Advice on a bluewater cruiser?

[Keith Thorne]

Hello,

Before I begin, I apologize in advance for the wall of text you are about to read. Thank you!

My name is Keith, I am 25 years of age and I have only (day)sailed once in a small 30' boat in mild conditions off the coast of Santa Barbara, California with friends who knew more about it. I myself, am from Arizona, of all places, which means that I have cultivated a wild fascination with sailing the ocean, while simultaneously knowing dangerously little about it. Here is what I do know, however: I am not attracted to the classical definition of 'success,' nor the classic American Dream of owning two or three giant homes, 3 to 5 cars, a houseboat which you visit only on memorial day, two jet skis which you use on the same day, etc, etc. It is not for me. The thought of being tied down to all that stuff as well as two or more 30-year mortgages, disgusts me. To be 65 years old before I can actually enjoy life is a ridiculous future, a slave's life, and I don't accept it. But I digress...

I would like your advice on what boat to purchase.

Timeframe: Within the next 5 years, so keep in mind the depreciation of some of the newer models.
Length: I would like it to be between 35 and 45 feet of length.
Cost: (sail away) about 100,000 USD.
Purpose: Bluewater cruiser, comfortable in large crossings as well as live-aboard. I want to drop anchor in small bays and inlets primarily, avoiding docking where I can. Singlehand friendly, as it will likely be sailed as a couple or even alone. Additionally, I want to avoid running the motor as much as possible. If I could forgo using entirely, I would. For me, this means a boat that can sail efficiently under almost all wind conditions and directions, including light wind, heavy wind, upwind, and downwind.

Sails:

• Close Hauling: From what research I have done, this means a boat with a traveler, for trimming the main-sail for upwind efficiency. I prefer an arch-mounted traveler as it seems to be the most efficient place to put it, and the aesthetics of the arch doesn't bother me. In fact, I like the utilitarian feel of it. Also for upwind/close reach efficiency, a 110-150% overlap genoa.
  
• Reaching: I am thinking an asymmetrical spinnaker for beam/broad reaching under lite wind, the genoa for medium winds, a (furled) 100% jib for high winds. In storm, I cant see wanting to reach at all.
  
• Running: For running, I was thinking under lite wind I could wing out the genoa on a whisker pole and fly the asymmetrical spinnaker on the leeward. For medium winds, I think dropping the spinnaker in favor of a second furling jib sail (this time a 100% jib, rather than another genoa), also winged out would be efficient. I believe it is called a "Simbo rig." I found it here: http://www.cruisingworld.com/double-your-downwind-fun-two-jibs . For stormy weather, a storm jib/small stay-sail would be preferable, though depending on the storm I will likely heave to and wait it out. Also, should I look into a sea-anchor?

Features: As I said earlier, I want to avoid running the motor as much as possible. This means renewable sources of energy. I am thinking a cantilevered aft arch (could be after market) with solar, wind, and sensors that I can suspend the tender from, and a fore arch with the traveler on it. Yes, that is right, TWO arches! Again, at least one of them will have to be after market. I was looking at the new line of Beneteau Oceanis boats as a model for the fore arch (would install an aftermarket traveler), and the aft arch would also be after market. Again, the purpose of the rear arch is to suspend the tender, mount solar/wind energy sources, as well as all the other sensors, fishing pole mounts, flag mount, and other things I will want/need there.
I will of course require a good GPS/route plotter, depth guage, boat speed, and apparent wind speed gauges, etc. Perhaps a sonar would be useful for avoiding shoals?
I also want, though I can install it later, is a water maker/desalinater.

Accommodations: As for the number of cabins and heads, I think two cabins and one head will be fine, as that will save room for storage and may afford me a larger, more complete galley. The galley should have oven, burners, double sink, refrigerator, and freezer. Microwave would be nice, but not essential. As this is a space I will likely spend months, if not years at a time, I would like it to have as much lighting and ventilation (and insulation) as possible. That is, natural lighting from port holes and hatches as well as artificial lighting. I really like the look and feel of some of the newer yachts that have port holes in the side of the hull. Very neat, and they really serve to open up the feel of the place. Not essential, but highly desired!

Hull: As far as I understand, there are only two real options here, Aluminum and Fiberglass. The only thing I know is that aluminum is stronger and easier to repair while fiberglass is quieter(?), easier to mount modifications, and less expensive(?)

Keel: Keel is something that I really don't know anything about except that a deep draft keel will be more stable while a shallow draft will allow you to enter more shallow waters. Besides that, I submit entirely to your recommendations. My initial impression is that I want a shallow draft as I will be entering small bays that will have reefs, mudflats, and shoals that the shallow draft with be better suited to avoid. My second impression is that broaching during a large crossing could be fatal, so the added stability of the deep draft keel might be a better choice. I really just don't know. Thoughts?

Make and Model: Again, This is one where I am totally lost. There is a seemingly endless number of yacht manufacturers and it is somewhat overwhelming to try to sift through them. The bes advice I have heard so far is to buy a very popular and reliable make/model as parts for repairs and upgrades will be more readily available.

Which boats have caught my eye so far (unranked):

1. Beneteau Oceanis 38 (2014-present)
2. Beneteau First 40 (early-mid 2000's)
3. Beneteau Oceanis 40 (Mid-Late 2000's)
4. Beneteau Cyclades 43.3 (Mid-Late 2000's)
5. Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 40.3 (Mid-Late 2000's)
6. Caliber LRC 40' (Mid-late 1990's)
   
7. Elan 410 40' (Mid-Late 2000's)
8. Bavaria 38 (Mid-late 2000's)
9. Bavaria 40 Cruiser (Mid-Late 2000's)
10. Bavaria 40 Vision (Mid-Late 2000's)
11. Hunter 41 (Mid-Late 2000's)
12. Etc, etc.

Thank you for any advice you can give me. I have a couple of friends who own sail boats in California and one in Japan. My plan is to train with them or take classes before I buy my own, so don't worry about me buying one without knowing a thing about it.
Again, I appreciate your advice.

Cheers!
Keith

 

[woodster]

find a sailing club and go racing with them as extra crew every week in the evenings

 

[Gunni]

Keith;
There is a reason boats are 'she'. Would you ask a bunch of dudes on the internet for marriage advice? You are going to have date around with some boats before you find your dream boat. And then you'll have to settle for what you can manage and afford. A week long sailing class and this will get you started.

 

[Skipper]

None of the boats on your list match the established criteria for offshore passages. Although, in fair weather and with cruising mods most are quite capable of doing so.
You may want to hit the cruisersforums. Cruising mods and sailing strategies are discussed at length there regularly.
For a quick example of an offshore cruiser, google a Pacific Seacraft 37. Or Bristol 38.8. Or Cape Dory 40. Some of these plus many others might be in your price range, depending on age. And these boats are built so well that age may not be all that detrimental, if properly maintained.
Most replaceable parts on these boats are readily available, as they probably weren't made by the hull mfg anyway.

 

[Keith Thorne]

Than you for the quick replies! Skipper, what exactly are the established criteria for offshore passages?

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

Than you for the quick replies! Skipper, what exactly are the established criteria for offshore passages?

The overwhelming consensus is the first and most important criteria is the knowledge and experience of the crew. The manufacturer of the boat is largely irrelevant as he/she would know how to properly outfit and modify anything to do what you dream.

Experience is everything. You can read all about tankage, hull form, construction methods, keel shape, etc... but no boat exists which will save an inexperienced crew

 

[Rick D]

Here is a really good place to start: http://www.latitude38.com/crewlist/Crew.html#.VzJyJORliSo

 

[Skipper]

Than you for the quick replies! Skipper, what exactly are the established criteria for offshore passages?

It's a long list.
Very briefly:
seaworthiness is a clear requirement during design and construction.
A kindly sea motion is a huge attribute.
Reasonable speed, predictable and forgiving sailing characteristics, and ease of single handling.
Tankage and secure storage are also important.
Most discussions on this broad category will have roots in the above subjects.
Everything else is changeable; electric power sources, electronics, comforts, etcetera.
However, you have to ask yourself, "Am I really going offshore?". If not, many on your original list plus a large lot of others will suffice for coastal long range cruising. Possibly even more comfortably and fun than a purebred cruiser.

 

[Stu Jackson]

None of the boats on your list match the established criteria for offshore passages.

The Caliber certainly does.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ou-pick-to-go-down-the-west-coast-155958.html

Noodle around on CF there is a lot of good material there. Same damn question keeps coming up.

Than you for the quick replies! Skipper, what exactly are the established criteria for offshore passages?

While there, search on "bluewater". You can read forever.

Good luck.

 

[centerline]

are you looking for a true bluewater boat, or just a boat to cross an ocean with?.... a lot of the criteria you want is not conducive to a true blue water boat.
maybe its your definition of what a blue water boat is, as the word is commonly misunderstood....
a bluewater boat is one that can remain at sea for a couple months or more, taking all the weather god and mother ocean can throw at it.... within reason.
its NOT a complicated boat, but simple and very strongly built and without all the problematic contrivances that most coastal sailors want to have on their boats....

there are some good older boats that can be made into a bluewater boat at an over-all cheaper cost than a lot of the newer ones, and even those boats that are purpose built for ocean crossings still need equipment added, and to be customized by the owner....

I would recommend that if you want a bluewater boat, dont look so hard at brand names, but look at boats that have been converted and set up and proven as a bluewater boat.... im sure you will save a lot of money, and probably the only way your going to get into one for less than 100G.....

there are a lot of later model off shore or coastal cruisers in your price range that can cross oceans, and they may suit your purpose better, but you will still need to set it up to suit your style of living aboard....

 

[Kings Gambit]

Hello,

Before I begin, I apologize in advance for the wall of text you are about to read. Thank you!

My name is Keith, I am 25 years of age and I have only (day)sailed once in a small 30' boat in mild conditions off the coast of Santa Barbara, California with friends who knew more about it.

Cheers!
Keith

Here we go again! Keith, try looking over the thread at the link below.

http://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/who-needs-a-bluewater-boat.165789/#post-1147554

 

[whatfiero]

Sunfish or lazer would fit current situation perfectly learn how to sail then make big plans

 

[Rick D]

I think Centerline nailed it. There are bunches of cruising boats out there for sale equipped with dedicated gear that is worth far more than the unadapted boat. And, usually cheaper too since people are turned off by the personalization and appearance. But, I think the place to start isn't a boat selection or purpose, but crewing as a proof-of-concept for you.

 

[Skipper]

The Caliber certainly does.

Yep. I missed that one.

 

[Keith Thorne]

are you looking for a true bluewater boat, or just a boat to cross an ocean with?.... a lot of the criteria you want is not conducive to a true blue water boat.
maybe its your definition of what a blue water boat is, as the word is commonly misunderstood....
a bluewater boat is one that can remain at sea for a couple months, taking all the weather god and mother ocean can throw at it. its NOT a complicated boat, but simple and very strongly built and without all the problematic contrivances that most coastal sailors want on their boats....

there are some good older boats that can be made into a bluewater boat cheaper than a lot of the newer ones, and even those boats that are purpose built for ocean crossings still need equipment added, and to be customized by the owner....

I would recommend that if you want a bluewater boat, dont look at brand names, but look at boats that have been converted and set up as a bluewater boat.... im sure you will save a lot of money, and probably the only way your going to get into one for less than 100G.....
there are a lot of later model off shore or coastal cruisers in your price range that can cross oceans, and they may suit your purpose better, but you will still need to set it up to suit your style of living aboard....

Well, Centerline, I suppose what I would like to do is a circumnavigation. That being said, I understand that 95% or more of what my boat will do is island hopping, coastal cruising, and lying at anchor, if not pulled out for the hurricane season. I likely will not be entering northern latitudes, though I do have an interest in rounding the tip of South America. If my boat is not up for that kind of challenge, I could pass through the Panama Canal, though that strikes me as much less interesting and not very seaman like. So, with your comment in mind, I suppose what I want is not a born and bred bluewater cruiser, but as you suggested, a coastal cruiser that is outfitted and capable of the task, rather than bred for the purpose.

 

[Kings Gambit]

You need a boat like this one for serious passage-making, some people would say.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1977/Valiant-40-2634128/Portland/OR/United-States#.VzK3YNJdW-g

 

[centerline]

You need a boat like this one for serious passage-making, some people would say.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1977/Valiant-40-2634128/Portland/OR/United-States#.VzK3YNJdW-g

thats a nice boat shown in the link....
when we were boat shopping, we looked at a lot of boats, both older and newer (in our price range) and the older ones just have more appeal in almost every respect, when looking at it as an ocean cruiser.
a lot of the newer ones are too beamy and most seemed to be layed out more as a party boat than a true cruiser.....

but then we were NOT looking at boats in the 100G price range, which does give a few more options.... but the one we did buy had been previously refitted as a bluewater boat, and has been proven to be fully capable of crossing oceans.... for much, much less than 100G's..... hopefully, someday it will cross oceans again, with us on it

providing you have a solid hull to start with, its not so much the brand name of the boat, or the price of it, but its really all in how it has been taken care of, and upgraded over the years.....

 

[arf145]

It sounds like you've gotten way ahead of yourself Keith. Fantasizing about boats and a lifestyle is fun for sure, but you need to read more and do more. If you can, do some lake sailing where you are. Since you aren't looking for the whole chained to a job and success thing, move yourself closer to where you can do some ocean or coastal sailing. The more you see and do, the more obvious the boat selection will be. Though as others have pointed out, the offerings from the big 3 or 4 production sailboat manufacturers are not typically thought of as bluewater cruisers.

 

[inarathree]

Keith, its an awesome goal. Don't let others tell you that you cant. keep moving forward towards your goal. crawl, walk, run. First thing you need more than anything is gain experience. There are plenty of places to get that. Put up notes at the local marinas. Let people that you are willing to crew, start out with just afternoon/day sails, as you gain experience you may be asked to do over nights, longer trips, maybe to join a crew for racing. Racing is nice, but its like drinking the knowledge of sailing from a fire hose. Good, but by no means necessary. And unless you really want to go fast everywhere most of those skills can be learned just by sailing. Plus there are LOTS of racing that doesn't really go "off shore". There is a BIG difference between the off shore of going to Catalina and going to Hawaii. Keep in mind that most of the Volvo Ocean sailors (while most are world or Olympic champs) all came from basically dingy sailing. Very few of the woman on the SCA team had even been that far off shore, or crossed the Atlantic. We all start somewhere.

After you have sailed, maybe for a year or two (don't be discouraged by this time line), you will know what kind of boat you like... Maybe you like fast, maybe you like slow, maybe off shore isnt right for you, maybe you like the lifestyle of hopping marina to marina, anchorage to anchorage down the coast. Nothing wrong with that. I think we all dream of having time to do that (I do).

Now you are probably ready to start looking at a boat that will suit what you want to do with it. DONT get hung up on what a bluewater boat is suppose to be. You can go anywhere in the world and find boats that are basically floating crates, and say "how did it get here?!?!" class 40 racing boats do not fit the definition of a bluewater boat, yet they go around the world - fast. They are probably the safest boats out there. Most boats that are abandoned at sea, are due to the crew not being able to take it. Often the boat is found (sometimes years later) still floating.

While the boat is important its the sailor that makes the difference. The superior sailor is one who uses his superior judgement to avoid the use of his superior skills.

READ, READ, READ. DO, DO, DO. Become a student of sailing. Ask questions. Join several of the forums. Watch and read, ask questions. Don't let the naysayers get you down/distract you.

Sailing is important. Its the only real adventure left that you can do. Everything else you need to be certified, get permission, or have lots of money. With sailing all you really need is a boat and the courage to go.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Yeah--please ignore the sensible advice of the many sailors here who have skippered and maintained their own boats for many years and have travelled to many destinations in favor of someone who evidently does not own a boat, and perhaps never has, and who knows to what destinations has travelled by sailing yacht as skipper. There's the armchair, and then there's the actual doing of it all.