Or maybe you'd rip them off... and that's their choice.
The best advice you've received, assuming you want them to do it all, is to build a relationship with a yard by starting off with a couple of jobs rather than a laundry list of them.
Puzzle me this: Marinas, Boat Yards
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The best advice you've received, assuming you want them to do it all, is to build a relationship with a yard by starting off with a couple of jobs rather than a laundry list of them.
I do not understand the connection between their candor and the suggestion they might rip you off.
From inside the yard..
Ooh. Man, life sounds tough on some of these other yards. Some close, others seemingly apathetic about a boat at all. And very odd.
While I'm the only contractor on this yard that could be considered criminally insane, at least I'm not dangerous. Okay, maybe a little, but not violent.
But here's a little insight. And you may despise me long before I'm over.
Here is one thing. Despite a "depressed economy", the marine business is doing very well. I personally turn down maybe ten jobs for every one that I do. And so do some of my compatriots. Myself, I don't need the money. If that sounds arrogant, whatever. I do it because I love boats, love to work on them, and it warms my heart to help out another sailor. I pick the boats, AND the people I like. Everyone else couldn't afford the work at any price. Rockefeller would cringe if he treated me with disdain.
My number one here is a mechanical genius. I don't say this lightly, I've only known about MAYBE ten mechanics in my entire life, probably five really. And he picks his jobs as well, he is that good. Sure, you can hire some half-assed hack. And that is the work you will get. Same for the body man here. Real eclectic sort, that is an artist with glass and paint. I've seen this guy on weekends, and late at nights GRIEVING over a small run under a swim platform. Second rate work? Negative. We have pride in our work, that our name is attached to, and it WILL not be done any other way than correct. And I promise you, that I have lost my ass on several jobs, because the universe just didn't decide to smile on that project, it did not go well, and I fixed it out of MY pocket, simply because it needs to be right, priority one. We love some of the hack yards around here, they're our finest customers.
On people. Male, female, something in between, or just uncertain. Could not care less. But wait. When someone thinks maybe we don't like them, could it be because, (and I AM NOT saying you or anyone else here is), one of a hundred different 'problems'. Gypsies, that have everything they own, hanging in tatters and rags all about the boat, virtually living off the land, wanting ten thousand dollars worth of work for free. First rate a**ho** that think that we're going to fall all over ourselves because they have a little money. Sorry dude, we couldn't care less. I could go on about the many other types that we deal with on a regular basis. CRAZY things. It sometimes is like a circus around here. That said, we like the odd sorts. And believe it or not, the return rate on customers around here is better that geico's. They get very good work, at generally better prices. With or without a boob shot. It is a pleasant distraction, but otherwise, we've got work to do..
And another thing. Or so. I work on several boats, where the owner is almost incapable of doing their own work at all. Even after a hands on tutorial about simple things. That's ok. Very wise words from the great philosopher Clint Eastwood: "Every man oughta know his limitations". Rightfully so. But as others have said, it is not an auto, or a home. If the home breaks down, you get no hot water or whatever. The auto breaks, you walk home. The boat breaks, and......well, you know. The situation can turn stupid in a moment. So do you want someone highly skilled at your bilge pump, or do you want to start learning basic DC wiring right about now? I myself can not imagine owning a boat where I had to hire someone else to work on it. I do it for others daily. And it is very expensive. I don't get to back my work truck up to the garage and start remodeling. If it is on the docks, I may have to walk a quarter of a mile for a small tool. You also can not just pull the boat up in my shop for a quick peep underneath. It is time consuming, labor intensive, and a huge liability just to haul and block it. Our lift operator pays eight thousand dollars a year in liability insurance to run the silly thing. Nobody rides for free.
I'm exhausted. Sorry. I guess it irks me to hear of the chop shops out there that give us all a bad name. Oh yeah, you see that yard guy over there that looks like he belongs in a soup line? If he's like me, he volunteers at them. Not in trouble with the law one iota. He likes your boat. And he likes you. Or else he will not give it a second glance. We like happy people. And some of us need your money, or another girlfriend like we need a flat tire..
Ooh. Man, life sounds tough on some of these other yards. Some close, others seemingly apathetic about a boat at all. And very odd.
While I'm the only contractor on this yard that could be considered criminally insane, at least I'm not dangerous. Okay, maybe a little, but not violent.
But here's a little insight. And you may despise me long before I'm over.
Here is one thing. Despite a "depressed economy", the marine business is doing very well. I personally turn down maybe ten jobs for every one that I do. And so do some of my compatriots. Myself, I don't need the money. If that sounds arrogant, whatever. I do it because I love boats, love to work on them, and it warms my heart to help out another sailor. I pick the boats, AND the people I like. Everyone else couldn't afford the work at any price. Rockefeller would cringe if he treated me with disdain.
My number one here is a mechanical genius. I don't say this lightly, I've only known about MAYBE ten mechanics in my entire life, probably five really. And he picks his jobs as well, he is that good. Sure, you can hire some half-assed hack. And that is the work you will get. Same for the body man here. Real eclectic sort, that is an artist with glass and paint. I've seen this guy on weekends, and late at nights GRIEVING over a small run under a swim platform. Second rate work? Negative. We have pride in our work, that our name is attached to, and it WILL not be done any other way than correct. And I promise you, that I have lost my ass on several jobs, because the universe just didn't decide to smile on that project, it did not go well, and I fixed it out of MY pocket, simply because it needs to be right, priority one. We love some of the hack yards around here, they're our finest customers.
On people. Male, female, something in between, or just uncertain. Could not care less. But wait. When someone thinks maybe we don't like them, could it be because, (and I AM NOT saying you or anyone else here is), one of a hundred different 'problems'. Gypsies, that have everything they own, hanging in tatters and rags all about the boat, virtually living off the land, wanting ten thousand dollars worth of work for free. First rate a**ho** that think that we're going to fall all over ourselves because they have a little money. Sorry dude, we couldn't care less. I could go on about the many other types that we deal with on a regular basis. CRAZY things. It sometimes is like a circus around here. That said, we like the odd sorts. And believe it or not, the return rate on customers around here is better that geico's. They get very good work, at generally better prices. With or without a boob shot. It is a pleasant distraction, but otherwise, we've got work to do..
And another thing. Or so. I work on several boats, where the owner is almost incapable of doing their own work at all. Even after a hands on tutorial about simple things. That's ok. Very wise words from the great philosopher Clint Eastwood: "Every man oughta know his limitations". Rightfully so. But as others have said, it is not an auto, or a home. If the home breaks down, you get no hot water or whatever. The auto breaks, you walk home. The boat breaks, and......well, you know. The situation can turn stupid in a moment. So do you want someone highly skilled at your bilge pump, or do you want to start learning basic DC wiring right about now? I myself can not imagine owning a boat where I had to hire someone else to work on it. I do it for others daily. And it is very expensive. I don't get to back my work truck up to the garage and start remodeling. If it is on the docks, I may have to walk a quarter of a mile for a small tool. You also can not just pull the boat up in my shop for a quick peep underneath. It is time consuming, labor intensive, and a huge liability just to haul and block it. Our lift operator pays eight thousand dollars a year in liability insurance to run the silly thing. Nobody rides for free.
I'm exhausted. Sorry. I guess it irks me to hear of the chop shops out there that give us all a bad name. Oh yeah, you see that yard guy over there that looks like he belongs in a soup line? If he's like me, he volunteers at them. Not in trouble with the law one iota. He likes your boat. And he likes you. Or else he will not give it a second glance. We like happy people. And some of us need your money, or another girlfriend like we need a flat tire..
Ask for estimates for the work. Labor and material cost will probably exceed the fair market value of the boat but that doesn't matter if you plan to keep it. People rebuild engines for cars because you then have a fine car with a brand new engine just for the price of the engine.
We do our own work because labor in most boat yards runs more than $75/hour and they rarely work as diligently as we work. If you have the work done you will have a fine semi custom boat that will serve you well for many years. I sail a 1968 Islander That I spent 9 years refitting. When I decide to sell her I doubt that I will get 25 cents on the dollar against what I have invested in her.
We do our own work because labor in most boat yards runs more than $75/hour and they rarely work as diligently as we work. If you have the work done you will have a fine semi custom boat that will serve you well for many years. I sail a 1968 Islander That I spent 9 years refitting. When I decide to sell her I doubt that I will get 25 cents on the dollar against what I have invested in her.
I hear what you are saying, in many ways. You make a decent wage and prefer to spend your time other ways than down in the bilge working on a boat. Just remember things break out there on a regular basis and the more you know about fixing them yourself the safer you are for sure. Check with your local marina(s) to find a good boat mech who will work on your boat in your slip or yard for you at much less cost than a rec boatyard. All I have ever gotten from a rec boatyard is lies, delays and added expense well above any estimate they gave me. Finding someone capable that will give you a more one on one type of work relationship has been the best way to go that I have found. Once you have the boat they way you want it learning to maintain it yourself from that point is important. Good luck !
I don't despise you. But, here's a big but, I think if you turn down a job, you should explain why and not say "market value". Look not interested in working on boat bc projects have puppies and your boat bc of my experience will have litters." That I might understand.
The sailor that said he put years into his boat is correct. If you plan to keep it, then the evaluation about whether its smart or makes sense is MINE to make.
I suppose when folks walk into my office I could listen to their woes and tell them no based on a lot of things. But generally unless they are cuko crazy and can pay, I try to help. I do that bc its what we are suppose to do.
Some of you have jumped to conclusions about how I've handled myself or what I've said. I find it funny. Hence my various explanations. But I've been nothing but nice and complimentary - but maybe my CAL isn't as sexy as another boat. So be it. We needed some work done a few months ago. Could have brought to yard, hired a lobsterman who we heard did such work. Had it done in less than three hours. Workmanship was fine for what we asked him to do.
The reality is that everywhere I have encountered the assumption that the BF is in charge. Just last night I was at the grocery store and they wished us luck on today's race - I was apparently going to serve pie every leg, to encourage the BF not to hit things. WTF. I was at the marina and was walking around and said hi to a guy passing me. He ignored me, and said How's it going to the BF walking behind me. And I went to the Women's Sailing Association Conference this year and listened to three female USCG Captains talk about when they deal with their yards they have to frequently remind them that its She who is writing the check and not the BF or Husband. These women have curcumnavigated the world.
If my BF made the call, it would be returned. And he knows less than I do.
I think it's easy to say it doesn't matter but unless your willing to wear my shoes then its brazen to say it doesn't matter or doesn't figure into your decisions.
The next time a female asserts herself I want a private message of the first word that went through your head (likely b.tch, overreacting, emotional) and when your buddy or co-worker does the same I'd like you to compare your responses.
And when I assert myself, I'm a ho or a ***** or "arguing".
Maybe what the boating industry could use is a little honesty it's self and its customers.
The sailor that said he put years into his boat is correct. If you plan to keep it, then the evaluation about whether its smart or makes sense is MINE to make.
I suppose when folks walk into my office I could listen to their woes and tell them no based on a lot of things. But generally unless they are cuko crazy and can pay, I try to help. I do that bc its what we are suppose to do.
Some of you have jumped to conclusions about how I've handled myself or what I've said. I find it funny. Hence my various explanations. But I've been nothing but nice and complimentary - but maybe my CAL isn't as sexy as another boat. So be it. We needed some work done a few months ago. Could have brought to yard, hired a lobsterman who we heard did such work. Had it done in less than three hours. Workmanship was fine for what we asked him to do.
The reality is that everywhere I have encountered the assumption that the BF is in charge. Just last night I was at the grocery store and they wished us luck on today's race - I was apparently going to serve pie every leg, to encourage the BF not to hit things. WTF. I was at the marina and was walking around and said hi to a guy passing me. He ignored me, and said How's it going to the BF walking behind me. And I went to the Women's Sailing Association Conference this year and listened to three female USCG Captains talk about when they deal with their yards they have to frequently remind them that its She who is writing the check and not the BF or Husband. These women have curcumnavigated the world.
If my BF made the call, it would be returned. And he knows less than I do.
I think it's easy to say it doesn't matter but unless your willing to wear my shoes then its brazen to say it doesn't matter or doesn't figure into your decisions.
The next time a female asserts herself I want a private message of the first word that went through your head (likely b.tch, overreacting, emotional) and when your buddy or co-worker does the same I'd like you to compare your responses.
And when I assert myself, I'm a ho or a ***** or "arguing".
Maybe what the boating industry could use is a little honesty it's self and its customers.
I read this as 'the other shoe dropping'.
Unfortunately, sexism is alive and well. It ain't right, but it's the way of the world. Fundamental change is heavy and slow.
In case it hasn't been offered before, welcome to the forum.
I'm beginning to think the original goal (boat improvements) has taken a back seat to other superfluous cultural issues.
When interviewing yards for your work please keep in mind you're playing their game on their field with their ball and their rules. Entering into the negotiation with preconceived expectations and demands is seldom the best strategy regardless of gender and you're finding the boat industry doesn't often follow a typical business model. Said simply, you certainly do not want a yard working on your boat if they're irritated with you.
My last yard experience was great. Don't make an automatic assumption it was because I'm a guy. I believe a lady owner would be treated the same if she had taken the same approach I did:
I'm beginning to think the original goal (boat improvements) has taken a back seat to other superfluous cultural issues.
When interviewing yards for your work please keep in mind you're playing their game on their field with their ball and their rules. Entering into the negotiation with preconceived expectations and demands is seldom the best strategy regardless of gender and you're finding the boat industry doesn't often follow a typical business model. Said simply, you certainly do not want a yard working on your boat if they're irritated with you.
My last yard experience was great. Don't make an automatic assumption it was because I'm a guy. I believe a lady owner would be treated the same if she had taken the same approach I did:
- Negotiate the work and pricing well in advance with the yard manager face to face. My policy is always polite but firm. You can't look someone in the eye and offer a handshake on the phone, by FAX or email. As my forum name suggests, Old School.
- Show up at the agreed upon time.
- Follow the yard rules regarding parking and outside contractors (if any).
- Clean up after yourself.
- Provide doughnuts to the yard employees early in your visit. It's a small gesture but goes a long way.
Welcome to the group NH.
Amid the banter there have been some very specific and very good suggestions on how to proceed. The learning curve is steep for someone who is not mechanically inclined (like me) but I have time to take my time with projects and figure out how to do them myself.
I like the suggestions to have the yard start with a couple of projects that are highest on your list, and the reasoning behind this approach. Which way are you thinking you will go with your project?
Remember to post photos, it makes the discussion come alive. (-Not like this discussion needs ANY help in that department
)
Amid the banter there have been some very specific and very good suggestions on how to proceed. The learning curve is steep for someone who is not mechanically inclined (like me) but I have time to take my time with projects and figure out how to do them myself.
I like the suggestions to have the yard start with a couple of projects that are highest on your list, and the reasoning behind this approach. Which way are you thinking you will go with your project?
Remember to post photos, it makes the discussion come alive. (-Not like this discussion needs ANY help in that department
)
Boat yards are businesses and like any other business there are large ones and small ones. They hire workers and workers may be very polite and competent or they may be rude or incompetent. The boss may be a jerk or the nicest person around and a complete con man. Yesterday when we were get ready to come home a pretty woman in a nice jeep arrived towing a ski boat. She was alone and appeared to know exactly what she was doing. Much of the work you described is not physically or technically difficult. The books are in print that detail almost every task involved in boat keeping. Nigel Calder is one of the best. And on this forum Maine Sail has posted several scholarly essays with abundant pictures that can be most helpful.
nhsailing--yes in water--most everything except bottom paint can be done in water, and dont let anyone fool you abou tthis. yes i am a gurlee also--and dont think i havent been conned by the best of em, as i am also a sports car freek..lol....
thru hull fittings can be done in water--yes i have had that done in more than 2 boats.
interior anything--in water...even on a mooring or anchor. lol i changed ou tmy diesel on a mooring. they may have 2 heads bu they aint always correct.
ok no wi am sailing in tropical waters an di have suffered a runaway diesel and some other fuel delivery problems--we gonna fix her ein pair a dice a s that is what i do--i fix as i flee..lol
by the way--my first near knock down was in a coronado 25.
i had a crappy cal 25--they are not bad even when crappy, actually. they are good sturdy lil boats that actually sail.
my sons first boat was a jensen wenk 24 i found for 800 usd, fiberglass and commissioned in 1958 ... great boat.
thru hull fittings can be done in water--yes i have had that done in more than 2 boats.
interior anything--in water...even on a mooring or anchor. lol i changed ou tmy diesel on a mooring. they may have 2 heads bu they aint always correct.
ok no wi am sailing in tropical waters an di have suffered a runaway diesel and some other fuel delivery problems--we gonna fix her ein pair a dice a s that is what i do--i fix as i flee..lol
by the way--my first near knock down was in a coronado 25.
i had a crappy cal 25--they are not bad even when crappy, actually. they are good sturdy lil boats that actually sail.
my sons first boat was a jensen wenk 24 i found for 800 usd, fiberglass and commissioned in 1958 ... great boat.
Don't know if the Cal 25 is anything like my old Cal 21 with swing keel. First boat I actually owned. Looking forward to seeing your pictures.
Pause... Just back from sailboat data.com. The 25s ate different but have the same old lines if my 21. Nice boat.
Pause... Just back from sailboat data.com. The 25s ate different but have the same old lines if my 21. Nice boat.
Let's look at this from the perspective of the yard owner who mentioned resale. They give you a price that you agree to. As they begin the prep work for a paint job, a structural defect is uncovered that had been hidden beneath some other item. Now they have to approach you with an additional expense. They are now into it for perhaps a 1000 bucks or so at this point. The repair brings it to an amount budgeted for the entire job. As I progressed I found more wrong with my boat that didn't manifest until the yanking and pulling occured. So now our yard owner has more invested in your boat than he can sell it for if you walk away. Perhaps offer an escrow account with the yard owner who mentioned the value of your boat would be enough to convince him of your sincerety. This is one of the big reasons we do it our self. Not many people are willing to take a risk on our older boats. There are just too many variables.
Zee, you did get you fuel/engine problems solved z while back, right? Are you sailing or on extended shore leave right now? You pick good areas to get stuck in you know.
Joe,
You did your own work I know, but from the get go you approached it as a restoration and not a long list of repairs. My point is that anyone talking about restoration gets an automatic bump in credibility when it comes to cost expectations (in my book). There is a greater assumption that the owner knows the project will be an expensive labor of love that will cost far more than just buying a restored boat that someone else took the money hit on. In other words the owner probably understands the potential for high costs with a restoration project, even of they aren't doing the work themselves.
Whew....this is a run away thread.
Everyone is discriminated against at sometime....yep, even us white males. It is inevitable. The thing is that we all need to learn to work around it.
Maybe the marinas in your area are treating you differently because you are a woman. Maybe it is because of the vibe that you may be putting off. Some men are uncomfortable dealing with a strong woman and it shows.
As Z said, get the out of the water stuff done first. You can then move the boat elsewhere to do other work. On a 25 foot boat you can drop the mast just as easily on the water as you can on the land. That is the same thing with the work inside of the cabin.
As I said earlier, prioritize your list. Then start small and have a yard do an important job, but not a huge job, on your boat. See how they do the work. If the work is good tip them.
A friend of mine hands off a bottle of decent rum for a good job. He never has a problem getting work done at marinas that he has had work done at in the past.
You may have to build a working relationship with the marina. Allow them to see that you are good on your word, you know what you are doing, and you are willing to pay. If you do this right it will make your task much easier. You can be opinionated, but do it in a subtle way. This is nothing more than every day politics. Trust me, if they like you they will work for you.
I hate having to wait on marinas or people to do things. In my world they are usually slow, late, and you never know what you get. As most have said here, start small and build your confidence on doing the work. Get advise when needed. We all weren't born with mechanical knowledge or boat working knowledge. Everyone learned these skills at some point. Some are better than others but with practice things get better. Start simple, dream big, and you will get there.
Everyone is discriminated against at sometime....yep, even us white males. It is inevitable. The thing is that we all need to learn to work around it.
Maybe the marinas in your area are treating you differently because you are a woman. Maybe it is because of the vibe that you may be putting off. Some men are uncomfortable dealing with a strong woman and it shows.
As Z said, get the out of the water stuff done first. You can then move the boat elsewhere to do other work. On a 25 foot boat you can drop the mast just as easily on the water as you can on the land. That is the same thing with the work inside of the cabin.
As I said earlier, prioritize your list. Then start small and have a yard do an important job, but not a huge job, on your boat. See how they do the work. If the work is good tip them.
A friend of mine hands off a bottle of decent rum for a good job. He never has a problem getting work done at marinas that he has had work done at in the past.
You may have to build a working relationship with the marina. Allow them to see that you are good on your word, you know what you are doing, and you are willing to pay. If you do this right it will make your task much easier. You can be opinionated, but do it in a subtle way. This is nothing more than every day politics. Trust me, if they like you they will work for you.
I hate having to wait on marinas or people to do things. In my world they are usually slow, late, and you never know what you get. As most have said here, start small and build your confidence on doing the work. Get advise when needed. We all weren't born with mechanical knowledge or boat working knowledge. Everyone learned these skills at some point. Some are better than others but with practice things get better. Start simple, dream big, and you will get there.
Continued rambling thought alert ....
And NHSailing hasn't flinched about potential costs at all. On the contrary she has made it clear that on the time money continuum, she has less time and willing to hire someone competent to help with a lot of it. More power to you, NH. Spend the money and get the boat the way you want it. Then get on to the fun part of sailing like 25yrs is doing, now that Yot is a completed masterpiece.
And NHSailing hasn't flinched about potential costs at all. On the contrary she has made it clear that on the time money continuum, she has less time and willing to hire someone competent to help with a lot of it. More power to you, NH. Spend the money and get the boat the way you want it. Then get on to the fun part of sailing like 25yrs is doing, now that Yot is a completed masterpiece.
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