other side a 2 ft deep shoal. As we were leaving the fuel dock the 420s were coming out to race, it must of been a big deal as there were photographers around. As were about to finish backing out of the channel, a 420 came flying by from behind a docked boat. There were a few tense moments as I got my boat stopped and the young 420 crew suddenly realized it's important to look to the leeward side behind the jib. No harsh words just some surprised looks and a few skipped heart beats and they sailed off to the course and we managed to turn around and get out of there.
And just yesterday, we were backing down a narrow channel with a cross wind from the fuel dock because the channel is too narrow to turn around in, onside is a wharf and floating dock the other side a 2 ft deep shoal. As we were leaving the fuel dock the 420s were coming out to race, it must of been a big deal as there were photographers around. As were about to finish backing out of the channel, a 420 came flying by from behind a docked boat. There were a few tense moments as I got my boat stopped and the young 420 crew suddenly realized it's important to look to the leeward side behind the jib. No harsh words just some surprised looks and a few skipped heart beats and they sailed off to the course and we managed to turn around and get out of there.
I've had to miss swarms of racing sailboats numerous times over the years. I generally just stay out of their way. I used to race, it's a real pain dealing with some random boat getting in the way on the course. Now as a cruiser, I try to never be on a schedule and if it takes me an hour more to get somewhere, - oh well - so be it. I've never been in a situation where I was suddenly "swarmed" with racing boats....
I think the real question here is - given the circumstances that running under motor on your sailboat and you get swarmed with a bunch of fast moving racers - what's the best tactic? Come to a complete stop and let them get around you? Bob and weave and try not to hit anyone?
For that matter, what if you are under sail?
If @jviss had started this thread asking if there was a better way to have handled this situation rather than starting it as a complaint, I think we would have gotten to the bottom of that question easier.
dj
I think the real question here is - given the circumstances that running under motor on your sailboat and you get swarmed with a bunch of fast moving racers - what's the best tactic? Come to a complete stop and let them get around you? Bob and weave and try not to hit anyone?
For that matter, what if you are under sail?
If @jviss had started this thread asking if there was a better way to have handled this situation rather than starting it as a complaint, I think we would have gotten to the bottom of that question easier.
dj
I went back to read the original post, because I didn't remember it as a complaint, but rather as a question of whether buoys could be used as racing marks. Having had some experience both cruising and racing, I wondered more at the inherent naivety of the question than the attitude. After all, @jviss has been on this boating forum for a long time and now has at least his second boat since we've "known" him here.
But I was gobsmacked when I went back and re-read his post. Here's what he said:
What was he upset about? Other boats being on the water and having the effrontery of being close to him and moving faster than he was?
Look, I "get it" that sometime "stuff happens" out on the water. But here is the REALITY of the situation @jviss put himself into: How many times have we read on this and all the other boating forums about how DANGEROUS it is to use buoys (or nav marks) as WAYPOINTS? Why? Because less knowledgeable boaters do so and could cause collisions near said marks simply because they do. In many cases these stories revolve around poor visibility or boaters relying on interfaced nav and autopilot systems - oops, bump!
The concept, then, for knowledgeable skippers is to avoid said markers, for those many reasons. The distance off varies by conditions and situations. In @jviss example, it is unclear how close he may have been to the mark, but in my experience racing, it may well have been very close for him to have been so upset by the other boats; say within 10 boat lengths or 400 feet in his case with his Tartan 38.
[Edit:] Another reason is the travel path between said marks. If one uses the marks as waypoints, then the path between them gets used as well. That is why knowledgeable boaters always OFFSET their travel paths between known waypoints, to avoid folks routing from mark to mark.
Hmm, yet another reason to NOT use markers as waypoints!
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We have a series with an "inside finish" starts at 6pm and you must cross the finish one mile straight upwind in a constricted channel that shoals on both sides poorly marked. This is just the first half dozen, if a wandering 50' sportfisher or such gets caught in it no one gets too excited, just another hazard to avoid like the breakwaters on both sides and the sandbars on the outer. I was coming up this channel once and a tour boat thanked me over his PA for short tacking to allow him past.
Non-racing, probably not Colregs faithful opinion here but I do have sympathy for Jviss in this situation. I have rounded that buoy closely as I turned into the anchorage or simply looked at Fort Adams or listened to outdoor concerts there. It is a logical route for cruisers in a crowded and busy harbor. Also, little has been said about the relative speed of the racers. If they really go 20 knots, I don't class them with typical sailboats. A swarm of sail at 20 knots is way different than a fleet at 5.