Puzzle me this: Marinas, Boat Yards

[NHSailing]

Hi folks, we are new here

Random Question:

I have a CAL 2-25. I'd like to make her a boat that meets our needs for what we use her for; when I bought her that was my intention. She's not a Hinkley. But she's ours, solid, and I want her the way I want her:

Painted
Anchor light
Auto bilge
Better cabin lighting
Invertor/sufficient batteries to power the CPAP that keeps my boyfriend from keeping me awake
Some storage
The instrument displays have seen better days and aren't lit
Rebed the starboard side windows that leak
Get rid of the companionway slat and replace it with doors
Replace the deck hatch and insulation which leak
And possibly mount a GPS so I can stop screwing with a handheld


However, my marina doesn't do anything with speed or respond to emails. A boat yard I contacted who does all the work I seek questioned it based on the "market value" of the boat.

Has the boating industry rebounded to a point where they need no more money? Is it bc I am a "girl". Or ......

Please help me to understand this. Is this part of the reason why you guys do all this work yourself?


Thanks

 

[Phil Herring]

Boat yards are like anybody else: they like the easy jobs. But in fairness, they also want jobs that are easy to estimate. Oil changes, bottom painting, etc. with the help of a book or two, YouTube, and people on this board I'll bet you could do most of that list yourself, and have a hell of a lot fun doing it.

 

[Tim R.]

I agree with Phil. You should get them started with a single item or maybe a couple of the related items. A laundry list like that will not be cheap or easy to estimate. It they do all that work and you decide to leave them high and dry, they will take a beating.

Also, you and the BF should be able to tackle a lot of that.

 

[thinwater]

I doubt it's because your a girl. That sounds like a chip you don't need. Why did you say "you guys" do all the work yourselves" instead of "most sailors" or "most posters?"

I think if you add the list up at yard rates it's considerably more than the value of the boat. They worry that the owner will choke on the bill and not pay, and they will have a boat they can't sell for what they need. If you're going to buy a fixer-uper, you really have to be willing to learn man crafts. Besides, many of us feel that understanding maintenance and repairs is a part of seamanship.

Another alternative is to look at your list:

Paint. The way they would do it--first class--it is very expensive. If you are willing to learn good painting skills, do the surface prep and paint her with a 1-part polyurethane, the cost is far less. They're going to want $5000 depending on any damage, you could do it for a few hundred.

CPAP. My wife uses one. Probably 3 group 27 batteries or equivalent, assuming you are going to use soe of that improved lighting and a few fans. A charger, probably 150 watts of solar, and and inverter. DIY perhaps $2000, a yard far more. But screw up electrical and the boat burns. Also depends on existing wiring.

Displays. Forget it for now, you don't need them anyway. Not that many years ago they didn't exist. I've been sailing for 25 years (started late) and I only got electronics on my last boat. I don't use them much.

Rebedding hardware and hatches. Time consuming, but not hard. Read up and do it right. Butly for some, polyurethane for others.

---

My last boat was a Stiletto 27. I kept her simple and low cost and it was better that way. If I got her back I would still keep her simple.

 

[Bad Obsession]

I take pride in my boats. When I do the work to my boat I know it is done right. It also costs me a lot less to do it myself.

If you make a significant investment into your boat with blood, sweat, and tears the boat is worth a lot more to you. I know every inch of my boat and I know that if something is not right I can figure out what the problem is in an instant. That is peace of mind! Being a sailor is being self sufficient. If you ever intend to drop off of the grid for a while or do some long term cruising, the skills you build now will pay big dividends later, trust me on this one.

I would suggest making your list differently. Write out the list as priorities and figure out what projects need to be done immediately, soon, and later. Then look at the degree of difficulty in each project. Do you have the skills it takes to do the projects? If not can you learn them while doing the project? Check out youtube and other sites for answers on how to.

Another good resource, especially for the wiring, is Don Casey's book on simplified sailboat wiring. It is a great resource and it explains things pretty well.

See what you can do, you may surprise yourself and learn a lot of cool things along the way!

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

To Help Us Prove Our Point .................

Is this part of the reason why you guys do all this work yourself?

....................... post your first proposed upgrade which you feel is the most important to you and the BF. Include as much detail as is humanly possible plus pictures where applicable. Pictures always draw more readers here. The more the better.

We will then tell you where to look in the Search menu and/or you may well be shocked to find that several members may be currently working on (or recently completed) exactly the same project you're considering.

Many member here will not let a yard get anywhere their boats because yards cannot afford to provide the level perfection demanded. For others, they do it themselves for the savings. For me, I just get a real thrill out of seeing a difficult project come to fruition exactly as I had planned.

And if not, I tear the whole thing out and do it again until it is ^%&*#$ perfect :cussing:.

 

[NHSailing]

We actually do need the displays. They are very helpful to us. We live in a part of the country where shoaling is an issue and being able to match the depth up on the chart is a big deal. So is being able to see your compass in the dark with out the potential of night blindness.

As for the other advice, I hear you. Time is a factor both ways: we don't have a lot and I'm afraid of giving my boat over to have it delayed for launch in the spring.

I don't think there is shame in others doing the work. I don't think it makes you less of a sailor. I am in a profession where people try to go it alone all the time and I get to make money cleaning up their hubris. I don't consider myself a craftsman. I know what my limits are. And for some if this stuff, I'm simply afraid of doing it wrong with a huge consequence. I also think that it feels like making sausage - you don't want to see how it's made.

Postscript:

As for "girls"/"guys" - I'm not going to debate that here. I can tell you that disparate treatment is alive and well. Its not a chip. However I've been lurking on this board for over a year before posting today and overwhelmingly this board is composed of the male gender (Admiral? Your wife?). I think that guys is the understood form of "Folks" but then all the old persons would get upset. ?

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

First Problem Solved ...........................

We actually do need the displays. So is being able to see your compass in the dark with out the potential of night blindness.

........................ with a red LED flashlight. Red doesn't affect your night vision. This is a temporary solution until new, illuminated instruments are considered.

Although our instruments are illuminated, I still carry a red LED flashlight on deck for checking out the paper charts at night. We use paper charts first and the GPS as a backup especially when sailing at night. Making a mistake at night in freezing, island strewn, B.C. waters is definitely not an option.

I can't remember where I got this little flashlight a number of years back but a search of the web should produce more red LED flashlights than you can shake a stick at.

Second lesson to be learned ..................... always shop the web (and especially the SBO chandelry) for boating items. Waste Marine is only for those who don't know better.

 

[nolasafari]

I think you should ask the boatyard if it because you are a girl not anyone here. I view that as their problem, I view you as a sailor as they should do.

I don't see anything on your list that would be hard to estimate or do. You explained why you prefer to have the yard do the work and I agree with you, not everyone likes, wants, or has time to DIY. I don't think it needed to be explained in the first place. Have you spoken to the boat yard or just emailed them? If they are concerned about their money you can provide a deposited up front. The upgrades you seek are to make your boat seaworthy, safe, comfortable, and appealing sounds smart to me. I would contact other yards, the more you speak to the yards the more you will know how to deal with them. I do suggest you learn about the correct way the items you want done should be done so you can inspect the work or hire a Marine surveyor to inspect the work before you accept the work and pay the yard the final amount. I suggest this as a smart sailor would do this and it has saved me (Not always a smart Sailor) form accepting shoddy workmanship the past.
Best of Luck

Jim

Ralph, is correct about the red flashlight, I carry one on my key chain and it is handy for so many tasks. I will add good a good sharp automatic knife, one handed opening with a pocket clip and keep it on you at all times when on the boat, you never know when you will have to cut a line that has you are someone else tangled and in danger of injury.

 

[NHSailing]

Our boat is tiller steering. And, on an inadvertent night sail, it was tough to manage the flashlight, paper (agreed charts are the best option), the tiller, the navigational tools, and all the other distractions - really a bit daunting - and a pain in the tukus, while being moderately freaked out at the circumstances. I am not thinking of a GPS plotter, but just a GPS. We have a handheld with a plotter - and its tiny, but does what we need it to do to check it against the chart and what we are seeing when we need to do that sort of thing.

Being new to the boating scene where we are, I am looking for a good place to go for work, and *interested* people to talk to - when we first got the boat, we ended up where we ended up because of availability (things tending be done a year ahead), and cost. I was really surprised by the delays. A couple of weeks to look at the boat and give me a quote? Since then, I have asked a few more questions, and got non-responses. Investigating a new boat yard, I got the response I discussed in my initial post. It's frustrating. I have customers - they want things done - you do them. But, the boating world seems to work at a different pace or with an indifference that is foreign to me, and I think that is what the original post was meant to suss out.

I read a lot about boating and have all the classic books. As I said, I have been lurking here for a while now. So, understanding or identifying things is not so much of an issue, as much as it is the actual manual labor and feeling confident enough to trust the ability. I suppose it is like learning anything - you start small, and slowly the tools start to feel less awkward in your hands and you figure it out. The idea of spending the fall and winter freezing my fanny off in the cold, versus my other hobby - cooking, like baking warm toasty bread - seems more appealing to me.

One of the things I would like to do transform the port settee area into a countertop with an underneath apothecary type additional storage. In my mind, sounds like a plan - but I'm not a boat architect, and I am curious on how to account for the displacement any extra weight might impact - obviously it was not how the boat was built. So, I know some to ask the right questions, not enough to haul out a hammer, nails, glue-gun, and wood to do.

 

[higgs]

I would check with independents who may be your best bet for that kind of work. Check Craig's List and bulletin boards at marinas and yacht clubs. Ask other boat owners in your area if they know someone who would do the work. We have several guys around here who will do that sort of thing at considerably less money than a boat yard would.

 

[tommays]

That is and easy 10,000 dollar +++ list which will add limited value to the boat and most likely would be difficult to insure in the event of a loss

Things like paint if your talking about the topsides (hull) cost a fortune in labor



You also have to keep in mind pretty much everything on the boat like the simple looking port lights are made from unattainable and i cring every time i have to touch something like it

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

You Seem to Have Done Your Homework ........

A couple of weeks to look at the boat and give me a quote? Since then, I have asked a few more questions, and got non-responses. Investigating a new boat yard, I got the response I discussed in my initial post. It's frustrating. I have customers - they want things done - you do them. But, the boating world seems to work at a different pace or with an indifference that is foreign to me, and I think that is what the original post was meant to suss out.

I read a lot about boating and have all the classic books. As I said, I have been lurking here for a while now.

...................... so I think you're fully prepared to face the ugly underbelly of pleasure boat yards. What you've stated is exactly true. Same thing I've heard for years. Pleasure boat yards are halfway houses for career criminals, for the criminally insane, recovery houses for heroin addicts and worse. They are truly the bottom of the commercial barrel.

This is not to confuse pleasure boat yards with large dry docks and commercial boat yards of which we have numerous here in Vancouver and Victoria. I can only presume they must provide an extremely valuable service. Otherwise Royal Caribbean, Carnival, and Holland America cruise ships would not be dry docked here. The pleasure boat industry, however, is an entirely different story. IMHO most pleasure boat yards see the average boater as a sucker with money, both of which require separation from the other.

So as you see, as well as the many reasons which have been given here for why people choose to work on their own boats, perhaps the overwhelming truth is that quality and timely service in the pleasure boating industry is very rare indeed. If you decide that DIY is just not your dish, you have a long and difficult search in front of you. Most people you talk to will be useless bums but there are a few gems hidden out there and you're going to have a real job finding them.

But don't sell yourself and the BF short on the DIY route. You may surprise yourselves at your hidden talents and as previously mentioned, the work can be veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery satisfying.

 

[thinwater]

Call me "folks;" I'm old and know it!

No, there is no shame in contracting things out. For example:

• I'm good at wiring (engineer) and so that is very efficient for me, but it is also a smart place to get help.
• I sub canvass work; I can hand sew quite well, but sewing machines hate me, I don't have a good one, and I believe their rates are reasonable.
• I like painting. I learned the craft from my father who is both a successful artist and earned his way through college painting houses. I find it relaxing and I'm fast because I was taught a professional skill set.
• I contract out stripping. Hate it.
• I contract out waxing. Hate it.
• I have substantial home shop capabilities; if my resources were more limited there are many things I would not tackle.

And so forth. But unlike sausage, it is VERY useful to know how a boat is put together, so that when something happens far away, you can deal with it safely and with minimal disruption. There are many sad tales of trip ruined and boats sunk because the crew didn't really understand their craft.



There is certainly a middle ground.

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

You Seem to Have Done Your Homework ........

A couple of weeks to look at the boat and give me a quote? Since then, I have asked a few more questions, and got non-responses. Investigating a new boat yard, I got the response I discussed in my initial post. It's frustrating. I have customers - they want things done - you do them. But, the boating world seems to work at a different pace or with an indifference that is foreign to me, and I think that is what the original post was meant to suss out.

I read a lot about boating and have all the classic books. As I said, I have been lurking here for a while now.

...................... so I think you're fully prepared to face the ugly underbelly of pleasure boat yards. What you've stated is exactly true. Same thing I've heard for years. Pleasure boat yards are halfway houses for career criminals, for the criminally insane, recovery houses for heroin addicts and worse. They are truly the bottom of the commercial barrel.

This is not to confuse pleasure boat yards with large dry docks and commercial boat yards of which we have numerous here in Vancouver and Victoria. I can only presume they must provide an extremely valuable service. Otherwise Royal Caribbean, Carnival, and Holland America cruise ships would not be dry docked here. The pleasure boat industry, however, is an entirely different story. IMHO most pleasure boat yards see the average boater as a sucker with money, both of which require separation from the other.

So as you see, as well as the many reasons which have been given here for why people choose to work on their own boats, perhaps the overwhelming truth is that quality and timely service in the pleasure boating industry is very rare indeed. If you decide that DIY is just not your dish, you have a long and difficult search in front of you. Most people you talk to will be useless bums but there are a few gems hidden out there and you're going to have a real job finding them.

But don't sell yourself and the BF short on the DIY route. You may surprise yourselves at your hidden talents and as previously mentioned, the work can be veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery satisfying.

 

[Bob J.]

Hate saying this but if you were in big ass boat & had 100 dollar bills coming out of the portholes, everyone would be more than happy to take your money. But you're not in a big ass boat & most do not want to be troubled with going thru the "exercise" of putting together an estimate. I'm not trying to be harsh but finding people to work on your boat isn't like going to Angie's List.The reality/perception for most out there in the marine industry is it is an exercise because you're not going to spend that kind of money....

I'd suggest looking at other venues. You're looking for some carpentry work to enlarge your galley or put doors on the companionway. Check with the local lumber yards to see who they could recommend. Far as the rest, best learn the DIY route. It isn't glamorous but when a project is complete, it's kind of like standing back & admiring that wood pile you just sweated days over to stack.

 

[Bad Obsession]

You may feel like you are being treated differently because you are a woman, but the probability is that you are being treated differently because the marinas you are going to are unprofessional.

My experience with marinas is that they charge a lot of money. If you pay that money you still aren't sure what you are getting when you get your boat back from them. They may cut corners and do things to save expenses. Remember, they are trying to get the biggest bang for their dollar.

The quality of work doesn't matter as much in the marina industry. Why? Because they have a tight leash on the work that is done. Think about how many boats that are out there versus the number of marinas that actually do service work.

I get the run around every time I try to do a haul out. I absolutely hate trying to schedule it. There are two marinas where I keep my boat that do haul outs and they both charge too much for the service and the cheaper marina requires you to buy supplies from them (which are marked up an extreme amount). Marinas don't always call back, they are slow to get up with you, and they are all about making a quick dollar with little effort.

Sure there are some exceptions out there, but they are exceptions.

Some of the reasons that we do the work ourselves are pride, other reasons are to make sure the work is done right, some do the work to learn, most do the work to save money, and most do the work themselves to avoid dealing with the marinas. It is a pain! Your experiences are no different than mine.

 

[Merlin Clark]

I for one do my own work because this way I can afford a decent boat that I like. If I had the money to pay someone else to do this for me, I'd skip that part and just buy the boat I wanted in the first place.
I also enjoy making an ugly boat nice. My upgrades aren't professional quality but they make me happy, and my crew seems ok with my work too.
Nothing wrong at all with paying someone else to do the work but people who know what they are doing aren't cheap and when you consider what a mechanic or a plumber costs you might find what the yard wants for a job isn't out of line.
There is a lot of talent here and members are happy to help with "how to" advice. Heck, some of us have been known to roll up our sleeves and help with the work or share a part another member might need.
Welcome to SBO!

 

[hman]

Join your local Yacht Club

The cost of joining will be offset by the friends you make that love to help work on boats. In the small club I belong to, we have several machinists, wood workers and electricians that are more than happy to lend their expertise and a hand on projects. All it usually costs is a case of beer or a couple of bottles of wine. In your case, maybe a few loaves of that homemade bread would do the trick, you might end up trading your bread for their labor.

Living where I do, the nearest WM is 30 miles away, the nearest marine facility that actually works on sailboats is over 60, so helping each other out with our projects is a nesscessity.

As for dumping all that money into a boat that isn't worth it.....What is the price of love? If I added up everything I've spent on my 23, I'm sure I've spent far more over the years than it's "worth", but it serves me and my family well and we are happy with it.

 

[gettinthere]

I doubt it's because your a girl. That sounds like a chip you don't need. Why did you say "you guys" do all the work yourselves" instead of "most sailors" or "most posters?"

I think if you add the list up at yard rates it's considerably more than the value of the boat. They worry that the owner will choke on the bill and not pay, and they will have a boat they can't sell for what they need. If you're going to buy a fixer-uper, you really have to be willing to learn man crafts. Besides, many of us feel that understanding maintenance and repairs is a part of seamanship.

Another alternative is to look at your list:

Paint. The way they would do it--first class--it is very expensive. If you are willing to learn good painting skills, do the surface prep and paint her with a 1-part polyurethane, the cost is far less. They're going to want $5000 depending on any damage, you could do it for a few hundred.

EXACTLY

They've been around a long time and see nothing but downsides to delving into this. Any smart, experienced businessman will pre-qualify every potential client and pass on the potential loosers.
That is no slight on you, just reality.