Racer not giving way
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There are dick racers and dick cruisers
There are polite racers and polite cruisers
And there are sailors who just don't know, are confused or are novice
I believe the polite cruisers should do what is reasonably possible not to interfere with the racers
Conversely, racers should not expect cruisers to go huge distances around a course, or in the mayhem of a race that suddenly comes upon an interloper behave like predatory wild animals. The thought occurred to me that the lone cruiser is in essence in a race against its own precious time and the elements, but often voluntarily gives way to the pressing needs of the many racers.
And yes, my wife and I spent years crewing race boats on LI Sound (Night Hawk anyone?), and prefer not to do it now because I witnessed too many skippers behaving like wild animals towards their crews and other crews on the circuit. Unfortunately these courses are not Watkins Glenn or Road America; they are on public waterways and the crude behavior I have observed (and yes I have also sailed multiple times at Annapolis which, as someone else mentioned, can be problematic) simply makes for an incredibly crappy day on the water.
I learned a lot from racing that I have since forgotten, but bad behavior is not one I care to emulate. And I see enough bad behavior from cruisers as well. I now sail the long very narrow Sturgeon Bay channel to get to Lake Michigan or Green Bay and the number of high speed boats with huge wakes not making the effort to alter their course even one or two degrees used to really upset me until I realized that it is a public waterway, and that dicks will be dicks whether I get upset about it or not. As such I decided not to purchase a PA system to scream at them as they go by. If I get swamped I will simply call the Coast Guard.
I don't believe anything I've sermonized (my apologies) is different from anything I've read above. Civilized considerate behavior by all would be wonderful.
To put things in perspective, think about how tiny your 5 ounce hypothalamus is, to be allowed to let lose to rage against a 5 ton boat and all it's occupants. I have driven open wheel (Formula Dodge) cars at Road America where raw aggressiveness was the order of the day, But even then there were some ground rules regarding other racers (albeit few and primitive), and imagine the absolute mayhem if road traffic was also allowed on the course!!
And yet that is the situation we contend with as sailors. I was born an ass, and before I die aspire to become a gentleman. For me the ultimate challenge. For others not so relevant or even childish. If so, tell your hypothalamus to just deal with it.
There are dick racers and dick cruisers
There are polite racers and polite cruisers
And there are sailors who just don't know, are confused or are novice
I believe the polite cruisers should do what is reasonably possible not to interfere with the racers
Conversely, racers should not expect cruisers to go huge distances around a course, or in the mayhem of a race that suddenly comes upon an interloper behave like predatory wild animals. The thought occurred to me that the lone cruiser is in essence in a race against its own precious time and the elements, but often voluntarily gives way to the pressing needs of the many racers.
And yes, my wife and I spent years crewing race boats on LI Sound (Night Hawk anyone?), and prefer not to do it now because I witnessed too many skippers behaving like wild animals towards their crews and other crews on the circuit. Unfortunately these courses are not Watkins Glenn or Road America; they are on public waterways and the crude behavior I have observed (and yes I have also sailed multiple times at Annapolis which, as someone else mentioned, can be problematic) simply makes for an incredibly crappy day on the water.
I learned a lot from racing that I have since forgotten, but bad behavior is not one I care to emulate. And I see enough bad behavior from cruisers as well. I now sail the long very narrow Sturgeon Bay channel to get to Lake Michigan or Green Bay and the number of high speed boats with huge wakes not making the effort to alter their course even one or two degrees used to really upset me until I realized that it is a public waterway, and that dicks will be dicks whether I get upset about it or not. As such I decided not to purchase a PA system to scream at them as they go by. If I get swamped I will simply call the Coast Guard.
I don't believe anything I've sermonized (my apologies) is different from anything I've read above. Civilized considerate behavior by all would be wonderful.
To put things in perspective, think about how tiny your 5 ounce hypothalamus is, to be allowed to let lose to rage against a 5 ton boat and all it's occupants. I have driven open wheel (Formula Dodge) cars at Road America where raw aggressiveness was the order of the day, But even then there were some ground rules regarding other racers (albeit few and primitive), and imagine the absolute mayhem if road traffic was also allowed on the course!!
And yet that is the situation we contend with as sailors. I was born an ass, and before I die aspire to become a gentleman. For me the ultimate challenge. For others not so relevant or even childish. If so, tell your hypothalamus to just deal with it.
I really don't thing this is a racer vs cruiser thing. And while I DO race, I'm pretty sure I'm put more miles and more nights out than 90% of the people here posting, so I think I'm qualified to post from both sides.I can't believe the people in here siding with the racers! I'm in complete agreement with Skipper. You can't just duck one ... then it's an almost never ending process of ducking and avoiding, leading to confusion when others are coming up on the position where you are ducking to. Jackdaws illogical arguments are astonishing to me.
The only logical argument is the explanation that the racing fleets have told me on Lake Hopatcong. "When you are on starboard or otherwise have ROW (there's that term!) stand your course because that is what we expect you to do" They tell me that they will either cross or duck, and it may be close, but they don't want you to change direction while they are adjusting their direction in accordance with the navigation rules. In essence, the non-racer is considered no differently than another sailboat in the race. Perhaps their positive attitude is influenced because of the realization that a race on Lake Hopatcong is inherently difficult to maneuver around. That said, I usually tried to avoid the course, but not always. After several years passing thru race courses and sometimes blundering into an awkward situation, I never once had an angry look, gesture or spoken word. Always just a friendly wave. Maybe that's cause there just aren't any a-holes on Lake Hopatcong!?!?
It's really about common sense and curtesy.
Imagine I'm driving my convertible up to a quiet four way stop. I stop, look both ways, and notice a line of 20 bike riders pedaling towards the stop. Clearly BY LAW they have to stop, and are prepared to do so if needed. But I make eye contact, and waved them by.
Common sense and curtesy. Did they expect that? Demand that? No. Did I need to? No.
It's the same when you KNOW you are meeting a boat (or boats) racing. A hundred years of tradition says if YOU CAN, stay out of the way. Trust me, they will notice and appreciate that.
Scotty maybe it's different on your little lake. That's cool and roll with that. But don't extrapolate that situation into a wider definition.
and who wants a bunch of sweaty bikers in back seat of your droptop
Personally, I stay away from the racers. If they are on a different end on the course, I might cut thru.
Personally, I stay away from the racers. If they are on a different end on the course, I might cut thru.
Well, you are forgetting that the original post was about an a-hole who became extremely rude, cursing in front of kids, and was attempting to bully his way through a crossing situation simply because he was racing and the sailor on starboard tack was not. You appeared to be siding with the racer. That's why I take exception. Then you went on to say that a sailor who doesn't yield to the racers becomes the butt of jokes at the yacht club bar, whereas, if they did meekly get out of the way, they might enjoy a free drink. Believe me, nobody wants to have a drink with an a-hole.
Actually, the racers on my "little lake" are typically parents with teenage kids. They don't curse at each other, they teach their kids sportsmanship and manners. AND they adhere to the navigation rules because they share a "little lake" with multitudes of boaters who are equally entitled to cross the lake through their race course. BTW, their basic attitude is that any sail boat that happens to be in the race arena is expected to navigate in a predictable manner (at least that is what they hope for). If it means that they have to duck a starboard tacker, so be it. It's no different than having to deal with an unfavorable wind shift. They would rather a non-racing sailor navigate predictably than cause confusion by ducking when they shouldn't be ducking. The race boats are typically much faster and can come upon another sailor suddenly and in swarms, so they prefer predictability rather than confusion.
Actually, the racers on my "little lake" are typically parents with teenage kids. They don't curse at each other, they teach their kids sportsmanship and manners. AND they adhere to the navigation rules because they share a "little lake" with multitudes of boaters who are equally entitled to cross the lake through their race course. BTW, their basic attitude is that any sail boat that happens to be in the race arena is expected to navigate in a predictable manner (at least that is what they hope for). If it means that they have to duck a starboard tacker, so be it. It's no different than having to deal with an unfavorable wind shift. They would rather a non-racing sailor navigate predictably than cause confusion by ducking when they shouldn't be ducking. The race boats are typically much faster and can come upon another sailor suddenly and in swarms, so they prefer predictability rather than confusion.
Jack's right, again.
Scott and others: You have to understand that there are essentially two potential crossing situations.
ONE - The cruiser is going upwind and the racers are coming downwind. This is the case I see more often where inexperienced cruisers get freaked out. There's this whole huge wall of boats coming down at them, and they can't figure out how to duck. This is because in a good race with qualified boats, the racers are often bunched up together on their downwind legs, sometimes with spinnakers flying - imposing, but frightful to some non-racers. In this case, the cruiser could do either of two things: a) TACK and get out of the way because the racers are either on port or starboard tacks, and while they are required to maneuver to avoid the beating cruiser's boat, it is courteous to get out of their way; b) hold course and the racers will get out of the cruisers way like Jack said because it is a windward leeward crossing situation.
TWO - Cruiser is sailing downwind, racers are coming upwind. Usually racers can be spread out coming upwind, much less a big gaggle of boats in the same place, except at mark roundings (in which case the damn cruiser should be nowhere near the blinkin' mark!!! - courtesy again). Windward leeward applies again and the cruiser should (and is required to) get out of the way.
Of course, someone will chime in and say, "But, Stu, what if the cruiser is reaching?" Get out of the way, you're going as fast as your boat can go, 'cuz I have yet to see almost any boat where the speed on a reach is not the fastest that boat can possibly go.
And, Scott, if people are a-holes, that has nothing to do with racers or cruisers. I've had cruisers turn my ears red by their foul language, too.
Scott and others: You have to understand that there are essentially two potential crossing situations.
ONE - The cruiser is going upwind and the racers are coming downwind. This is the case I see more often where inexperienced cruisers get freaked out. There's this whole huge wall of boats coming down at them, and they can't figure out how to duck. This is because in a good race with qualified boats, the racers are often bunched up together on their downwind legs, sometimes with spinnakers flying - imposing, but frightful to some non-racers. In this case, the cruiser could do either of two things: a) TACK and get out of the way because the racers are either on port or starboard tacks, and while they are required to maneuver to avoid the beating cruiser's boat, it is courteous to get out of their way; b) hold course and the racers will get out of the cruisers way like Jack said because it is a windward leeward crossing situation.
TWO - Cruiser is sailing downwind, racers are coming upwind. Usually racers can be spread out coming upwind, much less a big gaggle of boats in the same place, except at mark roundings (in which case the damn cruiser should be nowhere near the blinkin' mark!!! - courtesy again). Windward leeward applies again and the cruiser should (and is required to) get out of the way.
Of course, someone will chime in and say, "But, Stu, what if the cruiser is reaching?" Get out of the way, you're going as fast as your boat can go, 'cuz I have yet to see almost any boat where the speed on a reach is not the fastest that boat can possibly go.
And, Scott, if people are a-holes, that has nothing to do with racers or cruisers. I've had cruisers turn my ears red by their foul language, too.
Jackdaw is just plain wrong. Stu, you are just describing windward-leeward crossing conditions - I've been in numerous so I don't need instruction. The navigation rules apply whether you are racing or not. The original post was describing a racer who happened to be WRONG and an obscene bully. There is no further justification for siding with a guy who was wrong.
About the 100 years tradition ... I call BS. It may be a tradition in the imagination of wrong-thinking racers. Besides, if you don't race, how are you supposed to know about this so-called "tradition"?
About the 100 years tradition ... I call BS. It may be a tradition in the imagination of wrong-thinking racers. Besides, if you don't race, how are you supposed to know about this so-called "tradition"?
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I am with Scott here. Sorry, i am surprised that all the authorities (celebrities?) of this forum are suddenly see it only one way.
Courtesy is something that you cannot demand. At best you can expect it, but if you do, be humble enough to accept that the other party is not willing to offer it. Not because he/she is an "a-hole", but because at this particular point in time he/she didn't/couldn't/won't offer that courtesy (for what ever reason (one being that they did not have a clue that it was expected)).
If I am biking and coming to an intersection (to use Jackdaw's example) I am prepared to stop and proceed only if the other drivers wave me through. If I raced through, it would be both illegal and inconsiderate of me. Is it that much different on the water?
I don't race sailboats anymore (I race in other sports), but the fact that you are racing in a public venue does not give you any better rights than if you are not. No question, I try avoiding the race courses (or race boats) as much as I can.
Btw. the amount of space the racers give the other boats is not even close to what many cruisers would consider safe (or acceptable). When you give way, you have to consider to whom you give way, not who you are. When you race cars on a track you often come within centimetres from the preceding car's rear bumper. This gives you a great tow. Would you like me to drive like that behind you on a freeway? Probably not; probably you would feel quite uncomfortable. Again, is it that much different on the water?
just my $0.02
Marek
Courtesy is something that you cannot demand. At best you can expect it, but if you do, be humble enough to accept that the other party is not willing to offer it. Not because he/she is an "a-hole", but because at this particular point in time he/she didn't/couldn't/won't offer that courtesy (for what ever reason (one being that they did not have a clue that it was expected)).
If I am biking and coming to an intersection (to use Jackdaw's example) I am prepared to stop and proceed only if the other drivers wave me through. If I raced through, it would be both illegal and inconsiderate of me. Is it that much different on the water?
I don't race sailboats anymore (I race in other sports), but the fact that you are racing in a public venue does not give you any better rights than if you are not. No question, I try avoiding the race courses (or race boats) as much as I can.
Btw. the amount of space the racers give the other boats is not even close to what many cruisers would consider safe (or acceptable). When you give way, you have to consider to whom you give way, not who you are. When you race cars on a track you often come within centimetres from the preceding car's rear bumper. This gives you a great tow. Would you like me to drive like that behind you on a freeway? Probably not; probably you would feel quite uncomfortable. Again, is it that much different on the water?
just my $0.02
Marek
There was a video on the news in Vancouver last week of a guy (abet in a powerboat) who turned across the path of a freighter in a marked channel and missed it by > < this much. The descriptor that was used was "stupid".
Right of way, courtesy and responsibility do come into play, and the rules are the guiding factor. Engaging in a race does not give you any more rights than anybody else.
Right of way, courtesy and responsibility do come into play, and the rules are the guiding factor. Engaging in a race does not give you any more rights than anybody else.
No special rights when racing but I yield ROW to racers and spinnakers out of courtesy and appreciate it when others extend the same courtesy to me. It surprises me to learn this attitude is not universal among sailors.
This would normally apply to anybody with a kite out, but I'll go so far as to suggest that a party barge pulling a couch is required to dump the couch immediately in front of you.
It happens here way more often than Murphy would suggest.
I don't think anybody has expressed that they don't extend the courtesy (of early avoidance). I certainly do when it is warranted and done early enough to avoid a conflict. The issue in this thread was about a racer who was decidedly abusive to a non-racer during a crossing situation. It doesn't matter why they were crossing. It only matters that the racer was wrong to assume that he could bully his way thru. To yield at the last instant, when other racers are converging, only creates confusion.
In the ORIGINAL post, it is clear that the poster was not really sure how close the pass was going to be, or even what the best action was when he thought he needed to take action. Clearly turning UP on a starboard boat is NOT the right thing to do. If the racer on port took no action, it was most likely because he thought he had a clean cross. Good racers can spot that a 100 yards away. Most cruisers freak at boat proximity that a racer would not blink at. Not sure where the so-called abuse came in.
No one is stating that racers have some imperial right when sailing, that grants them special privilege. But like in many places and many in things, there is a notion of letting some things by if there is little or no cost to you. Not in the dark, or not in 1000 foot ships, but in the daylight in 30 foot sailboats? Would you not bear away so someone else didn't have to gibe a spinnaker??
Yes there are rules, and for good reason. But common and traditional marine courtesy ARE are part of this. So is good judgment and common sense. The position argued by Skipper (and seeming you as well)
is what most people are disagreeing with.Skipper said:
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Not true, the original post clearly indicated that the non-racer was holding course until the last instant. The racer was cursing at him and demanding him to yield simply because he was in a race. The non-racer turned upwind because ducking would have caused a significantly worse problem with the second boat coming up from behind the 1st boat. This is precisely why the non-racer was justified in holding his course. He was forced by the racer to take evasive action which you think was incorrect. I've seen this played out before, only in my experience, the racers simply maneuver to avoid the non-racer when the non-racer is stand on. This is much simpler and easier on everybody's nerves. Knock it off about cruisers freaking out. That wasn't the case in this instance. It was clearly a case of the racer being wrong, pig-headed and obnoxious. So, swearing and cursing with kids present and bullying his way through a crossing conflict isn't abusive behavior? It is where I come from.
And, yes I have held my course sailing upwind while a race boat returning to the barn after the race was gybing their spinnaker to avoid me. They undoubtedly appreciated the exercise. It appeared to be a dad with his teenage sons . Nothing but a smile & wave as they went by.
If I turned downwind to avoid, I would have needed to add 2 tacks as I was sailing upwind on a narrow section of the lake. Plus, I would have entered a notorious hole in the wind. By gybing, the race boat entered a better wind slot. They were probably going to gybe anyway to take advantage. The point is, there are numerous reasons for sailors to be going in the direction they are going. A racer has no business speculating why another boat is crossing and they certainly have no business demanding or expecting them to yield.
But, in that instance, if the race boat was actually in their race, I would have tacked away in the opposite direction long before we even got close.
If I turned downwind to avoid, I would have needed to add 2 tacks as I was sailing upwind on a narrow section of the lake. Plus, I would have entered a notorious hole in the wind. By gybing, the race boat entered a better wind slot. They were probably going to gybe anyway to take advantage. The point is, there are numerous reasons for sailors to be going in the direction they are going. A racer has no business speculating why another boat is crossing and they certainly have no business demanding or expecting them to yield.
But, in that instance, if the race boat was actually in their race, I would have tacked away in the opposite direction long before we even got close.
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Scotty,
You're taking this personally and I'm not sure why. When boats meet, stories get funny as to what actually happened. You have to know I see and hear this all the time, 100s of times a year as a competitor, an official and as a general sailor. And based on my reading its not really clear what actually happened in that encounter. We'll never know. A racers 'last instant' is MUCH shorter than a cruiser's 'last instant'. Trust me I see that all the time as well. I can't tell you how many times people yell STARBOARD to me in mixed fleet racing when we are so far apart its funny.
But that's not what this is about, or at least not what I'm (and I think most people including the OP) are talking about.
I think we're about practice of yielding (when reasonable and possible) to other boats because it is the right thing to do. Like racing. Like spinnakers up. If you choose not to do that, that is your privilege under the waterway rules, but you're not going to make many friends on the water. Especially if you choose to (like Skipper seemingly does) to do so because 'its COLREGS' and 'racers don't own the ocean'. That's a bad attitude.
That's the only point I've every tried to make here. As many other have noted, this is common and well known courtesy. I'm not making that up. No one says you have to agree with it personally. But disagreeing does not make it untrue.
You're taking this personally and I'm not sure why. When boats meet, stories get funny as to what actually happened. You have to know I see and hear this all the time, 100s of times a year as a competitor, an official and as a general sailor. And based on my reading its not really clear what actually happened in that encounter. We'll never know. A racers 'last instant' is MUCH shorter than a cruiser's 'last instant'. Trust me I see that all the time as well. I can't tell you how many times people yell STARBOARD to me in mixed fleet racing when we are so far apart its funny.
But that's not what this is about, or at least not what I'm (and I think most people including the OP) are talking about.
I think we're about practice of yielding (when reasonable and possible) to other boats because it is the right thing to do. Like racing. Like spinnakers up. If you choose not to do that, that is your privilege under the waterway rules, but you're not going to make many friends on the water. Especially if you choose to (like Skipper seemingly does) to do so because 'its COLREGS' and 'racers don't own the ocean'. That's a bad attitude.
That's the only point I've every tried to make here. As many other have noted, this is common and well known courtesy. I'm not making that up. No one says you have to agree with it personally. But disagreeing does not make it untrue.
Again, I'm a new to sailing and have never raced (though I hope to crew sometime after getting more comfortable with sailing) so perhaps I should just watch from the sidelines, but the gist of what I'm getting out of this thread is simply, "Don't be a dick" be you a racer or a cruiser. A principle that holds up well in many facets of life, I'd say.
Scott, I think you're confusing the posts in this thread. In the original poster's story, there was no yelling, cursing, etc. The OP was concerned that the racer would not give way to him as he was required to do, so the OP evaded (in a way that may have confused the racer), and everyone sailed away. Kimelmore had a later story about being cursed at in front of kids while crossing a race course on port tack, but that's a whole different thing. The behavior of the racers kimelmore described is certainly reprehensible, but the racer in the OP story wasn't obnoxious or bullying as far as I can tell. My guess is that he was just going to duck the OP at the last moment and probably should've hailed "hold your course" to make that clear.
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