Electric harbors are coming.

[dLj]

It is inevitable that crude oil will be replaced as we have a finite amount of it available. Clearly gasoline powered vehicles will be the first to see decline but diesel powered vehicles will take much longer. Heavy duty vehicles will still be using diesel for a long time. Diesel made from alternative sources will grow with reliance on crude as the single source declining. It would be interesting to see what finally replaces diesel, but I doubt in my lifetime I will get to know what that is.

dj

 

[jviss]

a finite amount of it available

It may be replaced by synthetics, but still liquid, hydrocarbon based fuels.

BTW, people have been talking about the earth running out of oil for as long as we've been pumping it, yet, newe deposits are constantly being discovered, as well as new techniques to extract it. It's not happening anytime soon.

You're right, diesels can be run on almost anything, including many renewables, like vegetable oils.

 

[Daveinet]

And then there's this;
Economics of Electric Vehicles Mean Oil's Days As A Transport Fuel Are Numbered

It should be a significant red flag that virtually none of the disadvantages of electric vehicles are even mentioned in the article. The cost factors do not even consider the original purchase price, let alone the cost of ownership as it relates to time lost due to recharge requirements. Fact is, most of us could not go electric only and can't afford a very expensive car that can not do everything. Electric vehicles have their place, just as electric motors on dingys or sailboats. But electric can not universally replace combustion engines.

 

[jviss]

Just found this
Solar powered charging station for boats.
Local Company Introduces Solar Powered Boat Charging Stations - ABC 6 News

-Will (Dragonfly)

I found this funny. Anyone elase? I read the linked article. I have never read such B.S. in my life. Here's a quote:

“We had a distressed boater here in Newport that had lost power, and we were lucky to be able to have this platform over here and provide them shelter, and also be able to recharge their vessel so they could get back again at sea.”

Does this pass the smell test, for anyone??? I might write them and ask when that happened, and the name and hailing port of the vessel. Because I think it's fiction.

It's a good example for my queuing theory reply earlier. So, let's say four boats tie up to "recharge." What about the fifth, sixth, seventh boats? Where do they wait, and for how long? I've circled around waiting for the fuel dock to clear in my marina, usually not for long, as even a boat taking on 100+ gallons is only there for 10 minutes or so. With this electric "fuel" dock you could be waiting for - I don't know, 12 hours? And how is the queue managed, who arbitrates who's next, and next, and next.

Remember: queue time, service time. For diesel or gas, at my marina, queue time is usually zero, service time is on the order of ten minutes if I get water at the same time.

Diesel = 41 kWh/g. I usually take 1/2 tank, 18 or so gallons when I visit. So, I pick up 740 kWh of energy in under 10 minutes, and leave so the next guy can get in. And I'm good for weeks. How long would this take if I was charging even the fastest-charging batteries available, both for propulsion and house use? And, since I couldn't possibly store as much energy as I can with diesel, I would have to visit the charging dock more often. You can see, I hope, that this runs away very quickly.

To put this into perspective, a Li-Ion battery has an energy density on the order of 0.36–0.875 MJ/kg. Dry cow dung is about 15 MJ/kg. Diesel about 46 MJ/kg.

The only fuel with a higher energy density than liquid hydrocarbons is nuclear. Batteries are not even close, indeed, a much lower energy density than wood.

Source: Energy Density

 

[dLj]

BTW, people have been talking about the earth running out of oil for as long as we've been pumping it, yet, newe deposits are constantly being discovered, as well as new techniques to extract it. It's not happening anytime soon.

Agreed, it will get more and more expensive over time. But it is an inexorable fact that there is a finite amount available. We will run out.

dj

 

[jviss]

Virtually all of the leading auto makers are bringing out electric cars by this year or next, and many are starting to indicate that the will be producing ONLY electric cars by 2022.

Still waiting for the names of these car companies that indicating that the will be producing ONLY electric cars by 2022. Ha, ha, ha!

I think what the poster may have seen, and misinterpreted, is that some are saying that of EVs, they will only produce battery EVs, and no longer produce hybrids or plug-in hybrids. Good luck with even that.

EVs are for the elite. How many can afford them, and have a place to plug them in an night? It leavs the poor and most of the middle class behind. It's deepening class division, and animosity, with all kinds of perks and subsidies, like special travel lanes, preferred parking, free charging, and more, for the rich.

 

[Daveinet]

Agreed, it will get more and more expensive over time. But it is an inexorable fact that there is a finite amount available. We will run out.
dj

I would suggest fixing your statement to:"Someone" will run out. Not sure its going to happen in my lifetime. And truthfully, I think it presumptuous to suggest that we actually will run out. Technology is such that demands will change. There likely will be something better that occurs before we run out.

 

[Will Gilmore]

Does this pass the smell test, for anyone??? I might write them and ask when that happened, and the name and hailing port of the vessel. Because I think it's fiction.

I agree. It does sound like made up marketing hype. Clearly there were other options availible without that dock, if such a distressed vessel actually existed. The point of posting the picture was to show movement in the direction of recharging docks, which the picture and article show.
It's too bad that those who are so committed to pushing one agenda or another, have to resort to misrepresentation, exaggeration and outright mendaciousness. It ends up hurting their cause more than helping.

-Will (Dragonfly)

 

[Will Gilmore]

It's a good example for my queuing theory reply earlier. So, let's say four boats tie up to "recharge." What about the fifth, sixth, seventh boats? Where do they wait, and for how long?

I am familiar with queuing theory. I have two degrees in computer science and worked as a design engineer in a furniture factory. There are several ways to address this issue. Electrical charging stations are really not much more than a glorified electrical outlet and in terms of cost per station, far cheaper to install than a fuel pump. This means, where real estate makes it possible, more stations can be installed to service slower processes simultaneously. Think of it like the difference between men's restrooms and women's restrooms. There is always a longer line at the women's restroom because women need a full stall seat for even the quickest functions, while men can utilize the less expensive and space saving urinal. There are more stations in a men's room, so faster overall service.
Another way is to break out the complex process into a series of quick simpler processes. Many factories fall for the sales pitch around the all-in-one machine that can soll the work of 5 machines for the cost of 3 machines. Save on setup/ change over time between jobs, etc. The problem is, that machine becomes a bottleneck because it holds each part 3 times longer than any one of the five machines it's replacing. The solution is to break those 5 steps back out the way they do at the drive thru window. Place your order then drive to one window to pay, drive to the next to pickup your order. If everyone pays and picks up their order at the same window, the wait in the queue seems longer because there is a longer holding time in one place. The end result is that each part takes more time to get through the line to the end, but more parts are popping out of that end per day.
The third way to address this issue, and the one I would expect will be the final solution to this quandary, is to separate the process from the production. That is, install a pre processed part while the part is being processed elsewhere. This is like the way we treat LP bottles. You don't take your gas grill to the station and fill the empty bottle, you remove the bottle from the grill, install a pre filled bottle and swap the empty. This is what I see as the best solution for the current state of technology. If the IEEE can standardize to batteries for EV, just pull up to a battery exchange station, give them your discharged battery and get a fully charged battery to plug in in its place. Minutes of time with the right engineering.

-Will (Dragonfly)

 

[jviss]

This is interesting. It got my attention to see that Defender had a deal where you get a free spare battery when you purchase a Torqeedo motor. Then I read this:

*Special Deal on New Old Stock! This promotion includes a FREE spare Torqeedo 530 watt hour battery when you purchase this Torqeedo Travel 1003 L Electric Motor with a production date of 2015. These motors have the same features as the same model manufactured today. The original battery that comes with this motor has been maintained by our service department in accordance with the manufacturer's guidelines. Free, current Torqeedo Travel 530 watt hour battery (1147-00) will be added to the payment page of your cart at checkout.

Factory Warranty Begins on Date of Purchase.


So, Defender still has 2015 models in stock. I guess they aren't selling that well? And, I suppose the extra battery is to cover any complaints about the 4 year old battery the motor comes with?

 

[smokey73]

This is like the way we treat LP bottles. You don't take your gas grill to the station and fill the empty bottle, you remove the bottle from the grill, install a pre filled bottle and swap the empty. This is what I see as the best solution for the current state of technology. If the IEEE can standardize to batteries for EV, just pull up to a battery exchange station, give them your discharged battery and get a fully charged battery to plug in in its place. Minutes of time with the right engineering.

-Will (Dragonfly)

Will, that seems logical for things like a small portable EV like a dingy outboard but ----. For car or a sailboat I can only imagine the difficulties involved in changing out the batteries at an "exchange station" even with standardized batteries. I don't own an electric car but I imagine the batteries are very heavy to accomodate any reasonable range. Maybe I'm wrong. I can imagine the need for forklifts, rigging gear or the like to get the batteries out and put in new ones. The labor will not be trivial, the OSHA rules will probably be restrictive on who can do this and will not be free. Even with a really slick design I don't see it as a "self service" item like exchanging a propane tank and I can't see it as being a few minute task. I might be wrong and probably am but I just can't imagine "minutes" for an exchange of car batteries.

 

[Will Gilmore]

I don't see it as a "self service" item

Actually, that's exactly how I envision it. Maybe harder for boats, but I picture a machine, like a touchless carwash, that extracts the old battery from behind or under the bumper of your car, puts it into a charging carousel and slides a fresh battery into place. With modern robotics and sensors no more sophisticated than an automatic carwash, I see no real problem. All it requires is standards for interface and moderately similar body configurations. If it's worth building a robotic carwash for $10-$20 bucks a pop, something like a battery exchange should be easy to justify.

-Will (Dragonfly)

 

[Rick Webb]

If I had an all electric car and a storm comes along knocks out the power for a couple of days what am I to do?

At least with my truck I can start it up run an extension cord out to the truck plug in a window air conditioner and wait for the power to come back on in comfort.

 

[smokey73]

Will, I hadn't thought of it that way. Robotics would be the key and I"ve seen them do some pretty sophisticated things, like handle chemical warheads, grab, position, drain, rinse and put on a conveyor, so rethinking things you might be on to something. Its really the only thing that makes any sense. Who knows, m

 

[jviss]

Actually, that's exactly how I envision it. Maybe harder for boats, but I picture a machine, like a touchless carwash, that extracts the old battery from behind or under the bumper of your car, puts it into a charging carousel and slides a fresh battery into place. With modern robotics and sensors no more sophisticated than an automatic carwash, I see no real problem. All it requires is standards for interface and moderately similar body configurations. If it's worth building a robotic carwash for $10-$20 bucks a pop, something like a battery exchange should be easy to justify.

-Will (Dragonfly)

It's only slightly more complicated than a car wash.

How many batteries would they have on hand, in order to make sure, at like five-nines, that they will have a full one when you come in? And how many charging harnesses would they need? And what would that all cost? And who will finance that, underwrite all of that capital?

Not to mention, how are you going to get ALL car makers to standardize on a battery interchange system?

Not going to happen.

 

[dLj]

One of the difficulties with a battery exchange is ownership. I own my battery. I have really good or new batteries. So how do I know in the exchange of I'm getting the same quality battery. This is a dilemma.


dj

 

[smokey73]

By the way, I have a 2009 diesel sedan and will keep it as long as I can. I average 30+ mpg over the last 10,000 miles (and the previous 130,000 too). I can get 42 mpg on the highway if I kep it at 65 mph and 38-39 mpg at 75 mph. Over 700 miles on a single tank of gas stopping only to relieve myself if necessary. I can't see that as even a possiblity with an all electric car. I'll keep my dinosaur fueled fossil as long as I can. It seems there are a lot more diesel cars in Europe than here in the states.

 

[jviss]

Why Hasn't Battery Swapping For Electric Cars Caught On Yet?

 

[jviss]

You don't take your gas grill to the station and fill the empty bottle, you remove the bottle from the grill, install a pre filled bottle and swap the empty.

I don't swap the empty, I have it refilled at the hardware store down the street. I get about 32kWh of energy for about $15. And it only weighs about 25 lb., including the bottle.

 

[jviss]

One of the difficulties with a battery exchange is ownership. I own my battery. I have really good or new batteries. So how do I know in the exchange of I'm getting the same quality battery. This is a dilemma.


dj

The same issue exists with compressed gas. They are usually exchanged, and you have to throw your new bottle into the system to get a full tank in an old tank. Really bothers me, too! Some place refill them - argon, oxygen, acetylene, but you have to wait about two weeks.