Puzzle me this: Marinas, Boat Yards

[Stu Jackson]

They've just never taken the time to figure it out, and just assume that doing the work themselves will "save money."

Granted, this doesn't take into account the people who do the work themselves for other reasons, such as wanting to learn their boats inside and out. That's a different subject.

I think Tim nailed it, but almost regardless of what someone gets paid, the "save money" assumes that a "pro" as you called it, is actually available. Many, many, many of us, have, for years, bemoaned the sad state of "marina technicians" and I personally have called the phrase "diesel mechanics" an oxymoron. They are few and far between. Those of you who have found good ones? Keep 'em! And let us know who they are. Same story here for surveyors. I know of only two "trusted" boat electricians here in the entire Bay Area.

And, just like "at work" when something isn't done right, it takes more than twice the time to fix it. I once had a "boat mechanic" run some hoses for me (until I learned to do it myself) and he insisted that he put a LOOP of hose into the muffler from the exhaust riser even though I told him I had a hump hose and that's what I wanted him to use. Within a month that loop has started to chafe on itself, and I had to do the hump hose myself, anyway!

I had a rigger put on our new ProFurl about ten years ago. Two weeks later I couldn't get the jib down. I called the yard and they sent that same rigger down. He got up on the pulpit and said: "The ********* who put this on didn't use Loctite on the threads on the extrusion." Inasmuch as he was that ---hole, I almost pushed him off the pulpit, but that wouldn't have helped getting it fixed. Maybe he didn't recognize the difference because the boat was in the water...

I believe the more you know about your boat the better off you are. It's a SAFETY issue if you think a bit about it. For the weekend-only recreational sailors who "depend" on SeaTow or Vessel Assist, maybe they can justify their income vs the cost. But for a majority of us who like to venture and stay out longer, and who have serious interest in the overall "How It Works" approach to things (which is where a lot of questions on this and other 'boards come from to begin with), I find it hard to justify having to pay someone to do something that I have to fix anyway.

Sure, there are things I'll let the yard do: bottom paint and rigging.

That's all.

Over the years I've redone our electrical system. I am currently replacing our hard-to-get-at hot water heater and hoses.

A few years ago our engine wouldn't start, no noise at all from the starter. I knew exactly what it was and just wiggled a cheap fuseholder that I had previously moved from a "hidden" spot to an easy to reach location. I knew what was happening. How many questions do we get on this board like, "My starter won't even turn over and my batteries are just fine, what do I do?" If I had $75 for each of those questions...

And, finally, take a look at this entire thread. The first response from most of us to the OP was to suggest that she consider doing a lot of the work herself, and explained why.

Good question, thanks for raising it.

Your boat, your choice. :dance:

 

[Chris Patterson]

Yes, my hourly rate is more than the marina. I do my own work for the following reasons:

- I want it done right.
- I want it done on time.
- I want to know exactly how the system works because there is not always a marina around to fix my boat.
- Mainly, I enjoy working on my boat.

Incredibly true.

I see this as well. An owner tries to fix it themselves, screws it up, and calls somebody. I guess some of these folks do it to "save money", but usually not. It IS a basic desire to learn the vessel, and rightfully so. And no, I never voice my opinions on the failed repair. My best lessons have been my mistakes. So we fix it. My practice wife was a physician. She would sit in the floor, and roll coins that she collected, when it would have been far more economically viable to just bury them in the backyard. Time versus money. An oft thought about equation, that generally boils down to entertainment value. She just enjoyed doing it more than likely, she wasn't that stupid.
Shoot, I work on other peoples boats most days, and have no use for a job. I say it's to support my sailing habit, when it boils down to I just like to work on them. You can't help but make money at it...

 

[MrBill_FLL]

"There is no plumber at sea!"

-NH, I know doctors and attorneys that do some of their own work, mainly because they want it done right, and so they know how to fix something when things go bad.

I will bet you, that things will go bad, at sometime. those are the times the knowledge to repair something is priceless.


at $225/hr that's $468k per year. assuming you can bill 40 hours 52 days a week. if I earned that much, I'd buy a new(er) boat that won't need work. (*er, as much work... they all break and need work)

the problem I see is you are not in a large boating market area, so vendors will be more limited than, say Fort Lauderdale/miami....


but if cost is not an object, just pay by the hour for work you want. (as I said before, start small, and pay the hourly rate).

Around here $95/ hr is a typical rate. (less for somethings...)

the way I approach service vendors is to let them know they are my preferred vendor, and I'm going to give them all my business. -this way they are less inclined to cheat me on a 1 time service.

if you have a sailing club, USCG power squadron, or other types of clubs, join them for the word of mouth connections.

the owner of the boat I crewed on last sunday does paint and general repairs. he picks his customers. he turns away business, and has been around for 15+ years. -he is always popular at the raft up.... he also has a choice slip near the cut for below market rates...


-Another boat I crew on lost his house battery on this years key west race. he does almost no work on his boat.. -we finished with zero battery , lights or gps... (at night in 25knts and raining!) -turns out the battery isolator came loose but he was unable to diagnose this, even after being becalmed for 3 hours mid race.... (he could have either tightened the nuts, or jumped the isolator).

This is not a boat I want to race on... again.



if you stay in boating, knowing some basics is important, and valuable.


again, best of luck!

 

[LuzSD]

I find that any job, home or boat, the more specific and contained your request is, the more likely it will be responded to. Imagine in any line of work, getting a laundry list from someone. Are you seeking direction, an estimate, what. All of that entails time (=money) and it may just provide you with your benchmark to take to the next yard.

You got a lot of really great advise here, I am impressed. As a woman as well, I would not be surprised if some part of the way you are presenting your request might actually hurt you..... but I agree, its not particularly a slight to you, but maybe realize you need to be very specific about exactly what you want done, with as much detail as possible. Do your homework yourself, brands, choices, etc. and show you have put a lot of thought and research into this, it will pay off in being taken seriously. I also like the suggestions about getting started with someone doing 1 or 2 on your list, then expand on these jobs after you have a sense (and they do about you as well) of how they work and the quality they deliver.

I have a very talented man that does carpentry at our house. The first job we had no idea of his abilities or his vision. After that he became my savior. I would have a vision, he would talk me through it (although we speak different languages ) and he makes my visions become reality. It is a relationship that had to grow first, from trust, interest in the work and shared values.

Keep looking for a person interested in your job, but maybe break it into 2-3 phases.

 

[toddorts]

I think Tim nailed it, but almost regardless of what someone gets paid, the "save money" assumes that a "pro" as you called it, is actually available. Many, many, many of us, have, for years, bemoaned the sad state of "marina technicians" and I personally have called the phrase "diesel mechanics" an oxymoron. They are few and far between. Those of you who have found good ones? Keep 'em! And let us know who they are. Same story here for surveyors. I know of only two "trusted" boat electricians here in the entire Bay Area.

I can understand that argument. I just purchased an old S2, and I picked the marina I'm moving it to based almost solely upon the availability and solid reputation of the work they do. I can do the necessary emergency work at sea if something goes wrong far away from home, but when I've got the boat in the slip, and I want something done, I'd just rather have someone I trust to handle the work. That way, when the weekend or vacation comes along and I'm heading back to the boat, it's ready to go, and I didn't waste my valuable time off working on repairs and upgrades rather than enjoying sailing.

But hey, I understand the people who genuinely enjoy working with their hands, and consider that part of the joys of sailing and boat ownership. I'm just not one of them.

 

[LuzSD]

I don't despise you. But, here's a big but, I think if you turn down a job, you should explain why and not say "market value". Look not interested in working on boat bc projects have puppies and your boat bc of my experience will have litters." That I might understand.

The sailor that said he put years into his boat is correct. If you plan to keep it, then the evaluation about whether its smart or makes sense is MINE to make.

I suppose when folks walk into my office I could listen to their woes and tell them no based on a lot of things. But generally unless they are cuko crazy and can pay, I try to help. I do that bc its what we are suppose to do.

Some of you have jumped to conclusions about how I've handled myself or what I've said. I find it funny. Hence my various explanations. But I've been nothing but nice and complimentary - but maybe my CAL isn't as sexy as another boat. So be it. We needed some work done a few months ago. Could have brought to yard, hired a lobsterman who we heard did such work. Had it done in less than three hours. Workmanship was fine for what we asked him to do.

The reality is that everywhere I have encountered the assumption that the BF is in charge. Just last night I was at the grocery store and they wished us luck on today's race - I was apparently going to serve pie every leg, to encourage the BF not to hit things. WTF. I was at the marina and was walking around and said hi to a guy passing me. He ignored me, and said How's it going to the BF walking behind me. And I went to the Women's Sailing Association Conference this year and listened to three female USCG Captains talk about when they deal with their yards they have to frequently remind them that its She who is writing the check and not the BF or Husband. These women have curcumnavigated the world.

If my BF made the call, it would be returned. And he knows less than I do.

I think it's easy to say it doesn't matter but unless your willing to wear my shoes then its brazen to say it doesn't matter or doesn't figure into your decisions.

The next time a female asserts herself I want a private message of the first word that went through your head (likely b.tch, overreacting, emotional) and when your buddy or co-worker does the same I'd like you to compare your responses.

And when I assert myself, I'm a ho or a ***** or "arguing".

Maybe what the boating industry could use is a little honesty it's self and its customers.

NY...You know, really, at this point in reading, (and when I responded I did not realize there were 7 pages to this post) I don't have much interest or respect for the way you have carried on here. You accuse those who have responded, of assuming many things and you 'find that funny'. After a few years on this forum, I realize any misunderstandings or assumptions are my own lack of explaining those details that are important. We can't forget that we all have different boats, different boat interests, etc. so we need detail from the beginning. You seem to be offended by the idea that being female should make any difference but you then throw out that you could show your boobs. The post you made above has nothing to do with 99% of the folks on this forum. I am female and pretty sure at least half don't know that or care. I am frankly embarrassed for you now and, though I wish you well in finding what you need in the way of upgrades, I now see yours posts as the argumentative type. You say you've lurked here for a while, but you have not gotten the essence of this group at all. You are lucky, some have read all your hot remarks back to those who've bothered to try to help you, and they are helpful and welcoming. That speaks volumes....... speaking of dialing it down (that's such an aggressive way of speaking) it would be a very good idea for you to do just that. Instead of firing off a sharp response, maybe just consider some of these points. We are not the 'boating industry' we are nice people who enjoy sailing, talking about sailing better, getting our boats just like we want them and asking each other for helpful tips. Please be nice here.

 

[captcoho]

I would check with independents who may be your best bet for that kind of work. Check Craig's List and bulletin boards at marinas and yacht clubs. Ask other boat owners in your area if they know someone who would do the work. We have several guys around here who will do that sort of thing at considerably less money than a boat yard would.

A lot of yards do not let just anybody come into the yards to do work.
They may have sign painters or canvas shops or riggers they use exclusively. And other then those people they expect you to use their mechanics and workers.

 

[Joe]

A lot of yards do not let just anybody come into the yards to do work.
They may have sign painters or canvas shops or riggers they use exclusively. And other then those people they expect you to use their mechanics and workers.

Exactly. The three different yards I've used in our area over the years allow DIY... but... outside vendors must be on the yard's approved list. We're in California..... it's mostly workman's comp, but a lot of other liability issues prevale, also. Yards impose their standards on their vendors that must be agreed to in writing.

You can DIY with a non paid helper, friend or family member, otherwise you have to wait till the weekend if you want to sneek your craigslist handyman in the yard..... and if he gets hurt, damages other boats or creates an environmental problem..... its all on your wallet.

 

[Stu Jackson]

There's the "yard" and then there's your boat in its slip. Some had earlier suggested that the bottom or hull paint be done in the yard, and the rest of the stuff could be done with the boat in the water. Our (California) marina allows workers onto the docks, which are not part of the "yard."

 

[Old Skool Neil]

Luz,

I liked you before but my goodness, your assessment and insight of this situation is remarkable. And your post - - - polite but firm. Thank you.

 

[Chris Patterson]

I must not know much, I'm still trying to figure out how to replace a seacock in the water, short of careening.

And no, I never knew that Luz was a woman. Never thought about it. Didn't matter. I think that was a small part of my point..

 

[Old Skool Neil]

And no, I never knew that Luz was a woman. Never thought about it. Didn't matter. I think that was a small part of my point..

I had the pleasure of meeting Luz and her husband a while back. Delightful people.

 

[woodster]

I had the pleasure of meeting Luz and her husband a while back. Delightful people.

i haven't met her but from all i have read of her post ....she is a class act with her feet firmly on the ground....and she loves sailing.....

regards

woody

 

[gettinthere]

I still do not understand wanting to pour over $10,000 into a boat worth less than $7000. That was sort of what the yard guy was alluding to.

If I was making $400,000/yr I would sail that boat for a year, as is, to get some practice; not worrying about the inevitable dents and dings that happen to newbies. Then I'd go buy a new Alerion or Morris or maybe Hinkley. Assuming one really does make that kind of money.

 

[Old Skool Neil]

This raises an interesting issue. The yard's only protection is a mechanic's lien on the boat itself and work exceeding the value of the boat also exceeds their protection.

If I were a yard owner or manager I'd consider requiring a payment bond or funds deposited in an escrow account in a case such as this.

 

[NHSailing]

@LuzSD


I'm not NY.
You don't know what I've thought about and haven't.
And as for the boobs comment, it's called sarcasm.

I think you need to follow your own advise. Read my posts again without firing off a response.

 

[NHSailing]

This would be a good example of one can be dangerous when they don't know what they are doing.

I charge $225 per hour. Billing 40 hours per week means that everyday all day I have to be doing something that I can bill the client for. That's not possible. It implies I don't eat, pee, or anything else. Secondly, there's a thing called taxes, not to mention things like overhead expenses. Then employees for whatever reason want to be paid. Crazy. Nonetheless, my ability to pay my bill is not an issue.

Again. It's my bill. If I want to pay it, my prerogative.

In response to LuzSD who dissertated on niceness: if you don't approve, don't reply. Don't even read. Move in to the next topic. The judgmental lectures are FUNNY, not on point and misguided/directed.

Just another point: I saw another boat I had an interest in - sent an email. Would you know, when the person called, they kept referring to me as,"HE".

Maybe on this list being a man or a woman is not part of the assessment. But you are fooling yourself, men and women, if you think for a second that you gender doesn't impact how you are viewed in given situations. Try the experiment: walk into a store that 'stereotypically' you wouldn't and then see how long it takes someone to ask you if you need help. Then send your other half in. You'd be surprised. Go have a conversation with your other half and an unknown marine professional and watch how quickly that person starts directling the conversation toward the male counterpart.

Look: it's socially constructed behavior. Unless you are aware of it, you can't stop it. And if you dent it's an issue you are part of the problem.

As for the DIY, I think I understand the two perspectives. I also think that because I continue to contribute SOME of you think that I'm suppose to agree and change my approach to handling my boat. I think that if you think I'm stupid or foolish about spending my money I earned the way I want so when I have the time to sail I can sail and be elbow deep in crap I'd have to learn how to do instead of sail, then I could easily pass judgment and think you should go make more money so you don't have to do that. It equally makes no sense. As far as putting money in a boat based on market value: I like the boat. I like her handling. I like that she is solidly made. She saved our lives in the not too distant past and I've got a soft spot for her. She's rugged. I don't like the new boats being made. They are cheap and crumble under impact. The reason why so many of us choose the older boats is because there was a quality, dedication to manufacturing, and demonstration that these boats - whatever brand or model- has withstood the test of time. Look at the years on some of these vessels. The CAL was built by lapworth with Jenson. It's a solid construction. http://sailboatdata.com/view_designer.asp?designer_id=64

 

[Stu Jackson]

Welcome back, NH. How's your process going?

 

[NHSailing]

@Stu,


I wish I could say I've been to the boat. :-(
I've been packing my office for a move this weekend (larger digs).

I did get what may be a silly contraption to get all the growth off the bottom and not put me in the water while doing it. Sadly my girl has a hairy bottom :-(. And it explains our inability to finish a race last weekend (along with ten other boats) - that and we think the Js stole the wind when they whizzed past the cruising class.

 

[Brian D]

Hi folks... What say we take the personal stuff out of the discussion. Personal experiences are OK and I see some good advise here. I hope to see more good experiences discussed and not nick-nacking about gender. So, please keep to the topic at hand and no more dissing others for their comments.

Thanks