Advice on a bluewater cruiser?

[Joe]

You can put an arch on any boat. For all the stuff you're looking for, $100k won't do it ... especially with a 45 ft vessel where a complete suit of sails, modern electronics, a good tender, a quality wind vane, heavy ground tackle, new rigging, etc. will eat up half that budget in a heartbeat. You must also consider functional things... like will your cockpit drain overboard, rather than inside the cabin, if you get pooped? How safe is it to go forward at night in heavy weather. How reliable is the auxiliary motor (yeah, yeah, I know, think you won't use it..... but what if you actually need it to get out of trouble) Do you have enough proper ground tackle to survive a hurricane? You got to think about that stuff.... not whether you use an asymmetrical or not it's irrelevant. If you want to see a well founded offshore cruiser.... look up Amel Super Maramu https://www.boats.com/reviews/amel-super-maramu-a-cruising-system/
http://www.williamsandsmithells.com/used-boat/?BoatID=4039519

At the other end of the spectrum I suggest you read the book "Long Distance Cruising" by Bobby Schenk, or.... anything by Lin and Larry Pardey.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Keith, its an awesome goal.

I agree, very good writeup.

A friend of mine took his Catalina 34 from Vancouver BC to Mexico a few years ago. He wrote this:

Overall it has been a fantastic trip. I find it really interesting on the whole debate of what makes an offshore sail boat. It is unbelievable how much BS floats around and how many people have opinions but no experience based on the particular boat they happen to have an opinion on. I now believe it matters far more how the boat is prepared than what boat it is. Obviously you need a minimum standard in terms of hull integrity and rig strength and I think the Catalina 34 has that easilly. The question is can the boat and crew be prepared for offshore? I believe the answer question lies only with the skipper who does the preparation. In our case, we have had a fairly good shakedown cruise and I rate the boat highly. I've had "experienced" sailors who were aghast that I would take my family with no offshore experience in a Catalina 34 from Vancouver to San Francisco - a nasty bit of coast. And it takes some serious thought to call bull#### and say you're up to the challenge having never sailed in an ocean swell. I've also had experienced sailors who say go to the Marquesas and you'll find a lot of less capable boats than yours crewed by Europeans having the time of their lives. And you'll also find North Americans with real fancy boats with a lot of broken bits waiting for parts.

 

[Kings Gambit]

The design parameters/limits of the boat don't change just because the guy did not end up rolling over a couple of times in a tropical storm off Mexico which just happened not to appear that particular week. Yes, there is a lot of BS out there on this topic, and this is just more of it IMHO!Coastal cruisers on blue-water adventures can "win" by astutely playing the averages of sea conditions which, on average, are not severe--if not doing it too often, or not for too long, and not blindly. Doesn't change a thing-- the boat remains what it was designed to be.

 

[Eduard]

Check "westsail", "baba" or "Hans Christian"- they so nice, real bluewater boats. Size.... Start sailing-you'll may find that boat no more than 35 will be very good for single hand.... Good luck

 

[higgs]

I did not read all the replies, but did many of them. Ignore naysayers. I think the Caliber is your best bet. Forget the advise about crewing on a racing boat as racing and long distance cruising have little in common. I have sailed the Great Lakes for 35 years and have been through my share of nasty stuff. If you are going cruising you want a a boat specifically designed to cruise. Yes, a faster boat will get you there faster and allow you to dodge weather to some degree, but when you hit the weather, which you will regardless of the boat you have, a true cruiser will bring you through more comfortably and safer. The longer keel tracks better, which will require less effort from your AP which means less power drain. The heavier displacement means more storage. You will want a design that will not pound when heading into big seas. flat bottoms will pound. As you can see from my avatar, I have a cruiser and despite its slower speed, I would not trade it for a faster boat because it is comfortable and safe. I would go with the Caliber.

 

[Don Lucas]

Hello,
I would like your advice on what boat to purchase.

I think the boats you listed just fine for a cruising boat. This topic is a never ending internet forum topic that in general allows snobs of various levels to try to be experts.

 

[JamesG161]

I would recommend that if you want a bluewater boat, dont look so hard at brand names, but look at boats that have been converted and set up and proven as a bluewater boat.... im sure you will save a lot of money, and probably the only way your going to get into one for less than 100G.....

Do the above and enlist a reputable buyer's Broker. You have a basic starting list of needs, that are too general. As you note in your list, your market is too broad.
BTW my start list, and my "necessity" list changed as I roamed the huge market.
Shopping is fun too!
Jim...

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

Well, I suppose what I would like to do is a circumnavigation.
So...,, I suppose what I want is not a born and bred bluewater cruiser,...

such inconsistent thoughts are often indicative of someone with some goals which may far exceed his preparation

 

[Kings Gambit]

I think the boats you listed just fine for a cruising boat. This topic is a never ending internet forum topic that in general allows snobs of various levels to try to be experts.

I wonder if the Amel Mamaru owners website has so many postings requesting information on how to fix broken stuff as we see with any of the brands featured here. Humm... Of course, I do love my two favorite definitions of an "expert" which I'm sure are other's as well. "An expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less until he eventually knows everything about nothing." And the other: "An expert is anyone from 20 miles down the road." I suppose both could apply to some of these internet "debates." But then, I wonder why people come here to seek advice--there must be at least a few bonafide experts around.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

I've been reading the "Quest" series of books written by David Beaupre. It is very pleasant reading and should give you a good idea about what you want to get into. They restored a Bayfield 36 for their liveaboard cruising liestyle. Personally, I think you may be unrealistic about the size of boat within your budget, unless your budget is expandable for some reason. Purchasing a newish boat with outfitting already done, or re-fitting an older boat with great 'bones' within that budget will probably mean a mid-30's length (I think). Does your budget also need to include your cruising kitty? Where does the income to support your lifestyle come from? Personal question, yes, but is a factor in the boat selection. Larger boat, greater expenses, even when cruising.
Knowing your boat inside and out is pretty crucial when you need to be self-sustaining. 25-year olds don't typically start out with money to buy a (large) fully-outfitted boat and start cruising. I know that young people can have an extraordinary income, but it usually comes with a lot of working hours. Do you have time to outfit your boat? The author spent 3 years full-time, outfitting their boat. They did start out with no sailing experience, and their experience in boat ownership was nil, too. But he did spend 3 years learning what he needed to know in preparation for their cruising experience.
I'd also check out Sailing Simplicity - life aboard s/v Daphne. This may give you some perspective on simplifying your desires. The checklist of your requirements sound like a champagne taste, and energy consumptive as well (you will probably need to factor in a fuel consuming generator to power-up all of your wish-list items).

 

[druid]

I've said this before and I'll say it again: your first boat will NEVER be your last boat. I'd say what you're looking at is a nice dream, and certainly fodder for discussion, but what you actually BUY will not be what you end up with - guaranteed. Buy yourself a nice coastal cruiser (just about ANY coastal cruiser!) and cruise the coast for a few years. Find out what you like, what you don't like, how you like to sail, what your current boat lacks, what you LIKE about your current boat...
THEN think about actually buying your blue-water boat.

And although I've never been offshore, I'd go in with the folks that say seakindliness is paramount: even things like wet-locker, sea-berths, handles down below so you can move about while the boat's doin a jig...

druid

 

[centerline]

. Of course, I do love my two favorite definitions of an "expert" which I'm sure are other's as well. "An expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less until he eventually knows everything about nothing." And the other: "An expert is anyone from 20 miles down the road." I suppose both could apply to some of these internet "debates." But then, I wonder why people come here to seek advice--there must be at least a few bonafide experts around.

I dont think any logical person would disagree with your logic.
from your definition of "expert", we're ALL experts to some degree... bonafide, qualified, quantified and some who are most certainly certifiable.... its what makes a discussion forum work. if everyone agreed all the time about everything, there would be no need for a discussion

 

[Skipper]

I think the boats you listed just fine for a cruising boat. This topic is a never ending internet forum topic that in general allows snobs of various levels to try to be experts.

I haven't seen any snobbery. Only pure logic.
I doubt seriously that the naval architects and expert boat builders who produced the Pacific Seacrafts, Hans Christians, Cape Dory's, etc of the world would think themselves snobs, or inaccurate in their calculations of what makes a suitable ocean cruiser.
I'd recommend following their leads, regarding the very specific originally posted topic of what are true ocean -crossing vessels.
The list of dissimilarities between them and most of the OP's boats is quite long and detailed.
That was the original question.
The side notes, including taking a Cat 34 across an ocean, are interesting but do not directly address the question.
BTW if someone asked me to go to Hawaii on a Cat 34, I'd certainly go. If I knew the captain and vessel to be sound and equipped, it was the right season, and weather checked.
I'm an avid Catalina fan.
However, for long term cruising in many waters, I'd choose differently for my personal boat.

 

[centerline]

Personally, I think you may be unrealistic about the size of boat within your budget, unless your budget is expandable for some reason. Purchasing a newish boat with outfitting already done, or re-fitting an older boat with great 'bones' within that budget will probably mean a mid-30's length (I think). Does your budget also need to include your cruising kitty? Where does the income to support your lifestyle come from? Personal question, yes, but is a factor in the boat selection. Larger boat, greater expenses, even when cruising.
Knowing your boat inside and out is pretty crucial when you need to be self-sustaining. 25-year olds don't typically start out with money to buy a (large) fully-outfitted boat and start cruising. I know that young people can have an extraordinary income, but it usually comes with a lot of working hours. Do you have time to outfit your boat? The author spent 3 years full-time, outfitting their boat. They did start out with no sailing experience, and their experience in boat ownership was nil, too. But he did spend 3 years learning what he needed to know in preparation for their cruising experience.
I'd also check out Sailing Simplicity - life aboard s/v Daphne. This may give you some perspective on simplifying your desires. The checklist of your requirements sound like a champagne taste, and energy consumptive as well (you will probably need to factor in a fuel consuming generator to power-up all of your wish-list items).

I agree....
the majority (by a large margin), of experienced bluewater sailors will say that a boat 30-38ft is about the best size for the task.
going smaller is tough to find the room to carry enough provisions and gear, and a larger boat can be hard to manage when the conditions require an easily managed vessel... no matter if its in a storm or in a marina, a larger boat with a short handed crew can easily become a burden

there is a lot of information given in this thread and on this site (and elsewhere) about things that need to be considered when wanting to buy and outfit for full time cruising and ocean crossing....

if one were never read another paragraph on the subject. one should read the intro of Hal Roths book, Handling Storms at Sea... he is very knowledgeable and one of the best writers on the subject of ocean sailing, due to his experience and (pleasent) lack of pomp and ego that so many sailing authors carry throughout the books they write.
chapter 1 seems to be an interesting and informative continuation of the preface/introduction, but it will give a person something to think about their boat and themselves when planning for offshore cruising where weather or water conditions could be an issue......

 

[jssailem]

Keith. There is some great info shared here from boat owners/sailors who have spent years on the water. I am not yet in there level of experience but I am about the middle of walking stage.

One site to spend some time learning about what is a "bluewater boat" is: http://bluewaterboats.org

Sailing solo has it's own set of challenges. You can try it and learn from experience or you can read about it then try it. At least then you might survive the experience. I would offer the Singlehanded Sailing Society: http://sfbaysss.org/main/ is a good place to start. Andrew Evans book, http://sfbaysss.org/resource/doc/SinglehandedTipsThirdEdition2.pdf
will give you a chill or two when you learn what skilled sailors have experienced sailing across oceans.
You will need experience if you value life over luck. Offering your self as crew locally and then for costal passages once you know a little about sailing is a great way to build your skills. Sailing Lake Havasue in small boats can not prepare you for the experiences sailing the Northern Coast of California - to - Vancouver, CA.

Say your 75 miles out from the coast to give yourself room from the coastal water issues. A 1 inch thru hull breaks. It can fill your boat to sinking in 2 hours, your 12 plus hours from the coast at top speed in your cruising sailboat, and at that distance your beyond the reach of VHF radio communication.
Just an example of a possible event that can face a captain without warning.

Your quest is a good one. I encourage you to build skills/experience. Then go for it.

 

[william24424]

S & S 34 sells for around 35k, easy to single-hand, a few young folks have circumnavigated with this vessel. You'll have more money to blow on uber rides, tinder hookups, and beer...here's a photo from building seas before we turned back, check out the name of the vessel next to me out of Gloucester... be prepared & safe...Good luck.

 

[Kings Gambit]

S & S 34 sells for around 35k, easy to single-hand, a few young folks have circumnavigated with this vessel. You'll have more money to blow on uber rides, tinder hookups, and beer...here's a photo from building seas before we turned back, check out the name of the vessel next to me out of Gloucester... be prepared & safe...Good luck.

I really doubt someone barely born when the Andrea Gail met her demise would appreciate this picture or even know where to inquire the significance of it. Forgive me if I'm wrong.

 

[Davidasailor26]

I really doubt someone barely born when the Andrea Gail met her demise would appreciate this picture or even know where to inquire the significance of it. Forgive me if I'm wrong.

Cool picture. And give the OP a little credit, I'm pretty sure he could manage a little research

 

[gettinthere]

Stop.

You sailed ONCE in mild conditions for a few hours.
You have no idea of what offshore sailing is really like.
You need to find a way to get out there and experience sailing on the open ocean for an extended period of time before you commit much time and resources to something you may very well hate!

 

[william24424]

I enjoy these stories, Ken Barnes, Jesse Martin, Laura Dekker, and my favorite of all, Taru Tuomi...she's a world sailor, talented artist, gifted photographer, writer, blogger, and there's something else about her I like... getting off subject...My advice was to write a blog, keep a journal, photos, ect. of the process, I'm sure people would like to read how it all works out. There's a lot of useful advice on this thread as well. Good luck.