Wind instruments - B&G wireless vs. B&G wired vs. ????

[dLj]

Auto pilot mostly for single handing.

I absolutely want an autopilot - especially for single handing. I consider it almost indispensable. For passage making even more so. In fact I'll be running both an autopilot and wind vane steering. But neither are tied to my chart plotter (well, I don't have a chartplotter....)

dj

 

[dlochner]

I find this comment very interesting: "The Chartplotter's memory is much better than mine, the data helps to make decisions about course and tacking when passage making. It can also foretell weather changes as it tracks the wind shifts." I'm going to have to think about this one a fair bit. Let me ask, do you find the decisions about course and tacking to be more useful close to land or when sailing into or around islands? I'm not sure I'm understanding how this helps for off-shore passage making. Your thoughts?

I find this most useful in medium length passages, say 40 to 100 miles. It shows me the trend and when it might be best to tack or jibe. Often the wind does not just veer or back, it oscillates the CP tracks the oscillations and can pick up the trends. Likewise with wind speed. How often do we delude ourselves in a dying breeze when a little puff comes by and we think, "Oh the wind is picking up" the graph illustrates our folly.

The disadvantage to using a tablet is short battery life and poor visibility in sun. On the ICW I used both a tablet with Aquamaps and the chartplotter. The iPad showed me what was going to happen in the next few minutes, while the CP gave me the big picture.

The CP is integrated with the radar and AIS. On overnight passages or in dense fog I have the information at my finger tips. And there is the entertainment value with the AIS, who's around me? Where are they going? Where is my friend? All this helps to fight the boredom that sometimes sets in on long slow passages.

I love to sail too, however I love to travel by sailboat more. When I leave the dock I want to end up at a different dock or harbor. The electronics make that process easier and safer. When the time comes that cruising is not a viable option, then I'll look to a small boat that I can sail about the bay.

Back in the day, I used to sail my Tanzer 22 across Lake Ontario with a compass and boom box. Eventually I went high tech with a knot meter and Loran-C. It was fun, I loved the adventure, I was much younger.

 

[dLj]

I find this most useful in medium length passages, say 40 to 100 miles. It shows me the trend and when it might be best to tack or jibe. Often the wind does not just veer or back, it oscillates the CP tracks the oscillations and can pick up the trends. Likewise with wind speed. How often do we delude ourselves in a dying breeze when a little puff comes by and we think, "Oh the wind is picking up" the graph illustrates our folly.

I wonder how useful this is on ocean passages. Thoughts?

The disadvantage to using a tablet is short battery life and poor visibility in sun. On the ICW I used both a tablet with Aquamaps and the chartplotter. The iPad showed me what was going to happen in the next few minutes, while the CP gave me the big picture.

If going with a tablet, I'd definitely have a power plug at the helm for the tablet. so it would have the same life as a chart plotter. I've been listening to discussions about tablets that are much better in the direct sun, but that does seem to be an advantage of the chart plotter.

On the ICW - I would very much agree - an integrated system would be very advantageous.

But I do not see the need for crossing oceans.

The CP is integrated with the radar and AIS. On overnight passages or in dense fog I have the information at my finger tips. And there is the entertainment value with the AIS, who's around me? Where are they going? Where is my friend? All this helps to fight the boredom that sometimes sets in on long slow passages.

I'm running radar and AIS, but on stand-alone systems. I do not have them integrated. I may explore that but I'm not going to waste much time on it. I think there is the need for people on watch to move around, so if they are getting bored then can go to the nav station and look. Dense fog is another issue. I'll run two person watches in dense fog.

I love to sail too, however I love to travel by sailboat more. When I leave the dock I want to end up at a different dock or harbor. The electronics make that process easier and safer. When the time comes that cruising is not a viable option, then I'll look to a small boat that I can sail about the bay.

I'm certainly embarking on traveling by sailboat. But I'm not coastal cruising. I'll be heading Chesapeake - Bermuda - Azores - Europe. I can't see a need for a chart plotter on that trip. I'll run OpenCPN, Navionics on probably a tablet (will see), my AIS system has a plotter in it (don't know how well it will work when away from the US - not counting on it in any case), I'll run paper charts and I'll have small handheld GPS units as back up. Of course I have a sextant, but really that is just for my pleasure...

I don't see how an integrated chart plotter adds anything more than a lot of $'s spent and the potential for a lot more time fixing things that stop working. I just don't see the point - not for what I'm going to be doing - neither in making it easier nor safer. But I guess I can't say I'm not running electronics. I'm just not not running these integrated systems.

Back in the day, I used to sail my Tanzer 22 across Lake Ontario with a compass and boom box. Eventually I went high tech with a knot meter and Loran-C. It was fun, I loved the adventure, I was much younger.

Loran-C - that was high tech. I used to use a radio direction finder..... I also had the early satnav system. You'd get something like a half dozen or so hits in a 24 hour period. That was hot stuff.... hahhahahahahhaha

dj

 

[jssailem]

with a dodger, bimini and all kinds of stuff slowing and blocking the wind it can be a challenge to keep track of the wind, especially when you can't see the top of the mast.

Adding stuff to the boat appears to take us away from the nature we want experience. At what point could we just sit at home and put on those VR glasses, spritz out faces from a bottle of water and veg out in front of a sun lamp?

Solo sailing at the helm is tough when you stand or sit there for 4 hours guiding the boat. On the other hand an auto pilot, or a secured rudder and a balanced sail plan can relieve person at the helm for a few minutes. Sometimes one just has to Hove-To for an hour to get a break or lunch.

During last week of October, 2017, we experienced a glorious end to summer. Warm days and chilly nights.

I started at DayBreak, Port Browning, North Pender Island Canada.

Cruised out of the Port and Down Haro strait into US waters.
Across the Juan D Fuca Strait - wing on wing.

Through Admiralty Inlet into Port Townsend.

A 10 hour passage of 55 nm. Arriving just before sunset. It was a glorious long day solo sail. I was happy that I had a working autopilot.

A compass, a laptop and a paper chart on the Nav table helped with the record keeping.

 

[jssailem]

don't know how well it will work when away from the US

AIS works in the coastal regions because there are shore based repeaters receiving and transmitting the data too all who have AIS units. When you are close to a commercial shipping route, running it will pick up the ship to ship data stream on the near VHF channel and give you information about the ship, it's route, speed and CPA. Outside of the shipping lanes you will not see much if any data.

You will still broadcast and the satellites, I believe, can receive/process your data.

 

[dLj]

AIS works in the coastal regions because there are shore based repeaters receiving and transmitting the data too all who have AIS units. When you are close to a commercial shipping route, running it will pick up the ship to ship data stream on the near VHF channel and give you information about the ship, it's route, speed and CPA. Outside of the shipping lanes you will not see much if any data.

You will still broadcast and the satellites, I believe, can receive/process your data.

So once outside shipping lanes it seems not worth the power consumption to run it - no?

Power consumption is a battle...

dj

p.s. I figured out how to get my radar aligned - it's just a function in the unit at the helm. Very easy to do.

 

[kappykaplan]

satellites, I believe, can receive/process your data.

Fairly certain you need additional equipment for Satellite AIS (S-AIS). Wiki is here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_identification_system

And more info on S-AIS from the European Space Agency is here:

Satellite – Automatic Identification System (SAT-AIS) Overview

Our mission is to connect Europe. We join engineers, entrepreneurs and investors to forge strong links between institutions, industries, and businesses.

artes.esa.int

 

[jssailem]

Makes sense. Since my transponder is sending signals if a commercial ship is near and has it’s AIS on, as required, their bridge will see my signal and I will see there’s.
Isn’t that true?

Does the system require interaction with a shore station?

https://www.marineinsight.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/AiS-Whitepaper.pdf

 

[jon hansen]

Does anyone just feel the wind, watch the water, look for navigation aids, and sail anymore????

dj

i do. plus paper charts.

 

[Davidasailor26]

Makes sense. Since my transponder is sending signals if a commercial ship is near and has it’s AIS on, as required, their bridge will see my signal and I will see there’s.
Isn’t that true?

Does the system require interaction with a shore station?

https://www.marineinsight.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/AiS-Whitepaper.pdf

There’s no requirement for a shore station in the usual collision avoidance use case. The receiving vessel picks up the transmitted AIS data straight from VHF. Shore stations or satellites pick up those signals for global vessel tracking, like what you see on marinetraffic.com.

 

[Davidasailor26]

I can't see a need for a chart plotter on that trip. I'll run OpenCPN, Navionics on probably a tablet

Just a reminder that the “CPN” stands for “Chart Plotter Navigator”. It’s basically a chartplotter without the dedicated hardware, and is capable of doing everything a chartplotter can do (and more than many plotters). For a trip like you’re planning where you don’t want to be sitting behind the helm the whole time it’s a great solution. For coastal or ICW cruising where you’re probably more glued to the helm having everything integrated into dedicated hardware on the pedestal can be more convenient.

 

[dlochner]

We have drifted way off the OPs initial question, but still a fruitful discussion.

AIS works everywhere. It is a VHF system that sends data on the VHF spectrum which is why you can use the VHF antenna (with an active splitter). The notion that it needs a shore based system is just wrong.

There are apps which rely on shore based systems, like MarineTraffic.com to provide AIS data, but that is for voyeurs and infrequent users near shore. Commercial applications are willing to pay for satellite AIS data because companies like Maersk want to know where their ships are but it has nothing to do with the value of AIS to a small boat in a shipping lane.

As a safety feature, it provides the name and MMSI of any boat in range with an AIS. This means you can hail the approaching vessel by name or if integrated with a VHF with a DSC call. A DSC call is automatically logged, handy incase there is a legal dispute about why you were run down by a supertanker.

Offshore sailors often carry PLBs, these are handy for finding bodies. If crew go overboard the vessel in the best position to retrieve them is the vessel they fell off of. There are locator beacons that broadcast a DSC emergency distress signal and an AIS distress signal when activated. This will provide immediate location information to all vessels within VHF range.

Putting all this information in a display at the helm is mostly useless until it is needed, then it is priceless. It's like the life raft. An expensive piece of equipment that you hope to never use and priceless when you have to use it.

Does one need all these electronics to cross oceans? Of course not, mariners have crossed oceans for centuries without them. Are they valuable and useful today? That's a different story. I think they are. Do they make passages easier? Yes they do.

 

[dLj]

Just a reminder that the “CPN” stands for “Chart Plotter Navigator”. It’s basically a chartplotter without the dedicated hardware, and is capable of doing everything a chartplotter can do (and more than many plotters). For a trip like you’re planning where you don’t want to be sitting behind the helm the whole time it’s a great solution. For coastal or ICW cruising where you’re probably more glued to the helm having everything integrated into dedicated hardware on the pedestal can be more convenient.

@Davidasailor26 - I forgot about that - you are right. So I am actually using a chart plotter, just a free one instead of spending $10K to $30K, or however much they cost...

I think OpenCPN needs to get a lot more attention. It's a really powerful program. it does as much or more than any of the high priced systems do, and it's free. If you are sailing in the US, you can get all the charts for the US free. There are a lot of charts world wide you can also get for free but not all. I just bought two sets of charts for the Azores and coast of Portugal, and then Spain and into the Med - I'll have to look, the Azores and coast of Portugal was 19 euros and I think the other set was about the same, might have been slightly more. I downloaded for free Bermuda - those charts had been created by taking google and Bing images and downloading them and converting them to charts. These are overlaid with depth information.

If I had the patience and desire, I could integrate into my OpenCPN all the overlays everyone is talking about, like my AIS, Radar etc, but I have bigger fish to fry at the moment so I don't have it on my hot list.

I was at the Annapolis boat show and there was a talk on navigation programs and the speaker asked the folks attending what programs they use. I was the only person that spoke up about OpenCPN. I'm sure there were others in attendance that also use it, but I was the only one that opened my mouth. The speaker was from one of the commercial suppliers and when I spoke up, he hesitated but to his credit he did talk about it.

I don't know why folks spend so much money on the commercial equipment and programs - if you want to spend money, donate to the developers of OpenCPN - use the free program and build your systems as you want them.

dj

 

[dLj]

We have drifted way off the OPs initial question, but still a fruitful discussion.

Well, we've drifted a bit, bot not completely...

And while we’re talking wind instruments, any recommendation for a more budget friendly companies? I plan to use this with a B&G Vulcan.

Look into OpenCPN. If you have the B&G Vulcan, see if they have a way to integrate that into what you are trying to do.

@dlochner see - I brought it back...

dj

 

[Tally Ho]

Does anyone just feel the wind, watch the water, look for navigation aids, and sail anymore????

dj

Only if you are using a wind vane

 

[kappykaplan]

Commercial applications are willing to pay for satellite AIS data because companies like Maersk want to know where their ships are but it has nothing to do with the value of AIS to a small boat in a shipping lane.

 

[Ward H]

So I am actually using a chart plotter, just a free one instead of spending $10K to $30K, or however much they cost...

Just to clarify for newcomers who are reading the thread, chart plotters can range in price from $750 to $3000 depending on size and features. Many are under $1k.

I’ve used OpenCPN occasionally. It’s a great tool for planning but I can’t see using it on a laptop at the helm in bad weather. And I don’t want to be running down to the nav station to check a marker while entering a winding rock lined harbor entrance
At the helm I want a CP and binocs to verify what I see with eyes when needed.

As with many things it all depends on the type of sailing you do.

I have 2 instrument displays for wind, depth and heading, AP display and a CP.
I also know how to shut them all off and occasionally do so I can sail by feel.

To borrow from Stu J, YBYC.

 

[dlochner]

I reflect on the Polynesian sailors that use no instruments at all. And I compare to our western movement to ever increasing reliance on technology.

A few years ago two traditional boats crossed paths on, of all places, the Erie Canal. The Hokule'a, a Polynesian catamaran and the Draken, a traditional Norse ship tied up in Sylvan Beach, NY. The Hokule'a used traditional navigation techniques and was towed through the Erie Canal. The Draken was powered by a diesel and had a full suite of electronics, radar, vhf, chart plotter, AIS and so on. The Hokule'a was built of fiberglass, the Draken was built of wood using traditional methods. An interesting mix of technologies between the two boats.

Modern chart plotters are much more than a navigation device. Ours is an AP controller, radar display, instrument display, tank level display, tide and current source, sailing tactician, route tracker, and more like, sonar display, video display, entertainment controller and I'm sure I left something out. I seldom use it actually plot a course, especially if the course has more than 2 waypoints.

My current favorite plotting program is Aquamaps. It is fully featured and very affordable at about $15 a year plus reasonably priced charts. If you have a late model Apple Silicon (M1 or M2) Mac it will run on the Mac as well as iOS and Android tablets. In addition to the usual features, it has the most recent Corps of Engineers soundings, wind data, swell predictions, and currents. Works best with a cell enabled tablet. Traveling on the ICW it is almost essential because of all the shoaling that happens along the way.

 

[Tin Kicker]

Just to clarify for newcomers who are reading the thread, chart plotters can range in price from $750 to $3000 depending on size and features. Many are under $1k.

I’ve used OpenCPN occasionally. It’s a great tool for planning but I can’t see using it on a laptop at the helm in bad weather. And I don’t want to be running down to the nav station to check a marker while entering a winding rock lined harbor entrance
At the helm I want a CP and binocs to verify what I see with eyes when needed.

As with many things it all depends on the type of sailing you do.

I have 2 instrument displays for wind, depth and heading, AP display and a CP.
I also know how to shut them all off and occasionally do so I can sail by feel.

To borrow from Stu J, YBYC.

100% agree with Ward

fwiw - I watched and found a brand new Vulcan 7 - which is a full CPN - on sale for $499.

The tricks and limitations to using tablets at the helm are:

1. Heat. Most will have the screen turn off when they get to about 95 F. It can quickly get that hot if in the direct sun and especially if in a case to keep it waterproof. I've never had this problem because I have the bimini over the helm.

2. Power. Running the tablet GPS and mirroring the Vulcan sucks power so the need for a USB outlet at the helm is important. I used a separate power brick for a while and that worked OK but then always had to tie it so it wouldn't slide around.

3. Visibility. The screen brightness is really important, even under the bimini. This is where most of the cheap tablets fail because they don't have enough nits. (The unit of brightness.) The early iPad Pro 11 works great.

4. Waterproofing. The tablet can be waterproofed cheap and easy with any number of cases made for the purpose. The harder thing is to keep BOTH ends of the USB cable totally dry. This is a critical requirement because one drop can fry the connector. damhik

5. Then the easy stuff like mounting and physical protection.

Sounds like a lot but it's really not hard.

 

[dLj]

Modern chart plotters are much more than a navigation device. Ours is an AP controller, radar display, instrument display, tank level display, tide and current source, sailing tactician, route tracker, and more like, sonar display, video display, entertainment controller and I'm sure I left something out. I seldom use it actually plot a course, especially if the course has more than 2 waypoints.

Yes, but then you have to have all the instruments you are looking at that can A) send a signal you AP and intrepret, and B) keep all those electronics working.

So you can't buy a CPT autopilot -a very robust autopilot that a lot of off shore sailor use - for example. My water tanks are measured with a sight tube. 0 electronics. My diesel fuel is measured with a dip stick - 0 electronics.

So for me, to take full advantage of a chart plotter, it requires far more than just one device. And from my perspective, it doesn't give me much more than a single screen of convenience. Something I just can't justify.

My current favorite plotting program is Aquamaps. It is fully featured and very affordable at about $15 a year plus reasonably priced charts. If you have a late model Apple Silicon (M1 or M2) Mac it will run on the Mac as well as iOS and Android tablets. In addition to the usual features, it has the most recent Corps of Engineers soundings, wind data, swell predictions, and currents. Works best with a cell enabled tablet. Traveling on the ICW it is almost essential because of all the shoaling that happens along the way.

I looked fairly carefully at Aquamaps. It does not have the charts I need for where I'm going to sail. If I was staying in the US - it's a fabulous program.

dj