Electric harbors are coming.

Feb 21, 2013
4,638
Hunter 46 Point Richmond, CA
That's great, as long as you don't need the dinghy to get to the boat!

No big deal, as long as you plan your dinghy trips and motor battery charging intervals. Love my Torqeedo with the long range battery.
 
Jul 1, 1998
3,062
Hunter Legend 35 Poulsbo/Semiahmoo WA
Many of the major car companies are coming out with all electric cars. Ford has an electric F-150 in the pipeline. There are way more electric car charging stations now than there are gas pumps!!! (at least in Washington). My uncle just told me last week that his electric bill in Phoenix last month was $19, and this with air conditioning and +100ºF. For cars, electric is not a problem. Just got a Ryobi Pole Saw (8" chain saw) for tree trimming. Same battery fits the hedge trimmer and weed wacker.

For outboards, electric power would be fine for us. We cruise up the coast and the places to buy fuel are few and very far between. Given our solar panels (also wind generator) it would be a lot easier to charge an outboard battery than it is to buy, and then pack, a lot of gas, 2-cycle so it takes oil-mix. I've been eyeing the Torquedos for some time but then what to do with the gas outboard? The thought of theft is a worry but not so much for the 30 year old gas outboard.

Replace the Yanmar diesel? Not so fast. Batteries are well suited for cordless hand tools and cars which vary in speed a lot and can recharge when slowing down or going down a hill, but the boat engine has no way to regenerate the power. Just maybe, a feathering prop one can put in reverse while under sail that can recharge the batteries? Unfortunately, that would slow me down so for this boater not a very good option. MAYBE a hybrid ... would be a place to dump all that excess solar & wind generator power. This would be great for Bluewater cruising, especially through the doldrums. Thinking about it now, when the boat sits in the marina for a week or so at a time, it could be charging the batteries, so who knows?
 
Feb 21, 2013
4,638
Hunter 46 Point Richmond, CA
I've been eyeing the Torquedos for some time but then what to do with the gas outboard? The thought of theft is a worry but not so much for the 30 year old gas outboard.

What to do with the gas outboard, sell it. As far as mitigating theft I addressed my strategy for my Torqeedo in a previous thread. Since it is so lightweight and compact without gasoline/lube oil suggest stowing in a lazarette or lock it on a stern rail mount to stern rail as I do. Hope that helps.
 
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Oct 19, 2017
7,748
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
Ah, the problems with recharging.
While electric motive transport may not have the range per energy capacity of combustion fuels, for now, there are far more options for recharging than with other options that require a fuel dock or gas station.
I have not heard of such a thing yet, but I'm certain there will soon be dinghy docks with plug and charge stations built right in. That is something you will never see with combustible fuels. There are charging station parking spaces at our local co-op. When's the last time you had your gas tank filled while shopping?
With a carry-with-you battery pack, you might even be able to charge in the restaurant while coming ashore for dinner.
Solar, wind, reclamation charging are all ised on boats now.
How about wave generation? You have an anchor or mooring sitting steady pn the bottom and a boat that moves up and down with the waves, put that motion to work. Anyone remember self winding watches? There you go. Then there's galvanic charge in a saline solution. You are sacrificing a zinc anode anyway. Even temperature changes can be converted to electrical energy.

Just look at all these options that don't rely on coming ashore to a fuel dock.

-Will (Dragonfly)
 
Dec 29, 2008
805
Treworgy 65' LOA Custom Steel Pilothouse Staysail Ketch St. Croix, Virgin Islands
i wonder what condition the torqueedo will be in in 55 yrears
Don’t know, but I won’t have to worry about carrying gas for it, or wonder where I’m going to get gas for it next.
 
Dec 29, 2008
805
Treworgy 65' LOA Custom Steel Pilothouse Staysail Ketch St. Croix, Virgin Islands
at present if you use electric propulsion you are just removing emissions from your locale to someone else's.
Not necessarily. We have plenty of solar on the boat to charge a battery. That’s how our house batteries are charged. We haven’t started the generator for 3 years (that reminds me, again, I really need to crank it up to make sure it still works!). If we take it home to change it, our home is 100% solar powered - no connection to the, grid at all. Do again, we would be charging from solar. Frankly , I can’t envision a situation where we would EVER recharge from a fossil fuel source. But, then, we live in the Caribbean, so...
 

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
6,748
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
Don’t know, but I won’t have to worry about carrying gas for it, or wonder where I’m going to get gas for it next.
You will have to worry about how you will replace the batteries, as they will inevitably require replacement; an whether batteries of the size, voltage, and compatible charging scheme are available, and if they can be retrofitted to your battery pack. However, 60+ year old outboards run fine on contemporary gas.
 

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
6,748
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
I'm certain there will soon be dinghy docks with plug and charge stations built right in. That is something you will never see with combustible fuels.
Will, there's a lot of magical thinking in that post of yours, but let's just address this part. First, the second sentence. You'll never see this for combustible fuels because it's entirely unnecessary! You can go to a close, centralized, shared fueling station - the gas dock - and in about 90 seconds pay for 4Mwh worth of portable enregy that weighs about 36 pounds. That's "Mega-Watt hours." Six gallons of gas. And, for the most part, it stays good for quite a while, and if you use your dinghy as I do, lasts for about 6 weeks before refueling. And I refuel in 4 gallon increments, so I have 2 gallons left when I head to the fuel dock.

A representative Torqeedo battery is 915 Wh, new. Let's call it an even kWh. That's 1/4000th of the energy in six gallons of gas.

With a gas station, there's an economy of scale that works. One pump and on attendant can service hundreds of customers per day, and dispense billions of Wh of energy. Billions. The infrastructure is shard, spreadaa out over a large customer base. The economics work.

With your vision, someone would have to invest in those charging stations, maintain them, have a way of charging for the electricity, and it would have to make commercial sense, or no one is going to do it. And so, unless it's heavily subsidized by the government, it's not going to happen.

Electric vehicles, because of the time required to charge them, and the energy density of the batteries, do not work at scale. Most proponents are simply not aware of the science of queuing theory, or willfully ignore it. In it's simplest form, consider queue time and service time. How long does it take to charge? How long will you have to wait to charge, given the demand, and the number of charging stations at the end of the queue? With their much lower energy storage capacity, and much longer recharge time compared to gas, lines would grow exponentially - clogging the roads - unless the number of charging stations grows exponentially, or the charging time shrinks dramatically. Of the entire motoring population, only a very small fraction have the luxury of a private garage and charging station. There are many more cars parked on the street in the Bronx than there are private garages in all of NYC.

For outboards - it's impossible to beat the economy, utility and flexibility of gas, or the ubiquity of useable refueling facilities, in my opinion And I don't think that will change in the next century, or longer.
 
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Oct 19, 2017
7,748
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
You will have to worry about how you will replace the batteries, as they will inevitably require replacement; an whether batteries of the size, voltage, and compatible charging scheme are available, and if they can be retrofitted to your battery pack. However, 60+ year old outboards run fine on contemporary gas.
That's what would keep you from buying electric? Worry that the terminal interface would no longer be supported by the industry? That same arguement doesn't worry you about the rubber fuel line connection from tank to motor. "They" could just as easily decide your old gas tank and connector was not safe enough and when you replace your hose, none that are compatible are availible. It has happened. Try buying a gas can that has just a straight nozzle without a complicated spring loaded shutoff and safety cap any more. Same with LP bottles, industries "upgrade" standard interfaces all the time. Usually it is to make things more complex and necessary to replace more often. Granted, OBs have been fairly well insulated from such changes, but that is hardly an arguement to stay away from electric which can easily be adapted to varying interface and voltage requirements.

-Will (Dragonfly)
 
May 17, 2004
5,082
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
You can go to a close, centralized, shared fueling station - the gas dock - and in about 90 seconds pay for 4Mwh worth of portable enregy that weighs about 36 pounds. That's "Mega-Watt hours." Six gallons of gas. And, for the most part, it stays good for quite a while, and if you use your dinghy as I do, lasts for about 6 weeks before refueling. And I refuel in 4 gallon increments, so I have 2 gallons left when I head to the fuel dock.

A representative Torqeedo battery is 915 Wh, new. Let's call it an even kWh. That's 1/4000th of the energy in six gallons of gas.
Not so sure about your math there. As far as I can find the energy density of gasoline is 9.5KWH/L, which is about 36KWH/ gallon, so your 6 gallon gas tank is 215KWH. Also consider that internal combustion engines are only about 15% efficient, so you really only have 32 KWH of energy to propel the boat. Electric motors are about 70% efficient, so the torqueedo battery (which weighs a whole lot less than 6 gallons of gas) is worth about 640 WH. That's a ratio of 50:1, not 4000:1.
 

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
6,748
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
That same arguement doesn't worry you about the rubber fuel line connection from tank to motor.
That's right. Try "rejuvenating" a dead battery pack from a 10 year old cordless drill. Can you find compatible battery cells, open the plastic pack, weld the tabs onto the cells, and get it all back together and working? On the other hand, pour some 92 Octane unleaded gas and some 2-stroke oil into the integral gas tank of a 1957 Evinrude Lightwin outboard, and see what happens.
 

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
6,748
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
Not so sure about your math there. As far as I can find the energy density of gasoline is 9.5KWH/L, which is about 36KWH/ gallon, so your 6 gallon gas tank is 215KWH. Also consider that internal combustion engines are only about 15% efficient, so you really only have 32 KWH of energy to propel the boat. Electric motors are about 70% efficient, so the torqueedo battery (which weighs a whole lot less than 6 gallons of gas) is worth about 640 WH. That's a ratio of 50:1, not 4000:1.
Acknowledge, thanks David, I may have been carrying over an error from converting from megajoules to kilowatts....

However, internal combustion engines have an efficiency of in the range of 25 to 50%, depending on a lot of factors. The number you cite I've seen, where some argue in favor of electric by performing a calculation that includes the efficiency of making the fuel. That factor doesn't enter into this case.
 

TomY

Alden Forum Moderator
Jun 22, 2004
2,759
Alden 38' Challenger yawl Rockport Harbor
On the other hand, pour some 92 Octane unleaded gas and some 2-stroke oil into the integral gas tank of a 1957 Evinrude Lightwin outboard, and see what happens.
I had to laugh when I read that. My family had a mid 50's Lightwin on a pram in the mid 60's. That smelly noisy thing was balky back then! :) If you're still running one today, more power to you (nobody wants to take it away from you). Ours hit the landfill in the 70's (or earlier).

I watched an elderly couple with paid crew wrestle a tiny old two-stroke off their stern rail the other day. When the mate finally got the engine on the stern, he helped the older couple board, one on the forward thwart and one in the middle. The mate on the stern seat then began to pull. And pull,....and pull. Nothing unusual about an outboard that won't start (I see it).

It wasn't lost on me that the dinghy was a nice little pulling boat and the shore not far,...I'm just saying.

This presented the next dilemma. The dinghy only had one rowing station in the middle. This required reboarding of one or two of the couple to allow the mate to get into the center thwart.

Once that move was achieved, the final insult was that they had to outboard mounted but had no space to tilt it out of the water. So they rowed with the extra drag instead of wrestling the old two stroke aboard again.


Whimbrel dinghy ride.jpg


Is a Torqueedo the answer? I don't think so. I suspect this couple is too old for the concept of electric power, charging, etc. Their yacht was a boat yard maintained show piece. I'd bet maintenance costs alone come to more than 10K per year.

Not electric: I'd recommend they tell their yard to find the lightest -new- gas outboard. They only have a few seasons left with this boat, sadly. It's just dumb, in their case, to wrestle with a balky old outboard.

I never said tomorrow, but yep, electric harbors are coming. :)
 
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jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
6,748
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
As with any technology, if properly maintained it should work well. Such it is with outbaords. Many people just run them, doing nothing, and expect the "motor shop" to make it perfect over the winter.

There are still many Lightwins available, and many run very well.

Odd comment about the couple being too old for the concept electric - where did that come from? As I pointed out previously, electric propulsion for boats (subs) pre-dates gasoline. For all you know, that old guy might have been the captain of a WWII "electric boat." :)
 
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Jun 14, 2010
2,100
Robertson & Caine 2017 Leopard 40 CT
Now I have lived with the Torqeedo about 6 days of actual use. I find the range is very good -- 6-8 nm provided you go slow... (~15 if you go around 2 knots) and go even slower if you have a strong headwind. The 915wh battery is equivalent to about 31AH, and it recharges at about 4A from the boat, so it takes a long time to fully recharge from low battery.
 
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jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
6,748
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
So, let me ask a question. Do you need to go HP to HP, going gas to electric? For example, to replace a 3HP Lightwin, must you run a 3HP electric motor? A 3HP electric motor weighs A LOT more than a 3HP two-stroke gas engine.
 

TomY

Alden Forum Moderator
Jun 22, 2004
2,759
Alden 38' Challenger yawl Rockport Harbor
Odd comment about the couple being too old for the concept electric - where did that come from?
It came from observation (a much better tool than assumption :) ): The boat was from Marblehead Ma. so was out for weeks or a month or two just to get here. This would be a challenge for a boat to recharge the battery. Some sailors have the panels and tech to deal with that (the old boat did not).

Electric dinghy motors (or cars), are not for everybody, I've always said that. The number of users is growing (my observation / sales #'s).

Is it because the tech is evolving or that the user is evolving? I think it is both. Outboards work for most people, today.