Electric harbors are coming.

[jviss]

It came from observation (a much better tool than assumption ): The boat was from Marblehead Ma. so was out for weeks or a month or two just to get here. This would be a challenge for a boat to recharge the battery. Some sailors have the panels and tech to deal with that (the old boat did not).

That's a revised comment. Your original comment was:

I suspect this couple is too old for the concept of electric power, charging, etc.

This couple is too old for the concept....is what I got.

I get this crap a lot form young people who, since they use the Internet think their parents are dinosaurs who don't get it. I then remind them that it is my generation that invented the internet (not Al Gore), and the computer and communications technology that created all of this stuff they take for granted.

I have to agree electric outboard use is growing. This year I was one. Last year I saw zero. That's an infinite growth in use, if my arithmetic is correct.

 

[jviss]

"They" could just as easily decide your old gas tank and connector was not safe enough and when you replace your hose, none that are compatible are available. It has happened.

I have not experienced that. I have a few of the hose connectors that go on the motor, and I started using metal gas tanks since the ethanol started ruining my plastic one. I've encountered various connections on tanks, but never one that stymied me for more than a few minutes. I just bought a NOS Suzuki 6 gal. metal tank, got a new hose with Suzuki connectors (similar to air hose connectors), and replaced the engine-side one with a Merc connector. Five minutes.

On the other hand, I've "re-celled" battery packs for various things including marine VHF handhelds, and done so that you can use them as they're designed you're still at the old battery technology, NiCd, for example, due to the radio and charger's electronics. And, there's no guarantee the battery pack packaging will survive the transplant. Don't ask me how I know.

What are the biggest issues with electric for transportation? Range, gauging, and recharging place and time. Range is getting better as battery technology evolves, but old systems don't necessarily accrue those benefits: it's more like scrap and re-purchase. (Note that electric cars' resale value is the lowest among classes of propulsion, i.e., gas, diesel, electric.) Gauging is troublesome. Users really want to know how far they can go before they have to recharge. Can they get there and back? Gauging is imprecise with electric, 'though people are working on sophisticated modeling both to estimate state of charge, using big data analysis techniques, and to estimate range using various models of battery behavior and models for range.

"One of the biggest obstacles preventing more widespread adoption of electric vehicles is “range anxiety,” the fear of losing power and seeing your car shut down in the middle of a long-distance drive. Current technologies that estimate how much longer a battery will last still provide inaccurate measurements, because they use computer models that rely heavily on the driver’s recent behavior and don’t account for other factors."
Using Big Data to Fight Range Anxiety in Electric Vehicles - IEEE Spectrum

With gas, I just pick up the tank and I know if I can make it or not, and when I should think about getting some more gas. The behavior of gas engines and gas regarding range is very well known, intuitive.

Charging - where? Where can I plug this thing in, and how long will it take? At my marina there's exactly one EV charging parking spot. The first EV that gets there will park and plug in, and stay there all weekend. No one else can use it. Can you imagine if everyone drove and EV, and everyone had a Torqeedo? Sure, you can charge your Torqeedo battery on your boat, but as Larry points out, it draws 4A and will take a long time to charge (31Ah/4A very optimistically is 8 hours). On a mooring you'd be running the main engine a lot longer if you want to use it tomorrow and keep your beer cold in your fridge. Solar - well, not if you arrive back at the boat in the evening and plan on using it in the a.m.

I have always thought that the only way this would work is if you could quickly swap your dead pack for a full one. That would require a very strongly enforced standard for packs for cars, I don't know about outboards.

I'm betting on "pocket" nuclear reactors.

 

[Will Gilmore]

With your vision, someone would have to invest in those charging stations, maintain them, have a way of charging for the electricity, and it would have to make commercial sense, or no one is going to do it. And so, unless it's heavily subsidized by the government, it's not going to happen.

Jviss, I hate to harp on this, especially with someone who's valuable contributions to this forum are so insightful as yours are. However, I strongly disagree with your conclusion. I think your assessment of the situation around the economics is sound, but the cost of installing charging stations on a dinghy dock should not present any significant investment when compared to the installation of a fuel dock. Most marinas are already wired and the interface could easily be a standard 110v outlet.
It would be up to the industry to decide on their final solution, but the economy of electrifying a dinghy dock could be justified as easily as the marketing dollars spent to compete against the neighboring marinas.
Security is, perhaps, a legitimate concern, but not specific to electric motors. Charging for the service can be accomplished by spreading that cost out to all who use the dock or by securing the receptacle with a simple pass code and meter. All of this costs money, but not on a scale to that of gasoline or diesel tank, pump and line installation.

-Will (Dragonfly)

 

[jviss]

Thanks for your kind words, Will, and your thoughtful reply. It's wonderful to be able to have a mutually respectful, non-personal debate on an important topic like this. I value and enjoy your posts.

All of this costs money, but not on a scale to that of gasoline or diesel tank, pump and line installation.

On this I disagree, only because the cost of a gas and diesel fueling facility is amortized over such a great number of users. I don't think anyone would disagree that gas stations work! They work for drivers, and they work commercially, and have for over 100 years.

Maybe my marina isn't as nice as yours, or the places I go not as well equipped, but I simply can't imagine them wiring the dinghy docks, either at my home port, or at Block Island, Edgartown, Cuttyhunk, Newport, et.al. They are just so bare, so primitive. And I can't imagine a system that would be safe where people would clamber up onto a dock with cord in hand, sometimes stepping through two other dinghies, and finding a place to plug in. And, who stays ashore long enough to put a significant charge into a battery? At your home port, where your dinghy is resting between weekends, yes. But then, you could just as well take that battery pack home. I can't see it happening as you describe.

 

[NotCook]

You can go to a close, centralized, shared fueling station - the gas dock - and in about 90 seconds pay ...

[in our case, that’s 5 miles away by water or car.]

A representative Torqeedo battery is 915 Wh, new. Let's call it an even kWh. That's 1/4000th of the energy in six gallons of gas.

With a gas station, there's an economy of scale that works. One pump and on attendant can service hundreds of customers per day...

Electric vehicles, because of the time required to charge them, and the energy density of the batteries, do not work at scale. Most proponents are simply not aware of the science of queuing theory, or willfully ignore it. In it's simplest form, consider queue time and service time.

[the process won’t be the same as for refueling ICE cars. Instead of 4 pumps that you queue behind to wait your turn to fill up, there will be the equivalent of a parking lot if charging stations. And, charging times are dropping faster than snowflakes in February. Ranges are now in the 300+ mile range and growing, and charging times already vary from 3 hours for a “L2” charger, to under 30 minutes for an 80% charge from an L4.]

...unless the number of charging stations grows exponentially, or the charging time shrinks dramatically.


[Both will happen over time. They are both occurring very rapidly]

You make a great case for the status quo - but you are resisting the inevitable, supported by over generalizations.

Virtually all of the leading auto makers are bringing out electric cars by this year or next, and many are starting to indicate that the will be producing ONLY electric cars by 2022.

Recharging a Torqeedo battery can be done all day long by solar from the boat. No need to make a trip to the gas dock (assuming there is one within 50 miles).

I get that you like your old trusty outboard. They don’t make 60 year old outboards any more. I’d love to have one of the old Johnson’s that we had when I was a kid. But they DO make new technology outboards, and they WILL be outstanding, even more so than they already are. I happen to love new technology. I love automatic transmissions, A/C, FM radio, SSB, GPS, Gel Cell batteries, electric flush toilets, 12V refrigeration, LED lighting (“warm” white), AIS, solar panels, lithium ion batteries, electric cars, and electric outboards. I, for one, regret that I won’t live to see some of the amazing technology that will be coming to the planet in general over the next several decades.

Enjoy your outboard. Just don’t try so hard to convince the rest of us that it’s “best” for all of us.

 

[jviss]

Thanks for your reply Brian. Please don't get me wrong, I embrace new technology, in fact, I develop it! I just don't buy the EV thing. And, I'm not trying to say what's best for you or anyone else. Just voicing my opinion, my analysis of the trend.

many are starting to indicate that the will be producing ONLY electric cars by 2022.

Name them, please! (Tesla doesn't count.) I hadn't heard anyone was burning the boats.

Electric harbors are certainly nor inevitable, no more so than I think EV only is. That would require an enormous shift, and enormous investment in infrastructure, one that could only be accomplished via a totalitarian regime. The commercial impetus to do so is certainly not there. Perhaps we'll see China do it first.

Regarding solar, when I had 250 Watts of panels on my previous boat, it was iffy to assume it was sufficient to run my fridge. Adding an outboard battery, with any significant use, would require a doubling of that, with nowhere reasonable to put them. And, that ignores the fact that there is no reasonable alternative to a 15HP gas outboard at this time, or in the foreseeable future, 'reasonable' meaning that it's reasonably affordable, and reasonably rechargeable.

 

[Will Gilmore]

Electric harbors are certainly nor inevitable, no more so than I think EV only is. That would require an enormous shift, and enormous investment in infrastructure, one that could only be accomplished via a totalitarian regime.

Remember the joining of the Union Pacific Railroad, the Eisenhower Highway system, the Internet?
It's been done before, without totalitarianism, but it does need mass public support and an economic element to the motivation.
Just look at the cost of smog controls, recycle centers, even desaster aid for outside nations. People want to help and are willing to sacrifice when they believe in a cause.
There are, infact, viable, if expensive, electric alternatives toi 15 hp motors already on the market. They WILL get better too.

EP-20 for $4,804.00
https://www.elcomotoryachts.com/product/ep-20-electric-outboard/
-Will (Dragonfly)

 

[Rick486]

I had to laugh when I read that. My family had a mid 50's Lightwin on a pram in the mid 60's. That smelly noisy thing was balky back then! If you're still running one today, more power to you (nobody wants to take it away from you). Ours hit the landfill in the 70's (or earlier).

I watched an elderly couple with paid crew wrestle a tiny old two-stroke off their stern rail the other day. When the mate finally got the engine on the stern, he helped the older couple board, one on the forward thwart and one in the middle. The mate on the stern seat then began to pull. And pull,....and pull. Nothing unusual about an outboard that won't start (I see it).

It wasn't lost on me that the dinghy was a nice little pulling boat and the shore not far,...I'm just saying.

This presented the next dilemma. The dinghy only had one rowing station in the middle. This required reboarding of one or two of the couple to allow the mate to get into the center thwart.

Once that move was achieved, the final insult was that they had to outboard mounted but had no space to tilt it out of the water. So they rowed with the extra drag instead of wrestling the old two stroke aboard again.


View attachment 169278

Is a Torqueedo the answer? I don't think so. I suspect this couple is too old for the concept of electric power, charging, etc. Their yacht was a boat yard maintained show piece. I'd bet maintenance costs alone come to more than 10K per year.

Not electric: I'd recommend they tell their yard to find the lightest -new- gas outboard. They only have a few seasons left with this boat, sadly. It's just dumb, in their case, to wrestle with a balky old outboard.

I never said tomorrow, but yep, electric harbors are coming.

Gee Tom, I'm kinda shocked at your denigrating seniors who happen to be comfortable. And maybe not long for this world....Kinda sounds like the Maine "...they're from away..."

 

[jviss]

EP-20 for $4,804.00

You neglected to add the $5,300 of LiIon battery, plus charger ($564) and battery wiring harness ($240) needed for this. $10,908, plus tax and shipping.

Let me ask you. Do you think a skinny 62 year old guy could pull a 100 lb. RIB plus this motor rig up on to a floating dinghy dock by himself? I can do it with my 73 lb. 2-stroke 15HP Merc.

The examples of infrastructure you cite are not analogous to an unnecessary conversion to an electric infrastructure. The internet was a relatively small DARPA project that grew into the Internet we know today because of its commercial value, not due to govt. funding. The interstate created something that didn't exist before. We have a perfectly good transportation infra based on oil that really doesn't need replacing, and replacing it with electric would be enormously disruptive and expensive, for zero net benefit.

 

[Captain Larry-DH]

They start Everytime... LOL

... and they help you live longer (and be happier)

 

[Captain Larry-DH]

We have a perfectly good transportation infra based on oil that really doesn't need replacing

It is unsustainable, long term.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

It is unsustainable, long term. And the oil economy is at the root of recent US wars in the mideast, and those wars resulted in the root cause of 9/11. How can you look into the future and say infra based on oil is sustainable? Fossil fuels are killing us in every way imaginable

I guess that is one way to look at the world!

 

[Rick486]

It is unsustainable, long term. And the oil economy is at the root of recent US wars in the mideast, and those wars resulted in the root cause of 9/11. How can you look into the future and say infra based on oil is sustainable? Fossil fuels are killing us in every way imaginable

My goodness Captain Larry. I guess history is not your strong suit.

 

[smokey73]

We've been discussing the relative merits of fossil fuel transporation (both dingy and cars at times). As with any emerging technology there are limits to its use and pros and cons. I tend to think that there is a practical limit to EV use and its growth in other than "city/urban" areas based on all the considerations that Jviss has pointed out.

If we go "whole hog" on EV, what are the unintended consequences? Where will the large scale power come from? We (the public) killed nuclear power so the alternatives are Solar, Wind, Coal, Gas/Oil, and Hydro. Wind and Solar might hack it for the dingy motor but not for the "who knows how many" car charging stations outside the Cracker Barrel or the Holiday Inn Express or the vast number of home charging stations? What toxins are involved in the production of Lithium Ion or follow on "high capacity batteries" needed to support the growth. Where will the Lithium come from? Will we be dependent on some other country for the vast amount of Li necessary to support an "all EV" transportation grid? Do we have the Li reserves in Conus? Will we exchange a "oil war" for a "Li war"? While EV has a lot of "green" appeal, I for one am not convinced its all that "green" when everthing is taken into account. Look up the way Li is extracted and it looks a lot like strip mining for the 21st century power.

So I'll keep my 2hp Suzuki 2-stroke. Its light, starts on the first pull (I maintain it well) and I know how far I can go without having to worry too much about how fast I go (note EV range is highly dependent on load ie speed)

 

[Will Gilmore]

To address a couple of jviss' counterpoints, the interstate highway system we know today, is actually a war machine on loan to the American public who had to pay for it. The concept started, in this country, when Eisenhower admired the ease of movement for his tanks the Autobahn presented, as he rolled into Berlin. It came at the perfect time of reconstruction and added to our nation's prosperity because it represented jobs for returning soldiers, easier/cheaper transportation of goods, and a sense of hope for a better future. Electric cars and electric energy storage technology has the potential to offer those very same elements. The issues of Global Climate Change help move the population into that very same social condition of need. Whole new industries, that won't be allowed to fail when they get big enough, are sprouting up out of this condition and electric transportation and energy storage is right there at the forefront.
The Internet started as a collaborative between scientific institutions with the department of defense funding it. The original move to public use, like the highway system, was intended for the non-commercial benefit of the population (think ham radio). It didn't take long for the government(s) to push world wide universal adaptation of its integration into our lives. Funding was made availible to institutions like schools and libraries. The installation of public wifi hotspots popped up almost overnight. In less that 20 years, we now act as if Internet access is a basic human right. That wasn't all just a happy accident. It offers jobs, ease of movement of information and cheaper commerce and offers hope for a brighter future. The cell phone revolution is another amazing off-shoot of this.
The US is just one part of the equation. Our public transportation system, among other industries, is old and decrepit. Our trains are bullets at 50 mph, while European and Asian trains move at warp speed. We, as much as the rest of the world, need this move to a new, potentially limitlessly growing, job creating, idea infusing, future tech-based industry. It will help unlock some of the economic stranglehold old infrastructure imposes on us.
I'm very excited and think it's about time we moved on as a planet of intelligent organized life.

-Will ("Futurist", Dragonfly)

 

[jviss]

It didn't take long for the government(s) to push world wide universal adaptation of its integration into our lives

That's total B.S., revisionist history. I happen to know, I was there, and worked on it, and related technologies, in the commercial sector.

 

[jviss]

I hear a brilliant talk once a guy who was a founder of both FedEx and AOL. He pointed out that there are three necessary qualities for a technology or business to grow quickly: utility, ubiquity, and economy. Stated more verbosely, it must be truly useful; it must be available everywhere, to anyone who wants it; and it must be affordable by these masses who want it. EVs possess none of these characteristics. They don't have sufficient range, they can't be charged where the masses park their cars, e.g., the streets of cities, and they are very expensive. Remove the taxpayer funded subsides, and they are more expensive.

Many proponents like to imply that EV technology will grow, with accelerated growth, the way microelectronics-based and software based echnologies have grown, simply because it is emergent and electric. This is a fallacy. There is a vast difference between scale of energy density and scale of microelectronics and software, and they are not analogous. We are already coming up against the physical limits of solar and wind generation whose boundaries are set by laws of gravity, inertia, friction, mass, and thermodynamics. Moore's law does no apply to solar and wind; the Shockley-Queisser Limit and the Betz Limit do, respectively. While batteries are improving, and coming down in cost, dramatically, bear in mind that Li-Ion battery technology is 50 years old, and gains in density have flattened to single-digit percentage gains. Don't expect the laws of physics (chemistry to be precise) to change so that batteries increase in energy density at the rate that microelectronics did in circuit density in the last several decades.

To believe that so-called green energy generation technologies and electrically propelled vehicles will supplant petroleum based, internal combustion technology any time soon, meaning in the next century or two, requires magical thinking. The only hope for that is nuclear, or the discovery of some fantastic, new energy storage and consumption technology, on par in the history of mankind with coal, oil, and nuclear.

I know I won't convince the true believers, just as they won't convince me - given what I've heard and seen and read so far. I will do my best to keep an open mind. I know that solar and wind, and EVs are useful in certain applications - I have one of those stand-up electric scooters - but it it is not the end-game technology is it made out to be.

Credits: I borrowed a phrase or two from this:
"The "New Energy Economy": An Exercise in Magical Thinking," Mark P. Millis

 

[Will Gilmore]

Jviss, I'll totally concede to your point about the growth rate of EV versus chip technology. Moore's Law wasn't a real law of science anyhow, although I had several professors who thought it was.
I don't see any growth in this industry that isn't incremental without some unforeseen tech breakthrough. But to discount its importance based on an economical arguement is to cripple that potential from the beginning. Investments must be made to make advancements and those investments can only be made with the sanction of the a large portion of the population. My arguement is that it isn't futile or economically unsound to look towards that future, because I believe we will get there.

-Will (Dragonfly)

 

[SoSound]

To believe that so-called green energy generation technologies and electrically propelled vehicles will supplant petroleum based, internal combustion technology any time soon, meaning in the next century or two, requires magical thinking. The only hope for that is nuclear, or the discovery of some fantastic, new energy storage and consumption technology, on par in the history of mankind with coal, oil, and nuclear.

Or, perhaps, just the ongoing evolution of respective technologies and markets;
Wind Power Prices Now Lower Than The Cost Of Natural Gas

The ONLY reason that I purchased an internal combustion outboard last winter was because I doubted that I could match the range of my battery powered outboard at a lower cost than buying the internal combustion unit. If I find that I can carry an extra battery, and charge it, for less than what I paid for the noise maker, it's out of here faster than I can post the ad on Craigslist...

 

[Will Gilmore]

Just found this
Solar powered charging station for boats.
Local Company Introduces Solar Powered Boat Charging Stations - ABC 6 News

-Will (Dragonfly)