Puzzle me this: Marinas, Boat Yards

25yearslater · Aug 18, 2013

Not kidding. Another project I did for a fellow who had the transom rot out so the trolling motor was ready to pass up the boat. Labor, Z row. Of course the swim platform and buffing were thrown in because I couldn't let it go looking as it did. The motor mount was subsequently reinforced with biaxial xloth and epoxy and all holes were epoxied to prevent water migrating in. He has been bouncing about Lake Ontario catching fish all summer now with no problems.

dlandersson · Aug 18, 2013

Good luck!!

Maine Sail · Aug 18, 2013

NH,

#1 What yard?

#2 I would urge you to start with small jobs and pay the bill instantly. If you want their full attention pay with cash..

This gets their attention.

Quoting these small jobs takes man hours and on a boat like a Cal 25 the odds are stacked against the yard that you'll bite on 6k - 15k +/- worth of work (at yard rates). They will have often burned a few hours for no return. Start small with them and once they know you are a good customer I am sure they will be easier to work with.

#3 Go in there in-person with a well researched list of what you want. What type of paint, topsides, bottom paint old stuff stripped off etc.? What type of job (quality wise) do you want? Do you want the looks good for a year job or looks good for 10 years (if topsides)? Know how many amp hours the CPAP burns to discuss how many batteries you'll need. We can help you with that. Showing them you are serious and have done some research can certainly help..

#4 Put yourself in their shoes. You are a new owner, have dreamy ideas (their picture of a new boat owner) about your boat that easily exceed what you paid. On top of that gave them a laundry list of items. They've been there before, trust me. They are as skeptical of you as you are of them based on past history of people doing the same thing. You may pay, and bite on the job, but many, many do not or do the job then refuse to pay...

#5 Approach them in person and specifically request this work be done in the off season/winter. Yards are always looking for mid winter work and owners always tend to want it done in the prime months.

#6 Look around at the yards these days and you'll see that very few even want the sub 30 footers because the pay is bad and they often wind up with them abandoned. They then have the legal issues that go along with abandoned boats taking up precious real estate.

That said there are some good yards in So ME and NH, and some poor ones too. I did not see in the thread where you mentioned the yard? If you can truck it up the Portland area there are PLENTY of good yards to choose from....

P.S. I recently spent 2.75 hours quoting a job I knew I should not have. Go to boat, meet with owner, suggest ways to save money and prioritize projects, go home look up parts, price it out, send him an estimate. I only did this because the boat was a family heirloom and he insinuated that he was dead set on seeing her go on for many more years.

In the end the owner decided to not do the work because the value of the work he wanted exceeded the value of the boat. It will likely continue to rot into his back yard and I lost 2.75 hours of my time I can't really bill for..... Sometimes its a no-win for the yard or service tech, sometimes a no-win for an owner.....

Tejas · Aug 18, 2013

Two comments, one on the original question and one on the ancillary posts.

As for the original question, at least some marinas seem more responsive to folks in the trade than to individuals. Although we bought our boat about seven years ago, I still schedule work at the marina through our dealer and get quick response, even for work they would rather not do. Folks who make requests individually say that they might wait months to get a slot on the marina schedule.

As for the ancillary posts, I tend to think that NHSailing has the high ground, albeit perhaps not particularly high. How do I know, but perhaps because she mentioned she is a fem, she might have gotten more attention than an unknown gender poster, probably an assumed male, might have gotten, and her responses might not have been quite what was expected. I think she deserves credit for persevering when I think I would have walked.

If after brief discussion:

- She wants to pay rather than DIY, respect that
- She wants to upgrade an older boat, respect that

It's her boat, it's her dollars, provide constructive information or no information at all.

Maine Sail · Aug 18, 2013

Crew,

WARNING!!!

After having just read through this thread I am sorry I was off cruising and not here to monitor this better..

The next hint of a personal level attack will result in a 1 month ban for the member throwing the jab. If you are a member with a recent warning it will be SIX MONTHS!!!!

You have been warned....

higgs · Aug 18, 2013

I don't think sexism has anything to do with the yards response. I think they look at it as a job not worth their time. Getting into an old boat is getting into a can of worms. They make a lot more money doing predictable jobs on new boats.

Stinkbut and Chris P hit the nail on the head.

Stu Jackson · Aug 18, 2013

NH, sorry, just occurred to me: you said painting, but we all, I think, missed it: painting the hull or using antifouling paint for the hull underneath the waterline? Sorry I made an assumption earlier.

higgs · Aug 18, 2013

Old boats are a can of worms and that is why your marima does not not want to get into it.

Maine Sail · Aug 18, 2013

NHSailing said:
The hull. Glossy black not the current white. With red lettering, striping. I am reading mixed reviews (old posts) on gel vs paint.

Depending upon the condition of the hull expect approx $150.00 to $250.00+ per foot for a gloss black paint job. These are the general going rates but are very dependent upon how much sanding, fairing, filling, grinding etc. the hull needs. The prep for the finish coats is where the cost is.

If spending the money to prep a hull for navy blue or gloss black (these colors show every little imperfection) then it would be a good idea to go with a quality 2 part paint such as Awlcraft 2000, Awlgrip, Imron or Alexseal which will easily last 10-15+ years if cared for properly.. The paint is actually a small portion of the actual cost of painting it is all in the labor and prep work.

MrBill_FLL · Aug 18, 2013

Well, pretty much all the senior members have posted in this (epic) thread now....

So, here's my .02,

You're a 1st time boat owner... aka newbie. You have a lot to learn, and will make mistakes.

We have all been there at one time. its why some of us post on boards like this...

You'll need to learn some basics to afford your boat. we are here to help you!

The nature of the marine business is, the good people do turn away work, and bad ones do inferior work and cheat you. -its hard to know who is who.. even for experienced sailors.

(not unlike construction, or auto mechanics)

personally, I would ask their hourly labor rate,
and how many hours to install a bilge pump and float sw.
( do that job, and pay the bill)

Then ask to do the anchor light, if you are happy with the 1st job.

you could also have a survey done. and ask the surveyor what recommendations they would make for repairs/upgrades.

-or pay the yard hourly rate while they do a walk thru and discuss work and options. (-might want to record it for reference )...

as long as you're willing to pay the hourly rate, they should want to help you.

-What you are asking for is kinda like taking a barn find MG to auto mechanic and asking him for a firm quote on a brake job, and how much to make it road worthy. -it will take him maybe 4-5 hours just to guesstimate a cost.

money talks...
Start small, see their quality of work, and proceed to bigger jobs, or find someone else.

best of luck!

ps:

ix:

Maine Sail · Aug 18, 2013

NHSailing said:
Could we really do it ourselves?

Yes, many do. For a DIY roll & tip is popular but for gloss black or navy blue I would not advise it for a first time try, especially if you are picky.... Lighter colors tend to be more forgiving for roll & tip...

MrBill_FLL · Aug 18, 2013

NHSailing said:
The hull. Glossy black not the current white. With red lettering, striping. I am reading mixed reviews (old posts) on gel vs paint.

red on black is not the best combo... not much contrast.... and quicker to haze/fade.

I would fix everything else before painting...

can we see some pic's?

this is your boat?
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=711

how is the head? engine? standing rigging? keel bolts? sails? running rigging? rudder?

many things to spend $ on before painting hulls...

(listen to MS's sage advise!)

LloydB · Aug 18, 2013

Went back to the original question as I like puzzles and that’s partly why I spend too much time on this site. Somebody’s always asking something old, new or in a new way. Even if the answer to a question is yes or no I don't recall a time that someone didn't embellish it a bit. There's always more than one way to skin a cat or gel coat it for that matter.
So: 1. Is this part of the reason why you guys do all this work yourself? YES.
2.As to “Please help me to understand this” That reason is not the biggest part. Bigger is that it's a sailboat. I like be able to speak in real sailor rather than boat driver and fix that boat as good or better than the OEM – myself. I'm a tool collector and a single handed sailor as many on this site also are. Although I don't have a wife anymore I am retired so still saving up for one and continuing on with purchases through self-justification. I suspect that part of what you are running into is the industry is attempting to avoid being the brick and mortar window for internet and less than serious shoppers. You could also have the same problem that I do but seeing it as a different issue than mine. An example is. Me going into a store to get a paintbrush and I ask the floor person where the paint brushes are and instead of sending me asks 'what do you want to paint?' and my answer is I want to look at the paintbrushes and if they again ask what I'm going to paint they have just knocked off my chip. I expect that they will next tell me I can't do that, tempting me to say 'watch this' just to prove I can.(which will be their stupid fault by the way) as it”s always best to place blame elsewhere it belongs
As far as ...is it because... I will try an example that may not get me banned although unlike MS forced to go cruising instead of monitoring this site doesn’t seem a sorrowful condition. So I've had many good chances to not ask the question(what?do you think that I'm stupid?) but did anyway - seldom to a pleasant result.

Ross · Aug 18, 2013

Yes you really can do the work! And it will be an education. But a very worthwhile one. The book sellers and the libraries are full of excellent books on the subject. Pay very close attention to keeping yourself safe while you work. I took a 30 foot boat built in 1968 and completely refitted it essentially from a bare hull. I think that I read thirty books during the process. All new mechanical systems, new interior design, new plumbing and new electrical. New windows, and rigging. We are into our 14th season and I am completely satisfied with all of my work. There is very little about the boat that would suggest its origins. Above the water line only the hull, deck and spars are original. the cockpit is completely reconfigured, the tiller was replaced with a wheel, the companion way is two feet higher than as built.
The boat is yours and you may do with it as you wish and we will be pleased to offer such help as you may desire.

25yearslater · Aug 18, 2013

I can assure you that you can gelcoat. I did and I am a slop artist when it comes to painting. The linear polyurethanes (Awlgrip Awlcraft) require specialized equipment as they are very hazardous to work with. Gelcoat has the additional advantage of being extremely durable and any runs can be sanded out during the finishing. Mainsail has a super good tutorial on buffing and several people here, myself included, can testify to successful results. A good quality neutral gelcoat is readily available at low cost from U.S.Composites. 50.50 for a gallon and a few dollars for the pigment. Gelcoat does have a dark side. Labor intensive wet sanding after the cure. Add Duratec High Gloss Additive for an easier time spraying and the shine is amazing. These coatings are good for rebuffing to maintain shine for decades.

25yearslater · Aug 18, 2013

Holy smoke that is a sweet looking boat. Check those bulkheads at the upper shroud chainplates. Something looks strange with the wood color. Here is a first time gelcoat job. The original color was cream and green. I have never sprayed gelcoat either.

Puzzle me this: Marinas, Boat Yards

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