Winch Grease

[Davidasailor26]

+1 to what Gunni said. Grease on the pawls can either stick them in place or lead to buildup in the grooves that would keep the pawls from engaging. If the pawls don't engage the winch becomes anything from a rope burn risk (no winch handle) to a weapon (spinning winch handle).

 

[Roland5048]

They say out of sight out of mind... Except for Roland. You do not want to let that guy out of sight.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

 

[thinwater]

OK, maybe I am missing something here. If so, please fill me in.

I usually coat the pawls & springs with a thin coat of grease for corrosion protection. I just smear it on with my fingers or a rag. I don't leave globs of it behind. If the boat is only going to be used in warm climates & the springs are strong, I use grease to lubricate the pawl. If the boat may go up north at some point, then I use oil on the pawl. If the boat may go to extremely cold climates, then I use dry lube with Teflon or graphite. The graphite can be a mess, so I avoid it when practical. In the lakes of Arizona, I use high temperature grease that has a drop off rating above 400F

NOT graphite in a marine environment. It is VERY corrosive to aluminum.

 

[thinwater]

That is a seriously flawed practice. Winch manufacturers provide specific guidance in this regard and the reason you don’t grease the pawls is captured in Andrew’s observation that his winch behaved like it was filled with silly putty. As grease ages it picks up debris and hardens. What you have done is to place a potential glue on your pawl and when a pawl becomes glued into its pocket your loaded-up winch doesn’t ratchet lock. The crew release the winch handle and the winch either immediately free-wheels or potentially later releases without warning. It is the reason we remove our winch handles from a working winch and NEVER grease the pawls.

Read the manuals for Antal and Maxwell. They say exactly what Jim just said. Thus, there may be different practices, but it is not "seriously flawed." That said, if you use cheap grease, too much of it, and don't clean them... well there you go. By the way, Antal grease is a little thinner than others, perhaps for this reason.

[From the Antal manual. Google it, I'm not making this up.]

LUBRICATION (Fig. 10)
When greasing a winch, apply using a brush on all moving parts including pawls, gears, spindles, shaft bearing washers, etc. Regular cleaning of the winch will improve it's performance and longevity. For winch and gear lubrication, use Type 400 (green) with Teflon.

 

[jon hansen]

 

[jon hansen]

no grease on pawls with harken. a small drop of oil. i'm a harken guy. but to have oil near my natural teak decks makes me concerned. a very small amount is all i want. is it not nice that the whole lube job takes only 5 minutes. lol

 

[Roadking Larry]

When I bought my Cal 2-27 it had a couple.of big ole Barlow winches on it. They worked OK but seemed a little gritty. A few weeks after I got the boat in the water I took them apart and cleaned and serviced them. Turned out they were 2 speed winches that were so crudded up they only worked as single speeds.

 

[Gunni]

By the way, Antal grease is a little thinner than others, perhaps for this reason.

Had a British car with a 'boot', and a 'bonnet' that spec'd 'grease' in the differential. Took me a while to figure out the hood from the trunk lid and that 'grease' was hypoid oil. It was definitely thinner than grease. A pawl is a pawl, they all work the same and I would never put a thickened grease on them.

 

[thinwater]

Had a British car with a 'boot', and a 'bonnet' that spec'd 'grease' in the differential. Took me a while to figure out the hood from the trunk lid and that 'grease' was hypoid oil. It was definitely thinner than grease. A pawl is a pawl, they all work the same and I would never put a thickened grease on them.

Antal grease is definitely thickened grease. I have tested all of the major brands in the lab and field and have tubes of each. Same with Maxwell. I'll also quite sure I have taken the Antal path for 35 years. I've also used oil. Just sayin' that absolutes are tricky. If you talk to the engineers at Antal and Maxwell, they don't take much stock in using what amounts to sewing machine oil for a heavy duty application. The corrosion protection is pitiful and it more or less evaporates in a year, if it doesn't wash out first. It works if you service the winches 1-2x per year, like Harken suggests, but isn't that silly, if better lubes are available? Perhaps our conventional wisdom all dates from a time before modern synthetic grease? I also have a hard time assuming that Harken gear lasts longer than Antal; we're not talking China, but rather another top shelf manufacturer.

 

[JimInPB]

...A pawl is a pawl, they all work the same and I would never put a thickened grease on them.

The pawls in my Penn fishing reels have been getting greased for the last 30+ years, with no failures from the practice. I haven't had any winches that I serviced fail from improper lubrication yet either. As I said before, I pick & choose the environments in which I choose to use grease on pawls. I also don't use too much of it.

I agree that in some environments some types of grease can turn to glue. I have seen that first hand. I agree that a stuck pawl can create a very dangerous situation. I am not yet convinced that grease on a pawl is necessarily a bad idea in all cases. You seem to have a very strong opinion that grease should always be avoided in this application. I am curious if you have first or second hand knowledge of any actual failures & if so, what conditions & events led up to the failure. That information would help me in reassessing the wisdom of my current practices.

Thanks,
Jim

PS,
I am not recommending that anyone go against a manufacturer's specific recommendation & substitute grease for oil just because I have done it in the past.


edited to add better clarification

 

[dLj]

The pawls in my Penn fishing reels have been getting greased for the last 30+ years, with no failures from the practice. I haven't had any winches that I serviced fail yet either. As I said before, I pick & choose the environments in which I choose to use grease on pawls. I also don't use too much of it.

I agree that in some environments some types of grease can turn to glue. I have seen that first hand. I agree that a stuck pawl can create a very dangerous situation. I am not yet convinced that grease on a pawl is necessarily a bad idea in all cases. You seem to have a very strong opinion that grease should always be avoided in this application. I am curious if you have first or second hand knowledge of any actual failures & if so, what conditions & events led up to the failure. That information would help me in reassessing the wisdom of my current practices.

Thanks,
Jim

PS,
I am not recommending that anyone go against a manufacturer's specific recommendation & substitute grease for oil just because I have done it in the past.

I am also very interested in the answer to this question as I'm right now in the process of rebuilding my winches. Also, reply with your location as in the case of Jim and myself, we are about as far apart as one can get in the continental US! He's in Florida and I'm on Lake Champlain...

I'm currently following Lewmar's recommendations and applying oil to the pawls and grease to the bearings. But as I'm doing this, I'm questioning if really oil is the best thing to use on the pawls for the exact reason Jim is stating above. Lewmar recommends re-lubricating every month, partial service a couple times a season, and a complete service once a year. That's straight out of my Lewmar service manual and frankly, I'm more afraid of loosing parts with such an intensive service schedule than loosing functionality. My winches are over 40 years old and replacement parts (except pawls and springs) are no longer available. Yesterday I dropped the top plate of one of my winches overboard and through the good graces of a young lady that was in one of the neighboring boats, she had diving goggles and was able to retrieve my plate. Thank goodness!

Those service recommendations come from the 1970's and with the fantastic advances in lubrication that has occurred from then to now, I believe that this may be a practice that is out-dated. That being said, what exactly are the modern lubricants that could be used while retaining the required functionality? Clearly, to be useful, this question needs to be answered with specific examples and details surrounding the case. I feel this could be a really beneficial discussion, especially for those of us with older winches that can't get replacement parts.

dj

 

[Davidasailor26]

Lewmar recommends re-lubricating every month, partial service a couple times a season, and a complete service once a year.

Wow, that's a lot of service. Newer Harken winches recommend overhaul and lubrication every 12 months. They do also say "Use a brush to lightly lubricate all gears, gear pins, teeth and all moving parts with grease.
Lightly lubricate the pawls and springs with oil. Do not use grease on the pawls!"

 

[Ken Cross]

We're out on the west coast in the rain. Lots of rain. I have had 3 sailboats that had not been sailed in years with no winch maintenance. The winches worked perfectly on each. I serviced them and they continue to work, but I haven't used the recommended grease. I've used fishing reel grease. Last time I used Superlube on the gears and light oil on the pawls and springs. I also use small quantities of grease and oil. In 18 years of sailboat ownership, I haven't had a single issue and I never service them more than annually.

Ken

 

[dLj]

I'm currently working on a 1977 Cherubini Hunter 30 so the winches are from 1976 (one of the winches I rebuilt yesterday was signed and dated inside - thought that was pretty interesting - the other one was simply signed). Of the 4 winches on the boat, 2 - single speed and 2 - double speed, one of each was not working. This boat has also been abandoned for some unknown period of time between 8 and 16 years. So I guess I'm not surprised. I re-built both single speeds yesterday and am about to head out to the boat (right after this post) to work on the two speed winches. I'm using 3-in-1 oil on the pawls and a waterproof light grease on the bearings. Looking at the inner workings of these, sure doesn't look like the boat was actually sailed much at all. It's just that all lubrication that was originally in them has now turned to solid black material. So far, it's been clean thoroughly, lubricate, put back together and running smooth and nice. I'm hoping for the same result today... LOL

dj

 

[Gunni]

The primary winches on a 41 foot boat are regularly loaded 1/2 ton or more, two pawls the size of a nickel, stuck in a pocket keep them from releasing catastrophically. Leaning over a winch cranking up a halyard and tensioning it to hundreds of pounds you expect that it will not release and windmill your hands, arms and ribs.

The purpose of regular field stripping, cleaning and lubricating your winches is to confirm your assumptions regarding their state of repair. A few years ago Maine Sail posted a long thread here documenting the failure of Lewmar Ocean series winch pawls. My Lewmar 44 model cabin top winches. Pawls were literally falling out of their gear pockets. What was even more troubling was that he was servicing them annually himself. The severe wear developed unexpectedly and had the real potential for catastrophic release. There are several paths to winch failure; dirt, neglected maintenance, stuck pawls, worn pawls, gear wear. Something got ahead of him, and not much does, he is very thorough.

Some of the racer boys in my marina rebuild their winches every few weeks and I have heard stories of relatively fast pawl wear, so it depends on the hours on your winch. But you are not going to know if you don’t take them apart and inspect the wear parts. Even if all you do inspect, wipe off/grease the gears and wash/re-oil the pawls it is an important boat maintenance. Inspect the wear on your pawls, test the springs and make sure the pawls snap crisply out of their pockets.

 

[MitchM]

just did my harkens 16T and 42 s according to their manuals. harken recommends at beginning of season and 1x thereafter and NEVER grease the pawls. and buy yourself the rebuild kit with the little escaping springs and pawls, so when one goes over the side you can still finish the job.

 

[dLj]

Some of the racer boys in my marina rebuild their winches every few weeks and I have heard stories of relatively fast pawl wear, so it depends on the hours on your winch. But you are not going to know if you don’t take them apart and inspect the wear parts. Even if all you do inspect, wipe off/grease the gears and wash/re-oil the pawls it is an important boat maintenance. Inspect the wear on your pawls, test the springs and make sure the pawls snap crisply out of their pockets.

(OK so I didn't leave right after my last post, but Gunni, you posted way to fast.. LOL) Actually, this point you are making is one of the major reasons why I am very interested in this discussion. I'm looking at the 3-in-1 oil (or light oil as stated in the manuals) and thinking that how can you know that the required lubricating film is being maintained in use? How about a light grease that stays put much better - and at the same time does NOT inhibit the functionality of the pawl. With my single speed winches I have no worries with the pawls failing as you have described, they simply become a spinning hub you can wrap a rope around. My two speed winches, however, are a very different story and what you describe is a very real concern! That is why, today, I am following manufactures recommendations. But I am also cognizant of the concern of wearing not just the pawl, which I can replace, but rather the ratchet teeth on the mating surface that I can't replace. That would require replacing the winch. I would prefer to keep my current winches and not have to spend that kind of money...

dj

 

[JimInPB]

The one pawl failure that I had was a result of me installing the part upside down. I did not realize that the flat on the end of the pawl had a slight angle on it & that angle made a difference. The ratchet seemed to work normally when it was first assembled. It held up well under about 1/4 of it's normal load. When it was loaded heavily, it let go. After that, it would hold about 1/10 of it's normal load for a while. Then after slipping several times, it got progressively worse. When I disassembled the ratchet, I found that the leading corner was gone off of the pawl. Closer inspection indicated that the engagement tip on the pawl was not a 90 degree angle as I had previously thought. Putting the pawl back in the correct way returned normal function. After years of use, I did not see any further problems from that unit. I have also had a few close calls. I have had a few winches that got less noisy after a while. Upon disassembly, I have found partially corroded, bent, or broken springs to be a root cause of the reduced noise. That is what started me coating all parts with a thin coat of grease for corrosion prevention.

When I use oil on a pawl, I usually try to get a synthetic oil, because it normally holds up better in the long run. lately, I have been using the same 0-40 weight Mobil 1 that my TDI runs on. I am using that one at this time because it is something that I already have in stock. I am not saying that this oil is better than other synthetics. It has worked well for me so far. Before that, I was using blue synthetic Penn reel oil, which also worked well & comes in an easy to use little dispenser bottle.

 

[Gunni]

I'm looking at the 3-in-1 oil (or light oil as stated in the manuals) and thinking that how can you know that the required lubricating film is being maintained in use?

You know by stripping and inspecting your winches on some regular frequency until you know the performance of your chosen lube. I wouldn't grease a pawl. period. But even more important is the number of stories we hear about guys taking down a winch and finding it full of dirt, weathered greasy gunk, corrosion and worn parts. Harken and Lewmar both sell a purpose-formulated pawl oil, why second guess them?

 

[rgranger]

Dang @Gunni
I feel a sudden urge to go service my winches

Thanks for the info and stories